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Objective Beauty

innomen
Posts: 10,052
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6/28/2010 11:59:06 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
John Keats wrote in Ode to a Grecian Urn: "..."Beauty is truth, truth beauty,"--that is all Ye know on earth, and all ye need to know."

"Euclid alone has looked on Beauty bare," Edna St. Vincent Millay wrote. To mathematicians, great theorems and great proofs, such as Euclid's elegant proof of the infinity of primes, have about them what Bertrand Russell described as "a beauty cold and austere," akin to the beauty of great works of sculpture.

Einstein once said that while Beethoven created his music, Mozart's "was so pure that it seemed to have been ever-present in the universe, waiting to be discovered by the master." Einstein believed much the same of physics, that beyond observations and theory lay the music of the spheres — which, he wrote, revealed a "pre-established harmony" exhibiting stunning symmetries. The laws of nature, such as those of relativity theory, were waiting to be plucked out of the cosmos by someone with a sympathetic ear.

So any takers for objective beauty?
I-am-a-panda
Posts: 15,380
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6/28/2010 12:03:05 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
No real objective beauty, unless a society marks it as so. Of course, the variables here are:

1) What your definition of beautiful is
2) If you believe in a source of objectiveness.
Pizza. I have enormous respect for Pizza.
innomen
Posts: 10,052
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6/28/2010 12:11:18 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 6/28/2010 12:03:05 PM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
No real objective beauty, unless a society marks it as so. Of course, the variables here are:

1) What your definition of beautiful is
2) If you believe in a source of objectiveness.

I would think a certain elegance of symmetry. Mozart is good like this with the elegance between his harmony and melody. Mozart was quite a mathematician and would just play with formulas for fun. Einstein wrote a book on Mozart and the beauty of his work.
Danielle
Posts: 21,330
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7/9/2010 7:59:24 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 6/28/2010 12:11:18 PM, innomen wrote:
Mozart is good like this with the elegance between his harmony and melody. Mozart was quite a mathematician and would just play with formulas for fun. Einstein wrote a book on Mozart and the beauty of his work.

I was explaining to Vi how the relationship between science (mathematics) and music is really interesting. I definitely want to check out that book! Mozart's great :)

As far as aesthetics and objective beauty go... eh. It's debateable but I don't really agree.
President of DDO
popculturepooka
Posts: 7,924
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7/9/2010 9:47:33 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
I think a case could be made of objective beauty or aesthetics. Especially in science and math.
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Vi_Veri
Posts: 4,487
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7/9/2010 9:50:14 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 7/9/2010 7:59:24 AM, theLwerd wrote:
At 6/28/2010 12:11:18 PM, innomen wrote:
Mozart is good like this with the elegance between his harmony and melody. Mozart was quite a mathematician and would just play with formulas for fun. Einstein wrote a book on Mozart and the beauty of his work.

I was explaining to Vi how the relationship between science (mathematics) and music is really interesting. I definitely want to check out that book! Mozart's great :)

As far as aesthetics and objective beauty go... eh. It's debateable but I don't really agree.

Actually this is very false. True beauty is not really relative. More on this later - but I have to go spend some time with my sister for her 19th birthday today :)
I could give a f about no haters as long as my ishes love me.
innomen
Posts: 10,052
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7/9/2010 9:52:17 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 7/9/2010 9:50:14 AM, Vi_Veri wrote:
At 7/9/2010 7:59:24 AM, theLwerd wrote:
At 6/28/2010 12:11:18 PM, innomen wrote:
Mozart is good like this with the elegance between his harmony and melody. Mozart was quite a mathematician and would just play with formulas for fun. Einstein wrote a book on Mozart and the beauty of his work.

I was explaining to Vi how the relationship between science (mathematics) and music is really interesting. I definitely want to check out that book! Mozart's great :)

As far as aesthetics and objective beauty go... eh. It's debateable but I don't really agree.

Actually this is very false. True beauty is not really relative. More on this later - but I have to go spend some time with my sister for her 19th birthday today :)

Hit and run.
Yvette
Posts: 859
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7/9/2010 11:25:32 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
I fail to see why beauty would be objective when it's not exactly a secret that people disagree often on what is beautiful.

Can heavy metal be beautiful to you? Rap? A "big beautiful woman" (BBW)?

The first two I can find beautiful, the third is considered beautiful by enough to have it's own name and used to be considered beautiful by conventional society.

Just thinking below, if I'm wrong, I'm wrong.

Most likely we simply find certain sensations in each of the five senses "beautiful", we just use different names for each sense. I'm sure there's research on aesthetics and evolution, somewhere, though I'm guessing being uplifted, moved, pleasured, etc, by certain visual and other sensations would be good for an individual's survival. It would even help spirituality form since as we've all been told it brings comfort.

I'm guessing it's both cultural and "genetically" objective, since it a) varies between cultures, times, and individuals when it comes to either irrelevant sensations or ones which have importance only within that culture/time b) applies near-universally to things which would have more importance further back in the evolutionary road, for example animals, the stars, opposite gender, etc.

I could very well be wrong, and I'd be really interested if there was proof of objective beauty, that's just always been my collection of thoughts on the matter.
In the middle of moving to Washington. 8D

"If God does not exist, then chocolate causing cancer is only true for the society that has evidence for that." --GodSands
Atheism
Posts: 2,033
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7/10/2010 10:31:09 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
If you argue about objective/subjective beauty, its like morality.This is a morality argument in an art style. Lol.
I miss the old members.
Atheism
Posts: 2,033
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7/10/2010 10:37:51 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 7/10/2010 10:32:43 AM, badger wrote:
uglyness can definitely be objective anyway.

No, it can't.
I miss the old members.
badger
Posts: 11,793
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7/10/2010 10:42:08 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 7/10/2010 10:37:51 AM, Atheism wrote:
At 7/10/2010 10:32:43 AM, badger wrote:
uglyness can definitely be objective anyway.

No, it can't.

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Ragnar_Rahl
Posts: 19,297
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7/11/2010 8:39:19 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
Define beauty first.
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
InsertNameHere
Posts: 15,699
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7/11/2010 8:41:08 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
Beauty is entirely subjective, which is why whenever I get a guy online asking if I'm hot or not, I just tell him that it depends on what he likes.
nonentity
Posts: 5,008
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7/12/2010 10:21:00 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
Beauty can only be subjective. I'm finding it hard to understand how it could be objective when all over the world, between and within societies, people have different notions of what constitutes as aesthetically pleasing or not?

The only thing I can think of that might fall under your definition of "objective beauty" is math.
feverish
Posts: 2,716
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7/13/2010 5:57:32 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
Yeah beauty is subjective, especially if we're talking about human beauty as seems to be the case here.

There are of course certain evolutionary triggers that most of us will respond to in varying degrees, whether with attraction or repulsion but I firmly believe it's in the eye of the beholder.
innomen
Posts: 10,052
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7/14/2010 3:16:07 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 7/13/2010 5:57:32 AM, feverish wrote:
Yeah beauty is subjective, especially if we're talking about human beauty as seems to be the case here.

There are of course certain evolutionary triggers that most of us will respond to in varying degrees, whether with attraction or repulsion but I firmly believe it's in the eye of the beholder.

No, not human beauty so much, but rather the mathematical elegance and symmetry that is found in some art, specifically he was speaking of Mozart.
feverish
Posts: 2,716
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7/14/2010 4:22:37 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 7/14/2010 3:16:07 PM, innomen wrote:

No, not human beauty so much, but rather the mathematical elegance and symmetry that is found in some art, specifically he was speaking of Mozart.

Yeah sorry mate, I guess I was responding to other people's points more than to your original post.

I have a very limited understanding of maths past the most basic level, so I suppose I've never had the opportunity to appreciate the beauty of maths. I have a lot of respect for Einstein though, so I'll probably take his word for it.

As far as music goes, I know that it follows mathematical laws and that the intervals of most forms of notation are present in nature. For example, if you pluck a length of wire to produce a note, you will find that another piece of wire, half the length of the first, made from the same material and held at the same tension will produce a note exactly one octave higher than the first.

Its quite possible that Einstein could see a mathematical beauty in Mozart's work that I would be oblivious too, however I still think that the appreciation of this beauty would be entirely subjective. To me, some of the most pure and powerful music can sometimes be the most simply constructed and although I'm no classical buff, I prefer Beethoven to Mozart.

Without getting too philosophical (I'd soon be out of my depth), I think beauty is a quality that needs to be appreciated by someone to exist. Since we can all experience beauty in different forms, I think it's subjective.
innomen
Posts: 10,052
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7/15/2010 12:58:10 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 7/14/2010 4:22:37 PM, feverish wrote:
At 7/14/2010 3:16:07 PM, innomen wrote:

No, not human beauty so much, but rather the mathematical elegance and symmetry that is found in some art, specifically he was speaking of Mozart.

Yeah sorry mate, I guess I was responding to other people's points more than to your original post.

I have a very limited understanding of maths past the most basic level, so I suppose I've never had the opportunity to appreciate the beauty of maths. I have a lot of respect for Einstein though, so I'll probably take his word for it.

As far as music goes, I know that it follows mathematical laws and that the intervals of most forms of notation are present in nature. For example, if you pluck a length of wire to produce a note, you will find that another piece of wire, half the length of the first, made from the same material and held at the same tension will produce a note exactly one octave higher than the first.

Its quite possible that Einstein could see a mathematical beauty in Mozart's work that I would be oblivious too, however I still think that the appreciation of this beauty would be entirely subjective. To me, some of the most pure and powerful music can sometimes be the most simply constructed and although I'm no classical buff, I prefer Beethoven to Mozart.

Without getting too philosophical (I'd soon be out of my depth), I think beauty is a quality that needs to be appreciated by someone to exist. Since we can all experience beauty in different forms, I think it's subjective.

Thanks, Einstein's book on Mozart was pretty inspirational for me in this area. I do understand what you are saying about a function of beauty in our lives as that which is attractive helps us in procreation. I don't think that Einstein would disagree with that at all, but would argue that beauty would still remain whether we incorporate it into our lives or not. Mozart is amazing if you look at his relationships between harmony and melody, and their interchangeable relationship, and interestingly enough Mozart was sort of an amateur mathematician. Einstein said something like, 'it is though Mozart just plucked the music from the universe'.
lovelife
Posts: 14,629
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7/15/2010 1:12:18 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 7/11/2010 8:41:08 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
Beauty is entirely subjective, which is why whenever I get a guy online asking if I'm hot or not, I just tell him that it depends on what he likes.

Really? I get a guy online asking if I'm hot and I log off of whatever site he's talking to me on and never get back on it again. (or thats probable cause to make a new account and avoid that guy. Like what I did with yahoo)

That's just me tho
Without Royal there is a hole inside of me, I have no choice but to leave
InsertNameHere
Posts: 15,699
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7/15/2010 1:15:10 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 7/15/2010 1:12:18 AM, lovelife wrote:
At 7/11/2010 8:41:08 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
Beauty is entirely subjective, which is why whenever I get a guy online asking if I'm hot or not, I just tell him that it depends on what he likes.

Really? I get a guy online asking if I'm hot and I log off of whatever site he's talking to me on and never get back on it again. (or thats probable cause to make a new account and avoid that guy. Like what I did with yahoo)

That's just me tho

It's when they start asking to cam when I leave.
lovelife
Posts: 14,629
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7/15/2010 1:21:04 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 7/15/2010 1:15:10 AM, InsertNameHere wrote:
At 7/15/2010 1:12:18 AM, lovelife wrote:
At 7/11/2010 8:41:08 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
Beauty is entirely subjective, which is why whenever I get a guy online asking if I'm hot or not, I just tell him that it depends on what he likes.

Really? I get a guy online asking if I'm hot and I log off of whatever site he's talking to me on and never get back on it again. (or thats probable cause to make a new account and avoid that guy. Like what I did with yahoo)

That's just me tho

It's when they start asking to cam when I leave.

I wouldn't let it get that far. I accidently did something not proud of when I was drunk ata friends house.

I will never trust the internet with my drunk self and a drunk friend again.

Well I'll never trust any guy that seems like he wants to hit on me especially IF I'm hot. Alot of people say I am, I don't see it, and I don't care.

There's quite a few openings to when I get all "g2g" log off, and they never talk to me again.
Without Royal there is a hole inside of me, I have no choice but to leave
InsertNameHere
Posts: 15,699
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7/15/2010 1:24:25 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 7/15/2010 1:21:04 AM, lovelife wrote:
At 7/15/2010 1:15:10 AM, InsertNameHere wrote:
At 7/15/2010 1:12:18 AM, lovelife wrote:
At 7/11/2010 8:41:08 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
Beauty is entirely subjective, which is why whenever I get a guy online asking if I'm hot or not, I just tell him that it depends on what he likes.

Really? I get a guy online asking if I'm hot and I log off of whatever site he's talking to me on and never get back on it again. (or thats probable cause to make a new account and avoid that guy. Like what I did with yahoo)

That's just me tho

It's when they start asking to cam when I leave.

I wouldn't let it get that far. I accidently did something not proud of when I was drunk ata friends house.

I will never trust the internet with my drunk self and a drunk friend again.

Well I'll never trust any guy that seems like he wants to hit on me especially IF I'm hot. Alot of people say I am, I don't see it, and I don't care.

There's quite a few openings to when I get all "g2g" log off, and they never talk to me again.

Lmao. Lately I have been keeping it from getting that far too. As soon as they start asking if you're horny, back away... O.O
lovelife
Posts: 14,629
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7/15/2010 1:27:48 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 7/15/2010 1:24:25 AM, InsertNameHere wrote:
At 7/15/2010 1:21:04 AM, lovelife wrote:
At 7/15/2010 1:15:10 AM, InsertNameHere wrote:
At 7/15/2010 1:12:18 AM, lovelife wrote:
At 7/11/2010 8:41:08 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
Beauty is entirely subjective, which is why whenever I get a guy online asking if I'm hot or not, I just tell him that it depends on what he likes.

Really? I get a guy online asking if I'm hot and I log off of whatever site he's talking to me on and never get back on it again. (or thats probable cause to make a new account and avoid that guy. Like what I did with yahoo)

That's just me tho

It's when they start asking to cam when I leave.

I wouldn't let it get that far. I accidently did something not proud of when I was drunk ata friends house.

I will never trust the internet with my drunk self and a drunk friend again.

Well I'll never trust any guy that seems like he wants to hit on me especially IF I'm hot. Alot of people say I am, I don't see it, and I don't care.

There's quite a few openings to when I get all "g2g" log off, and they never talk to me again.

Lmao. Lately I have been keeping it from getting that far too. As soon as they start asking if you're horny, back away... O.O

And if they call you babe, or sexy, or ask how hot you are, or....do anything more than ask if your single that could be taken as them hitting on you.
Without Royal there is a hole inside of me, I have no choice but to leave
TheSkeptic
Posts: 1,362
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7/15/2010 1:34:33 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
Problem is in defining beauty, aesthetics, and objectivity.

One possible approach adherents to objective beauty can take is to demonstrate some causal link between certain tokens of a type of beauty-related category (certain songs, certain paintings, etc.) that have been shown to be associated with positive reactions in the human psyche. How you measure positive reactions, or judge whether they are positive, is similarly very debatable...

Even if such a link were to be concretely shown (i.e. all songs of type X produce pleasure/approval/etc. in human listeners), that wouldn't necessarily make it objectively beautiful as well.
innomen
Posts: 10,052
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7/15/2010 1:59:47 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 7/15/2010 1:34:33 AM, TheSkeptic wrote:
Problem is in defining beauty, aesthetics, and objectivity.

One possible approach adherents to objective beauty can take is to demonstrate some causal link between certain tokens of a type of beauty-related category (certain songs, certain paintings, etc.) that have been shown to be associated with positive reactions in the human psyche. How you measure positive reactions, or judge whether they are positive, is similarly very debatable...

Even if such a link were to be concretely shown (i.e. all songs of type X produce pleasure/approval/etc. in human listeners), that wouldn't necessarily make it objectively beautiful as well.

Not at all, i would think that would further support subjective beauty whereas Einstein's argument was more on the lines of elegant symmetry rather than attractiveness, although the result was attractiveness because we seem to find elegant symmetry attractive.