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Debate Tournament Update #3

Freeman
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3/12/2011 3:19:10 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Debate Tournament Update #3 Voting and Participation

Many of you have already started your debates. That's great. Of course, many of you have had tests over the past week and you are now just starting to recover. If you still have an interest in participating, it would be very helpful if you can indicate this. If for some reason you no longer would like to participate in the tournament, then that's fine. Please indicate this so that your partner can be matched up with someone else.

I know about the groups that are in bold, and those groups have plans that are already in the works. I'm not sure about the groups with ??? by them. A status update would be nice. Have you all been able to get in contact with your partner?

There is one more thing I would like to go over. Now that some of you have debates that are almost near completion, we need to finalize how we're going to handle voting. It would really drag out the tournament if debates ended up being decided three weeks or a month after they went into the voting period. As such, I encourage all of you to vote on each other's debates so that a winner can start to become clear. I'm flexible on this and am open to suggestions.

To take one debate as an example: http://www.debate.org...

After it is finished, it would be nice to have lots of people vote and leave RFDs. A winner should start to become obvious if everyone is engaged and leaving feedback. The same should be true of the other debates.

At one point, I was thinking that we should all weight our votes at 7 for the tournament so that we're all equal, but I'm not sure if that's still a good idea. Maybe it is. I'm also starting to think that other peoples votes should count even if they aren't in the tournament. Of course, there are bound to be votebombers. We can handle that on a case by case basis. Any input would be appreciated. Do these ideas seem alright?

=======
Round 1
=======

Brian v. mongoose
PcP v. Vi
Badger v. TUF ???
tvellalott v. Reasoning ???
feverish v. Hello-Orange ???
Freeman v. m93samman
Skeptic v. LF

Danielle v. Blackvoid --- http://www.debate.org...
CiRrK v. Sieben --- http://www.debate.org...
mongeese v. Roylatham ---http://www.debate.org...
wjmelements v. Grape
C_N v. UnitedAndy --- http://www.debate.org...
J.Kenyon v. Ann

Mongoose, since it doesn't seem likely that usaf is coming back anytime soon, why don't you start a debate with Brian. He's a nice guy and very funny.
Chancellor of Propaganda and Foreign Relations in the Franklin administration.

"I intend to live forever. So far, so good." -- Steven Wright
mongeese
Posts: 5,387
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3/12/2011 3:44:36 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
I think only the votes of tournament officials should count. There'd be way too much bias in decided what other people should be allowed to vote.
mongoose
Posts: 3,500
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3/12/2011 3:49:27 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
I thought Brian was debting Volkov.
It is odd when one's capacity for compassion is measured not in what he is willing to do by his own time, effort, and property, but what he will force others to do with their own property instead.
Freeman
Posts: 1,239
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3/12/2011 4:46:10 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/12/2011 3:49:27 PM, mongoose wrote:
I thought Brian was debting Volkov.

Volkov was a tentative add on my part. If he's still interested/available I can get him another partner.
Chancellor of Propaganda and Foreign Relations in the Franklin administration.

"I intend to live forever. So far, so good." -- Steven Wright
Freeman
Posts: 1,239
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3/12/2011 8:28:30 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
The first debate of the tournament has just been completed: http://www.debate.org...

Remember to leave RFDs if you vote.
Chancellor of Propaganda and Foreign Relations in the Franklin administration.

"I intend to live forever. So far, so good." -- Steven Wright
feverish
Posts: 2,716
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3/12/2011 9:19:36 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/12/2011 3:19:10 PM, Freeman wrote:
Debate Tournament Update #3 Voting and Participation

Many of you have already started your debates. That's great. Of course, many of you have had tests over the past week and you are now just starting to recover. If you still have an interest in participating, it would be very helpful if you can indicate this. If for some reason you no longer would like to participate in the tournament, then that's fine. Please indicate this so that your partner can be matched up with someone else.

I know about the groups that are in bold, and those groups have plans that are already in the works. I'm not sure about the groups with ??? by them. A status update would be nice. Have you all been able to get in contact with your partner?

feverish v. Hello-Orange ???

We are going to debate "Rehabilitation is more important than punishment". I am Pro. We will start this week.
Grape
Posts: 989
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3/12/2011 10:12:59 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
My debate with wjmelements is about to start. He has not accepted it yet but I have finished Round 1 and sent the challenge. Are we voting 7 points to the winner or voting normally?
Freeman
Posts: 1,239
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3/12/2011 10:19:04 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/12/2011 10:12:59 PM, Grape wrote:
My debate with wjmelements is about to start. He has not accepted it yet but I have finished Round 1 and sent the challenge. Are we voting 7 points to the winner or voting normally?

I think to keep things simple, it might be best to vote normally.
Chancellor of Propaganda and Foreign Relations in the Franklin administration.

"I intend to live forever. So far, so good." -- Steven Wright
LaissezFaire
Posts: 2,050
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3/12/2011 10:26:47 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/12/2011 10:19:04 PM, Freeman wrote:
At 3/12/2011 10:12:59 PM, Grape wrote:
My debate with wjmelements is about to start. He has not accepted it yet but I have finished Round 1 and sent the challenge. Are we voting 7 points to the winner or voting normally?

I think to keep things simple, it might be best to vote normally.

I thought we agreed earlier to vote 7-0, so everyone's vote would count the same.
Should we subsidize education?
http://www.debate.org...

http://mises.org...

http://lewrockwell.com...

http://antiwar.com...

: At 6/22/2011 6:57:23 PM, el-badgero wrote:
: i didn't like [Obama]. he was the only black dude in moneygall yet he claimed to be home. obvious liar is obvious liar. i bet him and bin laden are bumfvcking right now.
LaissezFaire
Posts: 2,050
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3/12/2011 10:31:15 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/12/2011 10:26:47 PM, LaissezFaire wrote:
At 3/12/2011 10:19:04 PM, Freeman wrote:
At 3/12/2011 10:12:59 PM, Grape wrote:
My debate with wjmelements is about to start. He has not accepted it yet but I have finished Round 1 and sent the challenge. Are we voting 7 points to the winner or voting normally?

I think to keep things simple, it might be best to vote normally.

I thought we agreed earlier to vote 7-0, so everyone's vote would count the same.

Also, do we have a set amount of votes per debate there should be? Like, stopping at 3 or 5 or whatever?
Should we subsidize education?
http://www.debate.org...

http://mises.org...

http://lewrockwell.com...

http://antiwar.com...

: At 6/22/2011 6:57:23 PM, el-badgero wrote:
: i didn't like [Obama]. he was the only black dude in moneygall yet he claimed to be home. obvious liar is obvious liar. i bet him and bin laden are bumfvcking right now.
Freeman
Posts: 1,239
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3/12/2011 10:51:15 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/12/2011 10:26:47 PM, LaissezFaire wrote:
At 3/12/2011 10:19:04 PM, Freeman wrote:
At 3/12/2011 10:12:59 PM, Grape wrote:
My debate with wjmelements is about to start. He has not accepted it yet but I have finished Round 1 and sent the challenge. Are we voting 7 points to the winner or voting normally?

I think to keep things simple, it might be best to vote normally.

I thought we agreed earlier to vote 7-0, so everyone's vote would count the same.

I just want everyone to be on the same page. When I originally came up with this idea, I could conceive of some benefits (e.g., everyone's vote is equal), but then I could also think of some setbacks. In the end, I've come to be agnostic about whether or not it would be a good idea for this to be implemented; however, if you and other people still think this is a good idea, I'm all for it. Grape seemed to like it (and so did some other people), so I'm cool with what everyone else thinks.
Chancellor of Propaganda and Foreign Relations in the Franklin administration.

"I intend to live forever. So far, so good." -- Steven Wright
Freeman
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3/12/2011 10:59:18 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/12/2011 10:31:15 PM, LaissezFaire wrote:
At 3/12/2011 10:26:47 PM, LaissezFaire wrote:
At 3/12/2011 10:19:04 PM, Freeman wrote:
At 3/12/2011 10:12:59 PM, Grape wrote:
My debate with wjmelements is about to start. He has not accepted it yet but I have finished Round 1 and sent the challenge. Are we voting 7 points to the winner or voting normally?

I think to keep things simple, it might be best to vote normally.

I thought we agreed earlier to vote 7-0, so everyone's vote would count the same.

Also, do we have a set amount of votes per debate there should be? Like, stopping at 3 or 5 or whatever?

I'd say 9 might be a good threshold. That might be kind of high, I know. But it does provide a good range. Technically speaking there are 26 people in the tournament. A majority of that would be 14.

If someone has more ideas, I'm all ears.
Chancellor of Propaganda and Foreign Relations in the Franklin administration.

"I intend to live forever. So far, so good." -- Steven Wright
Grape
Posts: 989
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3/12/2011 11:30:18 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
I am against considering votes from people outside the tournament. The very first person to vote in a tournament debate voted on the basis of one source that was part of a partially dropped argument. I do not want to hold everyone to defending every vote (the fact that I found Sieben's economic analysis very strong is highly subjective) but I think we should restrict votes to people who we know will vote reasonably (those in the tournament).
Freeman
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3/12/2011 11:51:33 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/12/2011 11:30:18 PM, Grape wrote:
I am against considering votes from people outside the tournament. The very first person to vote in a tournament debate voted on the basis of one source that was part of a partially dropped argument. I do not want to hold everyone to defending every vote (the fact that I found Sieben's economic analysis very strong is highly subjective) but I think we should restrict votes to people who we know will vote reasonably (those in the tournament).

I'm inclined to concur.
Chancellor of Propaganda and Foreign Relations in the Franklin administration.

"I intend to live forever. So far, so good." -- Steven Wright
mongeese
Posts: 5,387
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3/13/2011 11:44:07 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
I don't think there should be a "voting threshold." All votes by tournament participants within the time limit sould count. Sure, 14 is the majority, but it could quite likely still come up as 8-6, with three more votes shifting everything completely.
TUF
Posts: 21,309
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3/13/2011 1:24:45 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Hey, I am letting you know that we are still on board with the tournament. I will get the challenge to badger asap, I was just waiting to clear which topic of debate with him. We will be debating "If a tree
Falls in the Forrest and no one is around to hear it, does it still make a sound?" I'll try to post the challenge by tonight.
"I've got to go and grab a shirt" ~ Airmax1227
RoyLatham
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3/13/2011 10:49:02 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
I think that just tournament member votes should count for the tournament.

We can vote normally if we are just counting the votes of tournament members. Just count how many of the tournament members gave the majority of their points to Pro and how many gave the majority to Con. The tournament winner may differ from the DDO winner, but that could always happen. Normal voting will give a more accurate picture of the RFD and it will prevent the general public from concluding that all tournament members are vote bombers.

I doubt a high threshold will work. Maybe just a time limit of one or two weeks.
Grape
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3/14/2011 12:46:41 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
If there is no threshold than we will need to do something to incentive tournament members to vote (or require voting to advance if necessary). So far the first debate has only two votes.
BlackVoid
Posts: 9,170
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3/14/2011 12:54:17 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
Well that particular one was extremely long; 5 rounds. I'm pretty sure I'm in the minority of those who would read all that, let alone leave such an insane rfd. Might be less of a problem with three round debates.
J.Kenyon
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3/14/2011 10:00:02 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/14/2011 9:47:05 AM, Danielle wrote:
The first debate of the tournament is done :)

Thanks in advance to everyone who takes the time to read it.

http://www.debate.org...

The debate between Sieben and CiRrK was actually the first to finish. I'll read yours and vote after my Bio exam, wish me luck. Ugh...
Freeman
Posts: 1,239
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3/14/2011 12:10:36 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/14/2011 12:54:17 AM, BlackVoid wrote:
Well that particular one was extremely long; 5 rounds. I'm pretty sure I'm in the minority of those who would read all that, let alone leave such an insane rfd. Might be less of a problem with three round debates.

That's a very good point.

There's nothing really wrong with having 5 round debates, but it does make it less likely that people will read them.

To give some perspective, a three round debate allows someone to use 24,000 characters. That's roughly equivalent to a 12 page college paper in MLA format.

That should be ample room to make any arguments. Short of solving the world hunger crisis, that amount of room should suffice for most arugments.
Chancellor of Propaganda and Foreign Relations in the Franklin administration.

"I intend to live forever. So far, so good." -- Steven Wright
Freeman
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3/14/2011 12:42:25 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/13/2011 10:49:02 PM, RoyLatham wrote:
I think that just tournament member votes should count for the tournament.

We can vote normally if we are just counting the votes of tournament members. Just count how many of the tournament members gave the majority of their points to Pro and how many gave the majority to Con. The tournament winner may differ from the DDO winner, but that could always happen. Normal voting will give a more accurate picture of the RFD and it will prevent the general public from concluding that all tournament members are vote bombers.

I doubt a high threshold will work. Maybe just a time limit of one or two weeks.

I see what you're saying, but I still don't want there to be a Florida election type scenario. (You know, Gore got the popular vote but still lost.)

Someone could end up with a 7 to 5 victory (in terms of people voting for them) but still technically lose depending on how much people were weighting their votes.

In response to your second point: yeah, I guess that's a minor concern. But I don't think it's that big a deal if we explain what's going on.
Chancellor of Propaganda and Foreign Relations in the Franklin administration.

"I intend to live forever. So far, so good." -- Steven Wright
RoyLatham
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3/14/2011 2:18:03 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
I see what you're saying, but I still don't want there to be a Florida election type scenario. (You know, Gore got the popular vote but still lost.)

Someone could end up with a 7 to 5 victory (in terms of people voting for them) but still technically lose depending on how much people were weighting their votes.


OK, if that's the rule, but I sure don't like having to score a close debate that way.
LaissezFaire
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3/14/2011 3:32:21 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
@Freeman

Make a final decision regarding 7 point votes vs regular votes and message everyone in the tournament with that decision. There's some confusion on the voting of the debates that've finished.
Should we subsidize education?
http://www.debate.org...

http://mises.org...

http://lewrockwell.com...

http://antiwar.com...

: At 6/22/2011 6:57:23 PM, el-badgero wrote:
: i didn't like [Obama]. he was the only black dude in moneygall yet he claimed to be home. obvious liar is obvious liar. i bet him and bin laden are bumfvcking right now.
Freeman
Posts: 1,239
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3/14/2011 3:46:07 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/14/2011 3:32:21 PM, LaissezFaire wrote:
@Freeman

Make a final decision regarding 7 point votes vs regular votes and message everyone in the tournament with that decision. There's some confusion on the voting of the debates that've finished.

Ok, I will.
Chancellor of Propaganda and Foreign Relations in the Franklin administration.

"I intend to live forever. So far, so good." -- Steven Wright
LaissezFaire
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3/14/2011 3:48:36 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/14/2011 3:46:07 PM, Freeman wrote:
At 3/14/2011 3:32:21 PM, LaissezFaire wrote:
@Freeman

Make a final decision regarding 7 point votes vs regular votes and message everyone in the tournament with that decision. There's some confusion on the voting of the debates that've finished.

Ok, I will.

Something clarifying the rules on whether or not people should argue with RFDs in the comments section would be good too. I personally don't think that should be allowed, but it's up to you.
Should we subsidize education?
http://www.debate.org...

http://mises.org...

http://lewrockwell.com...

http://antiwar.com...

: At 6/22/2011 6:57:23 PM, el-badgero wrote:
: i didn't like [Obama]. he was the only black dude in moneygall yet he claimed to be home. obvious liar is obvious liar. i bet him and bin laden are bumfvcking right now.