The Instigator
malamuter
Pro (for)
Losing
0 Points
The Contender
bladerunner060
Con (against)
Winning
7 Points

white tiger breeding should be illegal

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 2 votes the winner is...
bladerunner060
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 12/27/2012 Category: Miscellaneous
Updated: 4 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 2,666 times Debate No: 28671
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (3)
Votes (2)

 

malamuter

Pro

white tigers are beautiful majestic creatures. you go to a zoo maybe just to see one. but there's something the zoos seem to forget to tell you. white tigers could not exist in the wild. they are inbred in captivity. white tigers are white because of genetic mutation. made white by breeders. think. where do tigers live? green places or grassy places. does a white coat help them camouflage? there is no need for a breed that lives in those places to have a white coat. being white in the wild is a define disadvantage. the tiger cant depend on the needed attack on their prey. no legitamite conservation effort has made any plans to release white tigers in the wild. white tigers that are born in captivity stay in captivity.

inbreeding causes other defects in these tigers. defects like bulging eyes and teeth spread too wide apart. white tigers are bred for beauty to meet th demands of the public. who wants to pay money to go see a defect? white tigers have to live with the pain of these defects. or sometimes killed for them. white tigers cant apologize for the people who bred them. other defects include immune deficiency, scoliosis, cleft palates, mental impairments, and early death. every white tiger has crossed eyes weather they show it or not. the white gene causes the optic nerve to be wired on the wrong side of the brain.
1 in 10,000 white tiger cubs will be white. none have ever been recorded to be an adult. because of the huge disadvantage if their white coat. normal tiger behaviors would prevent a white tiger from ever being born. 8 out of 10 cubs will die from the inbreeding needed to make the white show. they will die because we haven't yet put a stop to breeding white tigers. when two captive tigers meet both with the gene that make the coat white, 1 in 4 of their cubs will be white. what do we do with the other three? the breeders either kill or trade them. the next time you see a white tiger remember this: remember the little tiger cub who was killed because he wasn't white. remember the tiger who was born with a defect. stop breeding the white tigers. its cruelty not conservation.
(info taken from animal media)
bladerunner060

Con

First off, let me thank my opponent for setting the rules such that I can debate him. I'm new to this site, and appreciate the opportunity to "cut my teeth". That said, let me get right to it. Should I violate any norms, please forgive me (and hold me accountable, though, so I can learn).

I'll begin with some preliminary points:

My opponent has put forth the proposition that White Tiger breeding should be illegal. This is a different proposition than, say, tightly controlled. Or even "should be avoided by zoos". Many zoos have begun to make their own decision to not breed White Tigers any more.

"...William Conway, director of the NY Zoological Association, which later became known as the Bronx zoo...said, "White tigers are freaks. It's not the role of a zoo to show two headed calves and white tigers." "[1]

This is a legitimate point on the part of zoos; it is, however, not my opponent's point.

Tigers are, in general, an endangered species, across the board. I argue that ALL efforts to preserve them serve the purpose of conserving the species as a whole, provided those efforts are undertaken with some measure of responsibility. I concede that IRRESPONSIBLE breeding of White Tigers can lead to unnecessary Tiger deaths, and can drain resources away from conserving Tigers that have not been inbred to the point of deficiency, I argue that White Tiger breeding should perhaps be limited, controlled, or regulated, but not completely banned.

White Tigers are pretty, and pretty animals get attention. I think that's a premise that can be accepted easily by my opponent. So-called "cute" animals aren't eaten, but pigs and cows go right onto the chopping block. In much the same way, aesthetics may be a reason for the breeding of Tigers in the first place, and preventing the White Tiger breeding may not free up resources for "Regular" Tiger breeding, but rather prevent the breeding at all. Siegfried and Roy might not have chosen Tigers at all if there hadn't been any white ones. And some zoos may see an uptick in attendance when they have White Tigers. While not convincing arguments for preferring White Tiger breeding by any means, I do not believe that limiting the breeding should be done unless absolutely necessary.

Since my opponent opened with some points, I'd like to address them. For the sake of character limits, I may use ellipsis to draw the reader's attention to the original comment while still making this response of a readable length.

"white tigers could not exist in the wild. they are inbred in captivity. white tigers are white because of genetic mutation. made white by breeders."

While it is true that many White Tigers are "inbred in captivity", it is flatly untrue that they "could not exist in the wild". To prove that:

"Rewa Maharaja Martand Singh first observed male white tiger Mohan during his visit to Govindgarh jungle at Rewa, Madhya Pradesh, India. After hunting for months, he was able to capture the first living white tiger seen in nature." "Estimations show that around one in 15,000 wild Bengal tiger births will result in a white tiger." "Siegfried & Roy performed at least one outcross.[27] In the mid-1980s they offered to work with the Indian government in the creation of a healthier strain of white tigers." [1]

They can exist in the wild, and are not necessarily inbred, although I'd certainly concede the point that they are for the most part; this is not, however, a debate about how well the White Tiger breeders behave, but whether it should be allowed to breed them at all.

"think. where do tigers live? green places or grassy places...the tiger cant depend on the needed attack on their prey."

This point is unsupported. While it would seem to make sense, at the same time it is known that they have been known to exist in the wild, albeit in small numbers. Before I can accept the "evolutionary argument", I'd need to see it backed up. However, even if it were backed up, it would not necessarily mean that White Tiger breeding should be outlawed. There are many species of dogs, for example, that would never survive without humans, but we allow their breeding. I would rebut the "they shouldn't even exist evolution-wise" (if it were accepted as true...I actually have some arguments against its very validity, but I request my opponent back up the point before I attack it, since they are the one who presented the point in the first place) by saying that that doesn't matter. White Tigers can breed "Normal" Tigers, if putting Tigers back into the wild is the goal; further, as noted below, it may be possible to introduce White Tigers themselves into the wild, so the point may be completely invalid.

"no legitamite conservation effort has made any plans to release white tigers in the wild. white tigers that are born in captivity stay in captivity."

So are most "Normal" Tigers. However, there have been efforts to reintroduce them into the wild. I have only the following link, but the blanket statement that there have been no efforts whatsoever to reintroduce them, I think, would be falsified by it (while at the same time I concede that this may not have been a "legitimate" conservation effort, particularly since I didn't find more about it and it's from 2010):

http://www.thehindu.com...

"inbreeding causes other defects in these tigers."

This is a true statement. However, it is a point about the negative effects of irresponsible breeding, not of the negatives inherent in breeding White Tigers. If this debate were about banning inbreeding, I'd be on the same page. And I concede the point that most White Tiger breeding is done in an irresponsible manner. But the "white gene" is recessive, but present, in more tigers than just the whites themselves. A responsible breeding program would take that into account.

"every white tiger has crossed eyes..."

Crossed eyes may be compensated for. Many people have Strabismus (I'm one of them, in fact), but we don't prevent their breeding. While it is a "problem", it is by no means severe enough of one to warrant prohibition (it is by no means as bad as the problems caused by inbreeding).

"1 in 10,000 white tiger cubs will be white. none have ever been recorded to be an adult."

I request clarification. The gene is recessive, however, the cub of two White Tigers will be white, and the child of a White Tiger and a "Normal" tiger with the gene has a 50% chance of being white...I suspect that the "1 in 10,000" is a statistic of cubs in the wild? Wikipedia uses an estimate of 1 in 15,000, which includes cubs born from the majority of tigers who don't have the recessive gene, but I'll again ask clarification. White Tigers have certainly been seen as adults, and the last one shot in the wild was no cub.

"normal tiger behaviors would prevent a white tiger from ever being born."

Since the first white tiger officially recorded was taken from the wild, I think this claim can be safely considered rebutted. Conceded to be very uncommon, though.

"8 out of 10 cubs will die from the inbreeding needed to make the white show."

Citation, please. But also irrelevant unless you make the argument that the behavior of bad actors makes prohibition worthwhile over regulation, particularly in such an endangered species.

While your math at the end is correct re: genetics, it contradicts your earlier, confusing statement about 1 in 10,000. And it discounts breeding with one parent that has a fully expressed recessive gene, which brings the likelihood up to 2/4 cubs, a respectable chance considering that most litters are around 2-4 cubs. As regards to the cubs killed because of the lack of their desirability, that is again an argument against irresponsible breeding, not against the breeding in the first place.

[1] -- http://en.wikipedia.org...

Thank you, and I look forward to a response.
Debate Round No. 1
malamuter

Pro

lets ask ourselves: what is the meaning of conservation? protecting our natural resources. white tigers are a result of captive inbreeding and rarely would exist without the interference of humans. white tigers are not a subspecies. conservation is saving, and we created white tigers. They are not endangered. they wouldn't even hardly exist in the wild anyway. its not preserving the tigers if they didn't exist in the first place. in the wild, there is rarely a sighting of a white tiger. In the last 100 years, there have been 12 reports of wild white tiger sightings , the last of which happened in 1959.
"There are many species of dogs, for example, that would never survive without humans, but we allow their breeding"
I might ask my opponent, do these dogs have health defects that will effect the quality of life?
there are only a known population of 4,000 Bengal tigers left in the wild. we should be focusing on conserving those tigers.we should focus on a healthy population of these animals, rather than a unhealthy population of white tigers. even though 1 in 15,000 wild Bengal tigers would be born in the wild as a white tiger, that has nothing to do with the fact that we need to stop breeding them. I have no intention of going out in the wild and getting rid of the white tigers that exist. but what I am saying is even though we cant control natural white tiger births but we don't have to intentionally breed them. the white tigers that are inbreed in zoos have crossed eyes and may have mental retardation. we intentionally breed these tigers knowing they wont have the quality of life compared to that of a Bengal tiger. for example zabu, a white tiger has hairlip and cleft palate. which means she has no upper lip to protect her teeth.

"....every white tiger in the U.S. is not only the result of repeated inbreeding of genetically defective animals but, even worse, is a hybrid or crossbred animal. Thus, anyone involved in breeding and/or exhibiting white tigers is doing a great disservice to honest conservation and preservation efforts to save the five remaining and endangered subspecies of tigers barely clinging to survival" - dr. dan laughlin
http://www.greendiary.com...

they keep on saying they are conserving. but believe me, its all for the money. According to Tilson, white tigers are an aberration artificially bred and proliferated by a few zoos, private breeders, and circus folks, who do this for economic rather than conservation reasons. why do people breed these poor animals that are sentenced to life in a cage? there is an easy answer. these creatures are sold for nearly 60,000 dollars a piece. its all for the money not the conservation. as harsh as this may be, there isn't a place provided by nature for these tigers. there white coat is robbing them of their ability to camouflage.

"As regards to the cubs killed because of the lack of their desirability, that is again an argument against irresponsible breeding, not against the breeding in the first place."
what I might say in response, if white tigers are irresponsibly bred, then why not spare those other cubs lives. if breeding white tigers was illegal then those innocent cubs would be spared. what my opponents argument might suggest, is that we should let these breeders breed white cubs and then throw the un-white cubs away.

the deformities of some white tigers are so severe , zoos often kill them or they re discarded. all because of the terrible inbreeding. we created this problem. we caused all of these animals to be killed, no we caused tiger deaths that were unnecessary. 100 years ago, 100,000 tigers existed. those numbers are rapidly dwindling. we are killing tigers rather than conserving them. every bit of love you have toward animals, put toward stopping the abuse of white tigers.
bladerunner060

Con

Your source link redirects me to the homepage, so I was unable to find the specific article you tried to link to. Instead, I found http://www.greendiary.com.... It claims to be "via bigcatrescue.org".

However, the sites have problems: "The ONLY way to produce a tiger or lion with a white coat is through inbreeding brother to sister or father to daughter;". Flatly untrue. While that is A way to produce a tiger with a white coat, it is not the ONLY way. Uncles and Nieces could just as easily be used. Or Cousins, etc. It claims, regarding White Tiger cubs, that "80% of those die from birth defects associated with the inbreeding necessary to cause a white coat.", when in fact "There is a myth that white tigers have an 80% infant mortality rate. However, the infant mortality rate for white tigers is no higher than it is for normal orange tigers bred in captivity." [2]

I reject your source (and the source it relied upon) as unreliable.

"white tigers are not a subspecies."

Therefore, conserving White Tigers is conserving "Normal" Tigers, too.

"They are not endangered."
See above.

"its not preserving the tigers if they didn't exist in the first place. in the wild, there is rarely a sighting of a white tiger."

You can't say that they DON'T exist, and in the same paragraph admit that they DO. They DO exist in the wild, as you admit, but they are rare.

"I might ask my opponent, do these dogs have health defects that will effect the quality of life?"

How about pugs? That squashed in nose is not "normal" for the species. They're very prone to tracheal collapse.

Purebred dogs, in particular, can be quite inbred, and have ailments: "Genetic conditions are a particular problem for dogs from registries whose stud books are closed. Many of the national kennel clubs require that dogs with certain genetic illnesses or who are deemed to be carriers cannot be registered. Some of the most common conditions include hip dysplasia, seen in large breed dogs, von Willebrand disease, a disease that affects platelets that is inherited in Doberman Pinschers, entropion, a curling in of the eyelid seen in Shar Peis and many other breeds, progressive retinal atrophy, inherited in many breeds, deafness, and epilepsy, known to be inherited in Belgian Shepherd Dogs, German Shepherd Dogs, Cocker Spaniels, and St. Bernards." [1]

"there are only a known population of 4,000 Bengal tigers left in the wild. we should be focusing on conserving those tigers.we should focus on a healthy population of these animals, rather than a unhealthy population of white tigers."

We are, of course, not really talking about the WILD Bengal Tigers, since we're talking about breeding in captivity. So this point is rather moot. Of course we should try to conserve and support these tigers. But that does not necessitate the outlawing of breeders who choose to breed White Tigers.

"we don't have to intentionally breed them. the white tigers that are inbreed in zoos have crossed eyes and..."

I'll interrupt here to point out some things: saying "we don't have to" is not the same as saying "you shouldn't be allowed to".

I conceded from the beginning that many White Tigers are bred irresponsibly. But there is nothing INHERENT to the breeding of White Tigers which requires the level of inbreeding that gets the real problems. Which isn't as common as you seem to imply, anyway: "Other than a case of hip dysplasia that occurred in a male white tiger, we have not encountered any other body deformities or any physiological or neurological disorders. Some of these reported maladies in mutant tigers in other collections may be a direct result of inbreeding or improper rearing management of tigers generally." [2]

"we intentionally breed these tigers knowing they wont have the quality of life compared to that of a Bengal tiger. for example zabu, a white tiger has hairlip and cleft palate. which means she has no upper lip to protect her teeth."

"We" did not "intentionally" breed zabu to have a hairlip and a cleft palate. I doubt any breeder wants that. If there are no birth defects, then the White Tiger can be expected to live as long as the "Normal", "Cincinnati Zoo director Ed Maruska said: "We have not experienced premature death among our white tigers." [2]

That cub had a birth defect. They happen. They happen more often in inbred populations, which is why I have repeatedly said that, certainly, improvements can be made. These are not arguments that necessitate the banning of the breeding of White Tigers, however. As my position is that more regulation is necessary and desirable, you must establish why your position is BETTER than more regulation to prevent excessive inbreeding.

"....every white tiger in the U.S. is not only the result of repeated inbreeding of genetically defective animals..."

Where do you get that they are "genetically defective"? While I agree that often inbreeding can cause problems, you seem to take it as a given that they all have defective genes. Please establish that.

"Thus, anyone involved in breeding and/or exhibiting white tigers is doing a great disservice to honest conservation and preservation efforts to save the five remaining and endangered subspecies of tigers barely clinging to survival"

Why, exactly, is it a disservice? More tigers are created. You cannot say that NECESSARILY the same number of "Normal" Tigers would have been bred if only White Tigers were illegal.

"they keep on saying they are conserving. but believe me, its all for the money. ...white tigers are an aberration artificially bred and proliferated...for economic rather than conservation reasons. why do people breed these poor animals that are sentenced to life in a cage? there is an easy answer. these creatures are sold for nearly 60,000 dollars a piece. its all for the money not the conservation. as harsh as this may be, there isn't a place provided by nature for these tigers. there white coat is robbing them of their ability to camouflage."

Even if the White Tigers were bred for purely economic reasons, you've given neither a reason that should be outlawed, nor (if purely economic rather than conservation breeding should be outlawed) any reason to think that would mean there would be more "Normal" Tigers bred.

"if breeding white tigers was illegal then those innocent cubs would be spared."

You haven't established that as an actual point with anything. If breeding white tigers was illegal, you'd create a "black market", and who knows how many tiger cubs would be killed by new tiger mills?

"what my opponents argument might suggest, is that we should let these breeders breed white cubs and then throw the un-white cubs away."

What I actually suggested was simply regulating the breeding of White Tiger cubs. One of those regulations could trivially be that one cannot breed them if one is unprepared for the possibility of non-white offspring.

"the deformities of some white tigers are so severe , zoos often kill them or they re discarded"

I agree that inbreeding is bad. But there are ways to increase the Tiger population, while still breeding White Tigers. Not to repeat myself, but just repeating that inbreeding is bad does not make a point away from increased regulation and towards prohibition. Nor is it true that all White Tigers have severe problems, as seems to be implied. And please do not conflate wild Tiger conservation efforts (protecting habitats, preserving from poachers) with captive breeding programs.

I agree with my opponent that the conditions of Tiger breeding are often deplorable, but rather than thinking the problem can befixed by outlawing a certain color, I feel that the tigers of the world would be better served by their captive breeding being subject to regulation and oversight.

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org...(dog)#Health_issues
[2] http://en.wikipedia.org...
Debate Round No. 2
malamuter

Pro

my opponent has very strong arguments. I see her point and respect everything she said. my opinion will not be changed because I believe all animal cruelty should be outlawed. the white tigers deserve better and I hope to spread the word about it. the bottom line : zoos have concealed the truth, and we need to stand up to it. I agree we should stop inbreeding and I wish their was a better way to breed white tigers. but sadly there isn't. I hope I have made a small dent in the fight to stop inbreeding, and the way it affects white tigers. I strongly encourage viewers to boycott facilities that breed white tigers. I hope this argument drew your attention because you love animals. and I hope because you love animals you will join me and many others in the fight against cruel inbreeding on white tigers and other animals too. I put the argument into strong words: "white tiger inbreeding should be illegal", sorry if there was confusion in the title.
the one thing I want you to remember from this is white tiger inbreeding is cruelty not conservation.
bladerunner060

Con

I believe I've won the debate here based on the arguments.

However, I respect my opponent's desire to help the tigers, and think we can both agree that responsible conservation should definitely be the goal, and that inbreeding, if done at all, must be done in a way that minimizes the chance of significant health defects. While inbreeding is not truly NECESSARY in order to produce white tigers, it's generally the way it's done, and it's generally done irresponsibly. Part of the reason making it illegal would be bad would be because it would encourage inbreeding to continue the black market for white tigers...India said no to Siegfried and Roy's attempts to outbreed BECAUSE they'd made breeding White Tigers illegal.

But certainly: something should be done about the subject. And we should always endeavor to stop animal cruelty.

Thanks.
Debate Round No. 3
3 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 3 records.
Posted by likespeace 4 years ago
likespeace
Kudos to Pro for raising awareness of this issue. While you've convinced me that something should be done, you didn't convince me that outlawing the breeding of white tigers is required as opposed to better regulating the practice (Con's argument). Note also, animals saved for the sake of profit are just as saved as those saved for the sake of conservation, so it may be to the conservation movement's benefit to find more ways to partner with industry. May there soon be positive change!
Posted by RoyLatham 4 years ago
RoyLatham
A good topic that touches on a recurring theme in conservation. There are endangered species of African antelope breed in large numbers for private game farms, rescuing the species for the contrary purpose of hunting them. American bison are being raised in very large number for commercial meat production, doing more to preserve the species than conventional conservation. White tigers are tigers and are being propagated, though for non-conservation purposes.
Posted by bladerunner060 4 years ago
bladerunner060
One of my links did not post correctly. I believe it's the parentheses.
I will try throwing some arbitrary spaces in there:
http:// en. wikipedia. org/ wiki/ Purebred_ (dog)
2 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 2 records.
Vote Placed by RoyLatham 4 years ago
RoyLatham
malamuterbladerunner060Tied
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Total points awarded:04 
Reasons for voting decision: A good debate topic with all the basic arguments presented by both sides. Con had the correct arguments. Pro opposed irresponsible breeding, to which Con agreed, but did not carry the resolution that all breeding should be illegal. The example of breeding dogs is compelling. Sources were close enough to be essentially in agreement. Pro's inability to use the shift key was annoying and interfered with the flow of the arguments.
Vote Placed by utahjoker 4 years ago
utahjoker
malamuterbladerunner060Tied
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Total points awarded:03 
Reasons for voting decision: Even debate, but Con had better spelling coupled with more reliable sources