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DDO Property

Danielle
Posts: 21,330
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3/8/2011 8:49:05 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
I really hate this part of the TOS:

All material you post on Debate.org, including debate arguments, comments, forums, profiles, pictures, and messages becomes the property of Debate.org, and you waive all claims of ownership for said property.

I would say over 90% of the people who create accounts on this website only utilize DDO to plagiarize arguments for their real-life debates. There are probably even more than that who plagiarize our arguments but don't create accounts. While obviously we can expect things we post on this site to be public, I wish it can be considered the property of both Juggle and ourselves. I also don't think the TOS is very clear about it.

For instance, if someone stole lyrics I wrote for a rap battle I posted on this site and made a song using them, would Juggle get compensated and not myself? That's pretty bogus. It seems Juggle can profit off anything any one of us writes then, no? Of course I understand that this is something we willingly agree to and accept in creating our account; however, since people have talked about revising the TOS with the new owners, I figured I'd ask other people's opinion. Is this a necessary legal stipulation for websites like this?
President of DDO
Thaddeus
Posts: 6,985
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3/8/2011 9:22:39 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/8/2011 8:49:05 AM, Danielle wrote:
I really hate this part of the TOS:

All material you post on Debate.org, including debate arguments, comments, forums, profiles, pictures, and messages becomes the property of Debate.org, and you waive all claims of ownership for said property.

I would say over 90% of the people who create accounts on this website only utilize DDO to plagiarize arguments for their real-life debates. There are probably even more than that who plagiarize our arguments but don't create accounts. While obviously we can expect things we post on this site to be public, I wish it can be considered the property of both Juggle and ourselves. I also don't think the TOS is very clear about it.

For instance, if someone stole lyrics I wrote for a rap battle I posted on this site and made a song using them, would Juggle get compensated and not myself? That's pretty bogus. It seems Juggle can profit off anything any one of us writes then, no? Of course I understand that this is something we willingly agree to and accept in creating our account; however, since people have talked about revising the TOS with the new owners, I figured I'd ask other people's opinion. Is this a necessary legal stipulation for websites like this?

Completely agree about lyric issue, but I don't see why you'd care if someone plagarizes you (off DDO that is, I understand in other contexts why it is undersirable)
PARADIGM_L0ST
Posts: 6,958
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3/8/2011 10:01:01 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/8/2011 8:49:05 AM, Danielle wrote:
I really hate this part of the TOS:

All material you post on Debate.org, including debate arguments, comments, forums, profiles, pictures, and messages becomes the property of Debate.org, and you waive all claims of ownership for said property.

I would say over 90% of the people who create accounts on this website only utilize DDO to plagiarize arguments for their real-life debates. There are probably even more than that who plagiarize our arguments but don't create accounts. While obviously we can expect things we post on this site to be public, I wish it can be considered the property of both Juggle and ourselves. I also don't think the TOS is very clear about it.

For instance, if someone stole lyrics I wrote for a rap battle I posted on this site and made a song using them, would Juggle get compensated and not myself? That's pretty bogus.:

Well, you just made a compelling argument in defense of intellectual property. Thank you!
"Have you ever considered suicide? If not, please do." -- Mouthwash (to Inferno)
bluesteel
Posts: 12,301
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3/8/2011 10:14:19 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
It seems like anything that should be considered private (PM's) or removable (profile info, pictures) should continue to be our property. It's a little weird that Juggle would stake ownership claims of panda's profile pic, for example. I think if they tried to profit off something written in a PM, that'd also be a problem. But I can see how the site couldn't function without them owning our debate content. Otherwise, we could each ask for our share of the profits, based on how many debates we've done, Danielle getting the largest user share.
You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into - Jonathan Swift (paraphrase)
Ore_Ele
Posts: 25,980
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3/8/2011 10:18:37 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/8/2011 8:49:05 AM, Danielle wrote:
I really hate this part of the TOS:

All material you post on Debate.org, including debate arguments, comments, forums, profiles, pictures, and messages becomes the property of Debate.org, and you waive all claims of ownership for said property.

I would say over 90% of the people who create accounts on this website only utilize DDO to plagiarize arguments for their real-life debates. There are probably even more than that who plagiarize our arguments but don't create accounts. While obviously we can expect things we post on this site to be public, I wish it can be considered the property of both Juggle and ourselves. I also don't think the TOS is very clear about it.

For instance, if someone stole lyrics I wrote for a rap battle I posted on this site and made a song using them, would Juggle get compensated and not myself? That's pretty bogus. It seems Juggle can profit off anything any one of us writes then, no? Of course I understand that this is something we willingly agree to and accept in creating our account; however, since people have talked about revising the TOS with the new owners, I figured I'd ask other people's opinion. Is this a necessary legal stipulation for websites like this?

Question on the reverse of that. If it is all owned by Juggle, does that mean that slander one someone, who may decide to file a lawsuit for said slander would be filing a claim against Juggle rather than the individual that said it?
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
mattrodstrom
Posts: 12,028
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3/8/2011 10:19:43 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/8/2011 8:49:05 AM, Danielle wrote:
I really hate this part of the TOS:

All material you post on Debate.org, including debate arguments, comments, forums, profiles, pictures, and messages becomes the property of Debate.org, and you waive all claims of ownership for said property.

1000000% agreed

almost made me keep myself from joining in the first place.. but I knew I'd iron out just what i think better if I did... so... :/
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
askbob
Posts: 7,254
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3/8/2011 10:20:45 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/8/2011 8:49:05 AM, Danielle wrote:
It seems Juggle can profit off anything any one of us writes then, no? Of course I understand that this is something we willingly agree to and accept in creating our account; however, since people have talked about revising the TOS with the new owners, I figured I'd ask other people's opinion. Is this a necessary legal stipulation for websites like this?

yes it is. Because then I can come along, copy Debate.orgs design slightly alter the name. Create accounts matching this one, steal all the debates and forum posts. and make it appear as if this site is active. Then promote it all over the place drawing in the users to actually make it legit and slowly stop posting on the hundreds of fake accounts.

Then boom I've beaten Juggle and stolen everything
Me -Phil left the site in my charge. I have a recorded phone conversation to prove it.
kohai -If you're the owner, then do something useful like ip block him and get us away from juggle and on a dofferent host!
Me -haha you apparently don't know my history
Kohai - Maybe not, but that doesn't matter! You shoukd still listen to your community and quit being a tyrrant!
Me - i was being completely sarcastic
Kohai - then u misrepresented yourself by impersonating the owner—a violation of the tos
J.Kenyon
Posts: 4,194
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3/8/2011 10:24:58 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/8/2011 10:01:01 AM, PARADIGM_L0ST wrote:
Well, you just made a compelling argument in defense of intellectual property. Thank you!

Actually, I'm pretty sure she's upset about Juggle "owning" our ideas...
nonentity
Posts: 5,008
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3/8/2011 10:38:41 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/8/2011 9:22:39 AM, Thaddeus wrote:
At 3/8/2011 8:49:05 AM, Danielle wrote:
I really hate this part of the TOS:

All material you post on Debate.org, including debate arguments, comments, forums, profiles, pictures, and messages becomes the property of Debate.org, and you waive all claims of ownership for said property.

I would say over 90% of the people who create accounts on this website only utilize DDO to plagiarize arguments for their real-life debates. There are probably even more than that who plagiarize our arguments but don't create accounts. While obviously we can expect things we post on this site to be public, I wish it can be considered the property of both Juggle and ourselves. I also don't think the TOS is very clear about it.

For instance, if someone stole lyrics I wrote for a rap battle I posted on this site and made a song using them, would Juggle get compensated and not myself? That's pretty bogus. It seems Juggle can profit off anything any one of us writes then, no? Of course I understand that this is something we willingly agree to and accept in creating our account; however, since people have talked about revising the TOS with the new owners, I figured I'd ask other people's opinion. Is this a necessary legal stipulation for websites like this?

Completely agree about lyric issue, but I don't see why you'd care if someone plagarizes you (off DDO that is, I understand in other contexts why it is undersirable)

Why should someone else profit from the theft of my ideas...
Ore_Ele
Posts: 25,980
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3/8/2011 10:41:50 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
Does anyone actually have any evidence that your debates were copied and sent someone else? I know that you'd never be able to find it on a term paper that someone would have turned in (though the teacher would likely find this place through a google search of a few middle sentences).

But have you seen it posted on other forums? Or on blogs or anywhere else that gives merit, other than your own self-absorbed paranoia?
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
PARADIGM_L0ST
Posts: 6,958
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3/8/2011 10:46:15 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/8/2011 10:24:58 AM, J.Kenyon wrote:
At 3/8/2011 10:01:01 AM, PARADIGM_L0ST wrote:
Well, you just made a compelling argument in defense of intellectual property. Thank you!

Actually, I'm pretty sure she's upset about Juggle "owning" our ideas...:

I know, she's saying we have a right to our own intellectual property. But if I recall correctly she said (might have been Caramel) there should be no intellectual property. So I thought it was ironic that she in one instance says it shouldn't exist, and then in the next, says we should have those rights.
"Have you ever considered suicide? If not, please do." -- Mouthwash (to Inferno)
Freeman
Posts: 1,239
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3/8/2011 10:51:13 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/8/2011 10:48:37 AM, PARADIGM_L0ST wrote:
At 3/8/2011 10:47:10 AM, Freeman wrote:
http://www.debate.org...

http://www.debate.org...:

Spam.

huh?

People were asking whether any arguments have ever been copied. I now from personal experience that that's true.
Chancellor of Propaganda and Foreign Relations in the Franklin administration.

"I intend to live forever. So far, so good." -- Steven Wright
PARADIGM_L0ST
Posts: 6,958
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3/8/2011 10:53:53 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/8/2011 10:51:13 AM, Freeman wrote:
At 3/8/2011 10:48:37 AM, PARADIGM_L0ST wrote:
At 3/8/2011 10:47:10 AM, Freeman wrote:
http://www.debate.org...

http://www.debate.org...:

Spam.

huh?

People were asking whether any arguments have ever been copied. I now from personal experience that that's true.:

I was being facetious.
"Have you ever considered suicide? If not, please do." -- Mouthwash (to Inferno)
Freeman
Posts: 1,239
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3/8/2011 10:58:03 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/8/2011 10:53:53 AM, PARADIGM_L0ST wrote:
At 3/8/2011 10:51:13 AM, Freeman wrote:
At 3/8/2011 10:48:37 AM, PARADIGM_L0ST wrote:
At 3/8/2011 10:47:10 AM, Freeman wrote:
http://www.debate.org...

http://www.debate.org...:

Spam.

huh?

People were asking whether any arguments have ever been copied. I [know] from personal experience that that's true.:

I was being facetious.

Ok..........
Chancellor of Propaganda and Foreign Relations in the Franklin administration.

"I intend to live forever. So far, so good." -- Steven Wright
Ragnar_Rahl
Posts: 19,297
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3/8/2011 11:33:58 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
If you're posting information you hope to profit off of here, you're dumb. By posting something this publicly, you've pretty much lost any claim to anything but statutory damages if someone steals your lyrics, or maybe an injuction that they have to credit you. Assuming you bothered to sue.

Ideally it should be rephrased as both having use rights to the content and specifying "waive claims of ownership against the site", but as a practical matter I'm fairly sure Juggle has no interest in stopping you from reusing the material you brought to the site somewhere else, as the moment they did there would be a massive drop in membership.
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
PARADIGM_L0ST
Posts: 6,958
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3/8/2011 11:38:02 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
I'm fairly sure Juggle has no interest in stopping you from reusing the material you brought to the site somewhere else:

^This^
"Have you ever considered suicide? If not, please do." -- Mouthwash (to Inferno)
badger
Posts: 11,793
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3/8/2011 12:12:47 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/8/2011 10:14:19 AM, bluesteel wrote:
It seems like anything that should be considered private (PM's) or removable (profile info, pictures) should continue to be our property. It's a little weird that Juggle would stake ownership claims of panda's profile pic, for example. I think if they tried to profit off something written in a PM, that'd also be a problem. But I can see how the site couldn't function without them owning our debate content. Otherwise, we could each ask for our share of the profits, based on how many debates we've done, Danielle getting the largest user share.

makes sense.. but remember that southpark episode about youtube stars getting paid? it said they couldn't be paid due to lack of technology or something like that... so i'm assuming youtube doesn't have the same condition in its tos?
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badger
Posts: 11,793
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3/8/2011 12:15:55 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
i think we should get rid of intellectual property! ...and see what happens. the way i imagine the world would be if we did is fairly cool..

...though i've not imagined past thieving stuff and selling it off a whole lot easier than i can now..

lol
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Ragnar_Rahl
Posts: 19,297
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3/8/2011 12:27:12 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
makes sense.. but remember that southpark episode about youtube stars getting paid? it said they couldn't be paid due to lack of technology or something like that... so i'm assuming youtube doesn't have the same condition in its tos?

If you get really, really popular videos you can apply for a share of ad revenue. As for ownership:

For clarity, you retain all of your ownership rights in your Content. However, by submitting Content to YouTube, you hereby grant YouTube a worldwide, non-exclusive, royalty-free, sublicenseable and transferable license to use, reproduce, distribute, prepare derivative works of, display, and perform the Content in connection with the Service and YouTube's (and its successors' and affiliates') business, including without limitation for promoting and redistributing part or all of the Service (and derivative works thereof) in any media formats and through any media channels. You also hereby grant each user of the Service a non-exclusive license to access your Content through the Service, and to use, reproduce, distribute, display and perform such Content as permitted through the functionality of the Service and under these Terms of Service.
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
badger
Posts: 11,793
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3/8/2011 6:25:06 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/8/2011 12:27:12 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
makes sense.. but remember that southpark episode about youtube stars getting paid? it said they couldn't be paid due to lack of technology or something like that... so i'm assuming youtube doesn't have the same condition in its tos?

If you get really, really popular videos you can apply for a share of ad revenue. As for ownership:

For clarity, you retain all of your ownership rights in your Content. However, by submitting Content to YouTube, you hereby grant YouTube a worldwide, non-exclusive, royalty-free, sublicenseable and transferable license to use, reproduce, distribute, prepare derivative works of, display, and perform the Content in connection with the Service and YouTube's (and its successors' and affiliates') business, including without limitation for promoting and redistributing part or all of the Service (and derivative works thereof) in any media formats and through any media channels. You also hereby grant each user of the Service a non-exclusive license to access your Content through the Service, and to use, reproduce, distribute, display and perform such Content as permitted through the functionality of the Service and under these Terms of Service.

ahhh.. so southpark is just a tv show...
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Atheism
Posts: 2,033
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3/8/2011 7:09:48 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/8/2011 11:33:58 AM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
I'm fairly sure Juggle has no interest in stopping you from reusing the material you brought to the site somewhere else, as the moment they did there would be a massive drop in membership.

Although, under the current stipulations, they could.
I miss the old members.
darkkermit
Posts: 11,204
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3/8/2011 10:34:03 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
How else did you guys think this site was going to make money. One of the workers flat out stated:

We purchased this site/community with a goal of expanding the debate functionality on Juggle. We launched the Juggle debates vertical to fill a void for intelligent, opinion based content on Juggle.com.

At the heart of the answer to both questions, lies one key strategic principle; intelligent, well researched content has value far beyond its potential advertising revenue. In addition to estimating revenue from ads, we quantify value using intangibles such as benefit to reputation, user loyalty, credibility, and relevance.


Why did you guys think DDO spent all the money this website + added features AND get rid of ads? There is no free lunch.
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