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Do ingredient judge the plate? (Culinary Art)

suttichart.denpruektham
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2/15/2013 6:21:02 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
I am quite a fan of culinary artistic work and in just recently I saw some the food critique who gave negative remark to restaurants that served food that is made from raw ingredient that was not supposed to be in some dishes even though they still accepted that the taste as a food is good. For example serve something that resembles club sandwich in classic French restaurant (though the balance of flavor is absolutely right and do applied all of the high level culinary skill with 100 percent accuracy). Or use of some personnel opinion against the ingredient to rate down the dish they found to be good in overall. For example some critique may stated "the dish is 100 percent perfect, too bad I am on the green asparagus club so your use of white asparagus forced me to give you 80 percent rating instead of 100"

Do you think this kind of practice is acceptable in purely culinary artistic sense? I mean if the end result is 100 percent of your liking but if it served at wrong place or include ingredient that you personally dislike (and you will never know unless they stated it).Do you think in the food deserve negative comment in this circumstance.
Andromeda_Z
Posts: 4,151
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2/15/2013 7:58:00 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
I understand why a food served in the wrong circumstance would be judged more negatively than it would be in the proper circumstance; it may be wonderful but it's still inappropriate. Like ordering pizza and wings at a sushi restaraunt - it's just out of place. I don't like the practice of judging things on personal biases. Of course it's unavoidable for people to have biases (and white asparagus can be weird-looking), but a judge is meant to put them aside as much as possible in order to be fair.
suttichart.denpruektham
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2/16/2013 12:38:48 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/15/2013 7:58:00 PM, Andromeda_Z wrote:
I understand why a food served in the wrong circumstance would be judged more negatively than it would be in the proper circumstance; it may be wonderful but it's still inappropriate. Like ordering pizza and wings at a sushi restaraunt - it's just out of place. I don't like the practice of judging things on personal biases. Of course it's unavoidable for people to have biases (and white asparagus can be weird-looking), but a judge is meant to put them aside as much as possible in order to be fair.

I am quite agree that personal bias is unavoidable. Come to think of it the critiques also have their own readers and if the readers like the green asparagus they will probably agree to the critique who dislike the white any way. I for one will absolutely not have a bite on seafood that is cook alive (it may taste good but I feel like my soul is damned) and I think I will agree if the critique said cook them up in front of customer is disgusting.

Still not understand why serving sandwich is so bad though. I am kind of agree that pizza in suchi bar is bad but sandwich? Common! they served Oeuf Poch" Meurette on brioche and still count it as fine food. What's wrong with sandwich?
Skepsikyma
Posts: 8,280
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2/16/2013 11:11:15 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/16/2013 12:38:48 AM, suttichart.denpruektham wrote:
Still not understand why serving sandwich is so bad though. I am kind of agree that pizza in suchi bar is bad but sandwich? Common! they served Oeuf Poch" Meurette on brioche and still count it as fine food. What's wrong with sandwich?

A club sandwich is an American invention which has no place is a classical French restaurant. France has its own culture which they are very keen on preserving, and while club sandwiches have their place in themed restaurants or more casual eateries, they certainly do not have one in a classical French restaurant. It'd be like serving bouillabaisse as a part of traditional Chinese cuisine and saying "well, it's soup, and the Chinese eat soup. Close enough!"
"The Collectivist experiment is thoroughly suited (in appearance at least) to the Capitalist society which it proposes to replace. It works with the existing machinery of Capitalism, talks and thinks in the existing terms of Capitalism, appeals to just those appetites which Capitalism has aroused, and ridicules as fantastic and unheard-of just those things in society the memory of which Capitalism has killed among men wherever the blight of it has spread."
- Hilaire Belloc -
suttichart.denpruektham
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2/17/2013 1:54:19 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
But that is a matching of an entirely different culture. It isn't too alien to serve sushi in Chinese restaurant - they are very close in origin and Chinese has their own version of raw fish too.

I think the same principle can be applied here, if the french can serve sandwich with egg and call it a french classic but the same dish coming from the non-french chef and they branded it club sandwich. Isn't that funny?
sadolite
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2/23/2013 9:50:17 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
Critics can criticize all they want. They in no way determine who eats where and who eats what. If a restaurant makes food that people like and give good service, they will rise above the rest. Food critics are for people who read food critic articles. I would give no weight to a food critic and their opinion when choosing a place to eat and neither do 99.9% of all other people. Have you ever not ate at a restaurant because some food critic gave it a bad review? I never have. Nor have I not went to see a movie because of the opinion of a movie critic.
It's not your views that divide us, it's what you think my views should be that divides us.

If you think I will give up my rights and forsake social etiquette to make you "FEEL" better you are sadly mistaken

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Skepsikyma
Posts: 8,280
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2/24/2013 9:39:56 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/23/2013 9:50:17 AM, sadolite wrote:
Critics can criticize all they want. They in no way determine who eats where and who eats what. If a restaurant makes food that people like and give good service, they will rise above the rest. Food critics are for people who read food critic articles. I would give no weight to a food critic and their opinion when choosing a place to eat and neither do 99.9% of all other people. Have you ever not ate at a restaurant because some food critic gave it a bad review? I never have. Nor have I not went to see a movie because of the opinion of a movie critic.

Vladimir Nabokov had a perfect quote on critics, and how their criticism tells you something about the critic, but nothing about what is being critiqued:

"The purpose of a critique is to say something about a book which the critic has or has not read. Criticism can instructive in the sense that it give readers, including the author of the book, some information about the critic's intelligence, or honesty, or both."
"The Collectivist experiment is thoroughly suited (in appearance at least) to the Capitalist society which it proposes to replace. It works with the existing machinery of Capitalism, talks and thinks in the existing terms of Capitalism, appeals to just those appetites which Capitalism has aroused, and ridicules as fantastic and unheard-of just those things in society the memory of which Capitalism has killed among men wherever the blight of it has spread."
- Hilaire Belloc -
Skepsikyma
Posts: 8,280
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2/24/2013 9:46:44 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/17/2013 1:54:19 AM, suttichart.denpruektham wrote:
But that is a matching of an entirely different culture. It isn't too alien to serve sushi in Chinese restaurant - they are very close in origin and Chinese has their own version of raw fish too.

I think the same principle can be applied here, if the french can serve sandwich with egg and call it a french classic but the same dish coming from the non-french chef and they branded it club sandwich. Isn't that funny?

Japanese and Chinese cultures are in fact widely disparate, and I would argue that shoehorning them into the same establishment is done to capitalize on the mistaken Western assumption that they are almost interchangeable.

In the same way, French and American culture are very different. And you must understand that the French are intensely proud of their gastronomic culture. Standards in France are also much higher when it comes to food; McDonald's had to evolve into a completely different beast in order to survive there. So what may seem a menial, even humorous difference in the land of fast food and themed restaurants is probably taken quite gravely in a restaurant dedicated to classical French cuisine.
"The Collectivist experiment is thoroughly suited (in appearance at least) to the Capitalist society which it proposes to replace. It works with the existing machinery of Capitalism, talks and thinks in the existing terms of Capitalism, appeals to just those appetites which Capitalism has aroused, and ridicules as fantastic and unheard-of just those things in society the memory of which Capitalism has killed among men wherever the blight of it has spread."
- Hilaire Belloc -
suttichart.denpruektham
Posts: 1,115
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3/2/2013 9:52:10 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/24/2013 9:46:44 AM, Skepsikyma wrote:
At 2/17/2013 1:54:19 AM, suttichart.denpruektham wrote:
But that is a matching of an entirely different culture. It isn't too alien to serve sushi in Chinese restaurant - they are very close in origin and Chinese has their own version of raw fish too.

I think the same principle can be applied here, if the french can serve sandwich with egg and call it a french classic but the same dish coming from the non-french chef and they branded it club sandwich. Isn't that funny?

Japanese and Chinese cultures are in fact widely disparate, and I would argue that shoehorning them into the same establishment is done to capitalize on the mistaken Western assumption that they are almost interchangeable.

In the same way, French and American culture are very different. And you must understand that the French are intensely proud of their gastronomic culture. Standards in France are also much higher when it comes to food; McDonald's had to evolve into a completely different beast in order to survive there. So what may seem a menial, even humorous difference in the land of fast food and themed restaurants is probably taken quite gravely in a restaurant dedicated to classical French cuisine.

Honestly, I don't find mush different in culinary culture of US or UK and France. If you are going for a high cuisine in US or UK, I believe that you will found most of them are serving french classic. I am not a westerner, but I knew that many of the people in US or UK would enjoy a dish like Consumme Royal or Cream Brulee without feeling any foreign influence in the food. I would really disagree if you are to say that only a french can cook a french classic.

As for the matter of Chinese and Japanese cuisine. I would still say that their culinary culture is very similar, some of the dish do only have a different sauce, some only need some re-decoration and re-flavouring to make it identical.
Skepsikyma
Posts: 8,280
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3/2/2013 3:17:34 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/2/2013 9:52:10 AM, suttichart.denpruektham wrote:
At 2/24/2013 9:46:44 AM, Skepsikyma wrote:
At 2/17/2013 1:54:19 AM, suttichart.denpruektham wrote:
But that is a matching of an entirely different culture. It isn't too alien to serve sushi in Chinese restaurant - they are very close in origin and Chinese has their own version of raw fish too.

I think the same principle can be applied here, if the french can serve sandwich with egg and call it a french classic but the same dish coming from the non-french chef and they branded it club sandwich. Isn't that funny?

Japanese and Chinese cultures are in fact widely disparate, and I would argue that shoehorning them into the same establishment is done to capitalize on the mistaken Western assumption that they are almost interchangeable.

In the same way, French and American culture are very different. And you must understand that the French are intensely proud of their gastronomic culture. Standards in France are also much higher when it comes to food; McDonald's had to evolve into a completely different beast in order to survive there. So what may seem a menial, even humorous difference in the land of fast food and themed restaurants is probably taken quite gravely in a restaurant dedicated to classical French cuisine.

Honestly, I don't find mush different in culinary culture of US or UK and France. If you are going for a high cuisine in US or UK, I believe that you will found most of them are serving french classic. I am not a westerner, but I knew that many of the people in US or UK would enjoy a dish like Consumme Royal or Cream Brulee without feeling any foreign influence in the food. I would really disagree if you are to say that only a french can cook a french classic.

As for the matter of Chinese and Japanese cuisine. I would still say that their culinary culture is very similar, some of the dish do only have a different sauce, some only need some re-decoration and re-flavouring to make it identical.

I would agree with you about America food; our cuisine is an amalgam of various other cultures by necessity. Modern British cuisine is similarly diverse, but they do have a traditional cuisine which is different and unique to Britain. But classical French cuisine is still very vigorous; you've noticed yourself how widely it has been exported.

To clarify, I'm not saying that there isn't any cultural overlap. I'm certainly not saying that only French people can cook French cuisine. I'm saying that when a restaurant bills itself as serving classical, traditional, or authentic food of a certain culture then it should stick to only the cuisine of that culture. If I went to traditional Chinese restaurant which emphasized its authenticity and saw sashimi on the menu it would undercut what the restaurant had adopted as a theme. If I stopped at a generic Chinese restaurant and saw it I wouldn't be surprised, and probably would be happy, because I like sashimi.
"The Collectivist experiment is thoroughly suited (in appearance at least) to the Capitalist society which it proposes to replace. It works with the existing machinery of Capitalism, talks and thinks in the existing terms of Capitalism, appeals to just those appetites which Capitalism has aroused, and ridicules as fantastic and unheard-of just those things in society the memory of which Capitalism has killed among men wherever the blight of it has spread."
- Hilaire Belloc -
suttichart.denpruektham
Posts: 1,115
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3/7/2013 11:32:56 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/2/2013 3:17:34 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
At 3/2/2013 9:52:10 AM, suttichart.denpruektham wrote:
At 2/24/2013 9:46:44 AM, Skepsikyma wrote:
At 2/17/2013 1:54:19 AM, suttichart.denpruektham wrote:
But that is a matching of an entirely different culture. It isn't too alien to serve sushi in Chinese restaurant - they are very close in origin and Chinese has their own version of raw fish too.

I think the same principle can be applied here, if the french can serve sandwich with egg and call it a french classic but the same dish coming from the non-french chef and they branded it club sandwich. Isn't that funny?

Japanese and Chinese cultures are in fact widely disparate, and I would argue that shoehorning them into the same establishment is done to capitalize on the mistaken Western assumption that they are almost interchangeable.

In the same way, French and American culture are very different. And you must understand that the French are intensely proud of their gastronomic culture. Standards in France are also much higher when it comes to food; McDonald's had to evolve into a completely different beast in order to survive there. So what may seem a menial, even humorous difference in the land of fast food and themed restaurants is probably taken quite gravely in a restaurant dedicated to classical French cuisine.

Honestly, I don't find mush different in culinary culture of US or UK and France. If you are going for a high cuisine in US or UK, I believe that you will found most of them are serving french classic. I am not a westerner, but I knew that many of the people in US or UK would enjoy a dish like Consumme Royal or Cream Brulee without feeling any foreign influence in the food. I would really disagree if you are to say that only a french can cook a french classic.

As for the matter of Chinese and Japanese cuisine. I would still say that their culinary culture is very similar, some of the dish do only have a different sauce, some only need some re-decoration and re-flavouring to make it identical.

I would agree with you about America food; our cuisine is an amalgam of various other cultures by necessity. Modern British cuisine is similarly diverse, but they do have a traditional cuisine which is different and unique to Britain. But classical French cuisine is still very vigorous; you've noticed yourself how widely it has been exported.

To clarify, I'm not saying that there isn't any cultural overlap. I'm certainly not saying that only French people can cook French cuisine. I'm saying that when a restaurant bills itself as serving classical, traditional, or authentic food of a certain culture then it should stick to only the cuisine of that culture. If I went to traditional Chinese restaurant which emphasized its authenticity and saw sashimi on the menu it would undercut what the restaurant had adopted as a theme. If I stopped at a generic Chinese restaurant and saw it I wouldn't be surprised, and probably would be happy, because I like sashimi.

Ok, I think I can see your point. And I like sashimi too, glad to know that I have a friend.

The problem may be about inventing new menu rather than recreating traditional one. Of course chef of any nationality can cook Consumme and call it a french dish. It is just so unfortunate that only the french can invent new food and still called it french. Some newly invented western dish really gave off french character but no one in the world will recognize it.

But then again, that may be what it is suppose to be any way.