women could preach.
Debate Rounds (3)
i think Paul was putting his point of view and i think there was a problem going on for him to say that, which he was specific, and said ( I don't allow women teach) he never said (God don't allow it) one thing is paul and another thing is God saying it.
Thanks to Pro for the challenge. Hopefully we'll have an enlightening debate on what the Bible says about women preaching in the church.
I take the less popular side on this issue, the side that many believe violates today's politically correct, and socially equal, environment. Regardless, a doctrine's popularity is not indicitative of it's truth. I believe the Bible says that women are not to preach, or hold positions of authority within the church structure.
Throughout this debate, I will refer to the verses that Pro listed, but I'll also show support from many other verses that support my position, using the KJV. I will also attempt to refute the arguments that Pro uses in support of his position. That said, the burden of proof lies with Pro for upholding the resolution, using the Bible.
First, Pro's argument..."i think Paul was putting his point of view and i think there was a problem going on for him to say that, which he was specific, and said ( I don't allow women teach) he never said (God don't allow it) one thing is paul and another thing is God saying it."
1 Corinthians 14:34 states..."Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law." (Emphasis mine)
Here Paul is clearly making the statement that women are commanded, under God's law, to be obedient and keep silent in the church. This clearly means that they are not to preach, or hold any position of authority such as priest or bishop.
In addition, we can look to what Paul says in 1 Timothy 2:11-14...
"Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression."
Once again, Paul is admonishing women to remain silent in the church, and says that a woman is not to usurp power over a man. In addition, Paul refers to the created order, and the fact that Eve was the one who gave in to the serpent, as reasons for why God commands that women remain silent in the church. Paul establishes his authority to speak God's word in verse 7 of that same passage...
"Whereunto I am ordained a preacher, and an apostle, (I speak the truth in Christ, and lie not;) a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and verity."
Titus 1: 2-3 again establishes Paul's authority to speak as a commandment of God...
"In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began; But hath in due times manifested his word through preaching, which is committed unto me according to the commandment of God our Saviour;..." (Emphasis mine)
Saying that Paul is just asserting his own opinion, is an assertion that is not supported by the Bible, and is even refuted within the very verse that Pro used as the example. Paul is clearly saying that this is God's law, not his own, and that he is justly qualified to speak God's word.
In the case of women preaching in the church, it's clear that the Bible speaks against it, and that Paul is speaking God's word, not just his own opinion.
Part of my opening argument is contained in my rebuttal to Pro's opening, but there is also support for my contention in other areas. It's important to remember and be able to discern the difference between verses about church doctrine and church structure. One important area where that boundary is blurred in support of a social agenda is a verse in Galations that many who support women preachers frequently use. Galations 3:27-29 states...
"For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise." (Emphasis mine) 
Here you can see from the context that Paul is referring to the doctrine of justification by faith. In that context, this verse is true, we are all equal in the eyes of God. This verse has nothing to do with church structure, however, or how a woman should act in church, and should not be read in that context.
Ephesians 5: 23-24...
"For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body. Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.
Here there is a comparison of structure between how Christ heads the church, man heads the family, and the woman is subject to the husband in all things. All things must necessarily include the church, in which she is forbidden to take authority over a man, as shown in the earlier verse from 1 Timothy.
Titus 1: 5-9...
"For this cause left I thee in Crete, that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting, and ordain elders in every city, as I had appointed thee: If any be blameless, the husband of one wife, having faithful, children not accused of riot or unruly. For a bishop must be blameless, as the steward of God; not selfwilled, not soon angry, not given to wine, no striker, not given to filthy lucre; But a lover of hospitality, a lover of good men, sober, just, holy, temperate; Holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers." (Emphasis mine)
Here we see that elders and bishops must be "the husband of one wife", and is always referred to as "he". A woman cannot possibly be a husband, therefore, women are clearly ruled out as serving in authority within the church structure. A preacher is clearly a position of authority within the church, so from Biblical teaching, it's very clear that women are not to serve in these positions.
There are over 500 references to preachers, bishops, elders, and overseers, in the Bible, and all of them refer to those positions being held by men. One big reason is that women are told, in the Bible, to be the keepers of the home. They are to care for the home and the family, and as such a duty is time consuming, they would not have time to also adequately tend to a flock of parishoners. This may not be popular in today's society, where equality demands a removal of any gender roles, but again popularity is not the deciding issue when it comes to biblical doctrine.
It's important that we not come to the Bible with a preconcieved social agenda, and try to make the Bible into something that supports that agenda. Instead, Christians should first look at the Bible, then base their social agenda on what is in keeping with Biblical teachings. Looking for small little details that might allow our agenda to be acceptable, can cause us to overlook the blatant and obvious admonitions of such an agenda. I believe that is the case with the issue of women preaching and holding positions of authority within the church. While well-meaning, it is not how God set up His church, therefore it can't be said that it is acceptable and supported by the Bible.
I look forward to Pro's response.
In another version it says: 1Cor 14:34 Let women keep quiet in the churches: for it is not right for them to be talking; but let them be under control, as it says in the law.
Ok, now paul new the law, paul had Jewish blood, he had all the right to follow the law, but then he understood where not under the law anymore, the law was to bring us to God, do you follow the law? You do know thete is 613 laws right, what does the bible say: Jas 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one [point], he is guilty of all.
Heb 7:19 For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope [did]; by the which we draw nigh unto God.
Now, so when you men preach you in the flesh or in the spirit
Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
Because the bible shows us the fruits of the spirit to be in the spirit
2Cor 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?
2Cor 13:6 But I trust that ye shall know that we are not reprobates.
Does it not allow women?
Now ill tell why it says (as the law says).
Esth 1:17 For [this] deed of the queen shall come abroad unto all women, so that they shall despise their husbands in their eyes, when it shall be reported, The king Ahasuerus commanded Vashti the queen to be brought in before him, but she came not.
Esth 1:18 [Likewise] shall the ladies of Persia and Media say this day unto all the king's princes, which have heard of the deed of the queen. Thus [shall there arise] too much contempt and wrath.
Esth 1:19 If it please the king, let there go a royal commandment from him, and let it be written among the laws of the Persians and the Medes, that it be not altered, That Vashti come no more before king Ahasuerus; and let the king give her royal estate unto another that is better than she.
Esth 1:20 And when the king's decree which he shall make shall be published throughout all his empire, (for it is great,) all the wives shall give to their husbands honour, both to great and small.
Esth 1:21 And the saying pleased the king and the princes; and the king did according to the word of Memucan:
Esth 1:22 For he sent letters into all the king's provinces, into every province according to the writing thereof, and to every people after their language, that every man should bear rule in his own house, and that [it] should be published according to the language of every people.
Thats why it says that.
And paul shows us something: 1Cor 4:6 And these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and [to] Apollos for your sakes; that ye might learn in us not to think [of men] above that which is written, that no one of you be puffed up for one against another.
And your thinking more than what is written, it dont say women cant preach, but you assume it meens that, but i love the other verse he says in another version: 1Tim 2:11 Let a woman quietly take the place of a learner and be under authority.
1Tim 2:12 In my opinion it is right for a woman not to be a teacher, or to have rule over a man, but to be quiet.
1Tim 2:13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve;
1Tim 2:14 And Adam was not taken by deceit, but the woman, being tricked, became a wrongdoer.
He said (in my opinion). Now as we can see he was speaking his point of view, because he was able to resist women, 1Cor 7:1 Now, as to the things in your letter to me: It is good for a man to have nothing to do with a woman.
Now that verse that Eve was trick, which she was but it was Gods purpose, but this other verse it says
Rom 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
And like the bible says about the law: Rom 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. Gal 2:19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.
after he wrote that book he understood the Grace and wrote it, Gal 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed [is] every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
Now the law says anyone that ain't jew can't enter the temple, so obey all the if you want to obey that one.
i wonder why John gave this women the doctrine: 2Jn 1:1 The elder unto the elect lady and her children, whom I love in the truth; and not I only, but also all they that have known the truth;
2Jn 1:2 For the truth's sake, which dwelleth in us, and shall be with us for ever.
2Jn 1:3 Grace be with you, mercy, [and] peace, from God the Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of the Father, in truth and love.
2Jn 1:4 I rejoiced greatly that I found of thy children walking in truth, as we have received a commandment from the Father.
2Jn 1:5 And now I beseech thee, lady, not as though I wrote a new commandment unto thee, but that which we had from the beginning, that we love one another.
2Jn 1:6 And this is love, that we walk after his commandments. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it.
2Jn 1:7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.
2Jn 1:8 Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward.
2Jn 1:9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.
2Jn 1:10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into [your] house, neither bid him God speed:
2Jn 1:11 For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.
2Jn 1:12 Having many things to write unto you, I would not [write] with paper and ink: but I trust to come unto you, and speak face to face, that our joy may be full.
2Jn 1:13 The children of thy elect sister greet thee. Amen.
what was going on in there houses? Rom 16:5 Likewise [greet] the church that is in their house. Salute my wellbeloved Epaenetus, who is the firstfruits of Achaia unto Christ.
1Cor 16:19 The churches of Asia salute you. Aquila and Priscilla salute you much in the Lord, with the church that is in their house.
Now have you ever read this: Rom 16:7 Salute Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen, and my fellowprisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me.
Who is Junia? What does the Wikipedia say: Paul describes Junia (and Andronicus) as kinsmen, fellow prisoners, and as being "in Christ" before Paul's dramatic Damascus road conversion. The phrase, "of note among the apostles," (KJV, Douay, Darby, ERV, YLT, KJ21, NKJV, AKJV) leads many to the conclusion that she is the only woman apostle mentioned in the New Testament. It is assumed by some that Andronicus of Pannonia (Greek: Ανδρόνικος) was her husband. Both her gender and her apostleship are subjects of considerable debate. Understandably, this verse has received and continues to draw a great deal of attention in scholarly literature.
So the law says women, but the law also says you got to be a jew to participate in church
Thanks to Pro for his timely response. Please extend the argument from last round that Pro didn't comment on, namely Titus 1:5-9.
Pro begins this round by presenting an alternate version of the Corinthians verse. I'm not sure how that helps though because even his version says that women are not to talk in church. If they can't talk then they can't preach.
He then goes on to talk about Paul and the old law, saying that Paul knows we're not under the old law, meaning the Old Testament laws. This is irrelevant to this debate though, because we're talking about a specific commandment from God about how the church is to be structured. He also asks if I follow all the laws, but that too is irrelevant to the subject of this debate.
He posts some verses from Esther, but yet again these are irrelevant. It's important that you focus on biblical instructions that are specifically about church structure. If the instructions about structure are ignored, in favor of trying to find a technicality that you can argue will support your agenda, then you aren't following the Bible. The Bible clearly states, with no ambiguity, that women are to remain quiet in church and not hold positions of authority over men. It also says that church leaders are to be "husbands of one wife", and always refers to them as "he", never is a female preacher mentioned. You can't get around these blatant and obvious orders about the church, no matter how hard you try to make a verse say something different.
Then he posts some verses about churches being held in houses, but again, I don't see how that helps him any. Church is church, even if the service is held in someone's house, the same rules would apply unless specifically said to be an exception. There is no exception made.
Andronicus and Junia were likely husband and wife. " who are of note among the apostles", means they were well known by the apostles, not that Junia was an apostle. Pro is trying to imply here that Paul would boldly say "Women cannot preach", then turn around and allow a woman preacher. That is clearly an unfounded assertion since there is nothing in that chapter that says that Junia preached, or held a position of authority within the church.
I believe that Pro means well, and wants to be fair to women, but the Bible is clear and unapologetic on this issue. Any attempts to make women preaching acceptable biblically is a stretch, and misuse of the Bible that is clearly not supported.
aguilarjohn7 forfeited this round.
In closing, I think I have satisfactorily shown that the Bible tells us that women should not preach in church.
Thanks to Pro for the debate.
1 votes has been placed for this debate.
Vote Placed by AlwaysMoreThanYou 4 years ago
|Agreed with before the debate:||-||-||0 points|
|Agreed with after the debate:||-||-||0 points|
|Who had better conduct:||-||-||1 point|
|Had better spelling and grammar:||-||-||1 point|
|Made more convincing arguments:||-||-||3 points|
|Used the most reliable sources:||-||-||2 points|
|Total points awarded:||0||4|
Reasons for voting decision: Forfeit.
You are not eligible to vote on this debate
This debate has been configured to only allow voters who meet the requirements set by the debaters. This debate either has an Elo score requirement or is to be voted on by a select panel of judges.