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Proposing formula for percentile/leaderboard

Zealous1
Posts: 111
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3/15/2011 3:50:36 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Hey all,

I've decided to create a formula for the leader board since the current one is obviously messed up. (Someone with 5 debates, 3 wins, 2 losses is way above me and I have 8 debates, 8 wins, no ties, no losses).

Here is the proposed formula:

(Amount of debates) + (2 X wins) - (2 X losses) - (ties)

So take my record as an example:

(8) + 2(8) - 0 - 0 = 24

Take the other guy's record:

(5) + 2(3) - 2(2) - 0 = 7

Because Danielle is tops, let's take hers :D

(345) + 2(312) - 2(27) - 6 = (grabs calculator) 909

The guy right under her, Kleptin:

158 + 2(148) - 2(9) - 1 = 435

Obviously Danielle is still at the top.

This formula is way better than whatever is the current formula. I just checked the leaderboard: the person right above me is the one with 5 debates, three wins, two losses. But a person right above him has 7 debates, three wins, four losses. Let's calculate.

7 vs. 7 + 2(3) - 2(4) = 5

So the person right above me, with an 88.94% percentile, should be above four other people who have 5 points with this formula.

Someone else called InfraRedEd has 54 debates: 3 wins, 49 losses, 2 ties. That's a 5.77% win ratio. Terrible. Yet he's above people who haven't debated nearly as much, but still are good debaters.

Infra: 54 + 2(3) - 2(49) - 2 = -40

He should be way lower. In fact, I think anyone with a negative number should be off the leader board.

I think you've seen enough examples though. If you want to see what I'm referring to, go to page 17 on the leader board.

So, decide for yourself. Do you want a lousy leader board or one that actually sports skill?
LaissezFaire
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3/15/2011 4:04:24 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/15/2011 3:50:36 PM, Zealous1 wrote:
Hey all,

I've decided to create a formula for the leader board since the current one is obviously messed up. (Someone with 5 debates, 3 wins, 2 losses is way above me and I have 8 debates, 8 wins, no ties, no losses).

You are ahead of that person, the leader board just takes a bit to update. Didn't readyour proposed formula, because we already discussed this a while back and agreed (for the most part) on the Elo system.
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Zealous1
Posts: 111
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3/15/2011 4:31:45 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Yes, I know it takes a while to update. But still, there are people many pages above me and others. Are you SURE?

And, since you seem to know what you're talking about, what is the "Elo" system?
Ore_Ele
Posts: 25,980
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3/15/2011 4:36:03 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/15/2011 4:31:45 PM, Zealous1 wrote:
Yes, I know it takes a while to update. But still, there are people many pages above me and others. Are you SURE?

And, since you seem to know what you're talking about, what is the "Elo" system?

The same system that they use in Chess touries. It is a differential calculator. Rather than calculating your current score based on wins and loses, it calculates how much your rating would change based on if you won a debate against another person (so if you beat someone rated higher than you, it will make a bigger impact than if you beat a newb).
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Zealous1
Posts: 111
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3/15/2011 4:39:49 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/15/2011 4:36:03 PM, OreEle wrote:
At 3/15/2011 4:31:45 PM, Zealous1 wrote:
Yes, I know it takes a while to update. But still, there are people many pages above me and others. Are you SURE?

And, since you seem to know what you're talking about, what is the "Elo" system?

The same system that they use in Chess touries. It is a differential calculator. Rather than calculating your current score based on wins and loses, it calculates how much your rating would change based on if you won a debate against another person (so if you beat someone rated higher than you, it will make a bigger impact than if you beat a newb).

So basically, for an example, another guy with 3 debates and 3 wins is better than me because he debated harder people?

I guess it makes sense. Is there any other factor in the equation? For example, ties...
Thaddeus
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3/15/2011 4:42:34 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
I don't really see why it matters. Most people don't care about rank or percentage. Some people just take easy debates and have lots of wins, others only take interesting difficult debates. Doesn't mean that the ones with more wins is better.
Grape
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3/15/2011 4:46:08 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Ties just don't count in Elo as far as I know. There are no ties in major chess competitions because they play sets of games and they will just play tiebreakers over and over again to decide the set if necessary.

It's hard to explain how Elo works. Imagine everyone started equally, and then your rating went up for winning and down for losing. The greater the difference in the rating of you and your opponent the greater the swing (once people got different ratings). As your total number of debates goes up your rating becomes more stable. That is the gist of it.
darkkermit
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3/15/2011 4:46:49 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/15/2011 4:42:34 PM, Thaddeus wrote:
I don't really see why it matters. Most people don't care about rank or percentage. Some people just take easy debates and have lots of wins, others only take interesting difficult debates. Doesn't mean that the ones with more wins is better.

I care a little bit. It would motivate people to take up challenging debates, rather than do noob-sniping. I usually lose against good debaters, so I engage in noob-sniping from time to time to improve my debate record.

Plus the Elo-rating system would allow noobs to be somewhat from noob-sniping, since debating them would not increase ones ranking.
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Ore_Ele
Posts: 25,980
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3/15/2011 4:55:47 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/15/2011 4:39:49 PM, Zealous1 wrote:
At 3/15/2011 4:36:03 PM, OreEle wrote:
At 3/15/2011 4:31:45 PM, Zealous1 wrote:
Yes, I know it takes a while to update. But still, there are people many pages above me and others. Are you SURE?

And, since you seem to know what you're talking about, what is the "Elo" system?

The same system that they use in Chess touries. It is a differential calculator. Rather than calculating your current score based on wins and loses, it calculates how much your rating would change based on if you won a debate against another person (so if you beat someone rated higher than you, it will make a bigger impact than if you beat a newb).

So basically, for an example, another guy with 3 debates and 3 wins is better than me because he debated harder people?

I guess it makes sense. Is there any other factor in the equation? For example, ties...

I'm not sure about ties, though I imagine Danielle getting in a tie with a rookie should lower her score and raise the rookies.

But yes, it could be a simple derivative forumla. let's say R = your rank and O = your opponents rank.

just a possible example
R' = (1000 + O - R)/10 for a win and
R' = (1000 - O + R)/10 for a lose

That means that if your rank is 1,000 (just an arbitry starting point) and your opponent is the same. The winner will go up to a 1,100 and the loser would drop to 900.

This would mean to really rise in the ranking you would have to debate others that are doing well.
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Ore_Ele
Posts: 25,980
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3/15/2011 4:57:43 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/15/2011 4:55:47 PM, OreEle wrote:
At 3/15/2011 4:39:49 PM, Zealous1 wrote:
At 3/15/2011 4:36:03 PM, OreEle wrote:
At 3/15/2011 4:31:45 PM, Zealous1 wrote:
Yes, I know it takes a while to update. But still, there are people many pages above me and others. Are you SURE?

And, since you seem to know what you're talking about, what is the "Elo" system?

The same system that they use in Chess touries. It is a differential calculator. Rather than calculating your current score based on wins and loses, it calculates how much your rating would change based on if you won a debate against another person (so if you beat someone rated higher than you, it will make a bigger impact than if you beat a newb).

So basically, for an example, another guy with 3 debates and 3 wins is better than me because he debated harder people?

I guess it makes sense. Is there any other factor in the equation? For example, ties...

I'm not sure about ties, though I imagine Danielle getting in a tie with a rookie should lower her score and raise the rookies.

But yes, it could be a simple derivative forumla. let's say R = your rank and O = your opponents rank.

just a possible example
R' = (1000 + O - R)/10 for a win and
R' = (1000 - O + R)/10 for a lose

That means that if your rank is 1,000 (just an arbitry starting point) and your opponent is the same. The winner will go up to a 1,100 and the loser would drop to 900.

This would mean to really rise in the ranking you would have to debate others that are doing well.

Nevermind, this has drawbacks, as if someone that is doing really well goes against a newb, they will lose points, even if they win (if their ranking is more than 1,000 higher than the newb), and so this would discourage people from debating newbs. I want experienced people to debate other experienced people, but not at the cost of ignoring the newbs.
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Ore_Ele
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3/15/2011 5:00:40 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
You could do

R' = 20*(R+O)/R for a win
R' = 20*(R+O)/O for a lose

Though that has issues when playing against people with extremely low ratings, since if they do get a win, it can cause a major swing.
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Ore_Ele
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3/15/2011 5:03:27 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/15/2011 5:00:40 PM, OreEle wrote:
You could do

R' = 20*(R+O)/R for a win
R' = 20*(R+O)/O for a lose

Though that has issues when playing against people with extremely low ratings, since if they do get a win, it can cause a major swing.

Though this would work if you applied a rating floor of 200 (you can't dip below that, if you were to dip below, you are re-adjusted to be at 200).
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Ore_Ele
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3/15/2011 5:06:27 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
That would actually work for pretty much any situation.

If someone with a rating of 10,000 went against someone with a rating of 200. And the 200 won, the 200 would jump all the way to 1,220, while the 10,000 would fall to 8,980.

However, if the 10,000 won (much more likely), the 10,000 would only go up to 10,020, while the 200 would normally drop to 180, but be re-adjusted to 200.
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Danielle
Posts: 21,330
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3/16/2011 9:16:40 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
One day you're gonna wake up, the leaderboard will be different, you'll stretch and realize... IT DOESN'T FVCKING MATTER.
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Ore_Ele
Posts: 25,980
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3/16/2011 10:28:50 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/15/2011 5:03:27 PM, OreEle wrote:
At 3/15/2011 5:00:40 PM, OreEle wrote:
You could do

R' = 20*(R+O)/R for a win
R' = 20*(R+O)/O for a lose

Though that has issues when playing against people with extremely low ratings, since if they do get a win, it can cause a major swing.

Though this would work if you applied a rating floor of 200 (you can't dip below that, if you were to dip below, you are re-adjusted to be at 200).

And in the case of a tie, R' = 50*(O-R)/(O+R)

That way, in the case of a tie, if both players are equal, they are uneffected, but if they are unequal, than the person that is ranked lower will get a boost, and the player that is ranked higher will fall a bit.
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vardas0antras
Posts: 983
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3/16/2011 10:48:50 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/16/2011 9:16:40 AM, Danielle wrote:
One day you're gonna wake up, the leaderboard will be different, you'll stretch and realize... IT DOESN'T FVCKING MATTER.

I don't think people stretch in the real life when they wake up, or at least very rarely. Ergo, you're wrong.
"When he awoke in a tomb three days later he would actually have believed that he rose from the dead" FREEDO about the resurrection of Jesus Christ
Thaddeus
Posts: 6,985
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3/16/2011 10:54:37 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/16/2011 10:48:50 AM, vardas0antras wrote:
At 3/16/2011 9:16:40 AM, Danielle wrote:
One day you're gonna wake up, the leaderboard will be different, you'll stretch and realize... IT DOESN'T FVCKING MATTER.

I don't think people stretch in the real life when they wake up, or at least very rarely. Ergo, you're wrong.

I do.
Zealous1
Posts: 111
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3/16/2011 11:17:55 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/16/2011 9:16:40 AM, Danielle wrote:
One day you're gonna wake up, the leaderboard will be different, you'll stretch and realize... IT DOESN'T FVCKING MATTER.

Hmmm, somebody's happy.
Danielle
Posts: 21,330
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3/16/2011 11:26:35 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/15/2011 5:06:27 PM, OreEle wrote:
That would actually work for pretty much any situation.

If someone with a rating of 10,000 went against someone with a rating of 200. And the 200 won, the 200 would jump all the way to 1,220, while the 10,000 would fall to 8,980.

However, if the 10,000 won (much more likely), the 10,000 would only go up to 10,020, while the 200 would normally drop to 180, but be re-adjusted to 200.

And then we can multiply 2,000 to the 600th power minus the square root of 67.2 times the number of debates vote bombed plus 800/36ths of forfeits. After that we can multiply the number of bogus resolutions times the number of worthy opponents and subtract that figure from 90 degrees on the Y axis to determine the reAaLL LLLeeAAddEErrZZZZZ. SERIOUSLY PEOPLE! This is important!!!!!1111!!!! Juggle get on this IMMEDIATELY. The people are having an identity crisis.
President of DDO
Thaddeus
Posts: 6,985
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3/16/2011 11:28:50 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/16/2011 11:26:35 AM, Danielle wrote:
At 3/15/2011 5:06:27 PM, OreEle wrote:
That would actually work for pretty much any situation.

If someone with a rating of 10,000 went against someone with a rating of 200. And the 200 won, the 200 would jump all the way to 1,220, while the 10,000 would fall to 8,980.

However, if the 10,000 won (much more likely), the 10,000 would only go up to 10,020, while the 200 would normally drop to 180, but be re-adjusted to 200.

And then we can multiply 2,000 to the 600th power minus the square root of 67.2 times the number of debates vote bombed plus 800/36ths of forfeits. After that we can multiply the number of bogus resolutions times the number of worthy opponents and subtract that figure from 90 degrees on the Y axis to determine the reAaLL LLLeeAAddEErrZZZZZ. SERIOUSLY PEOPLE! This is important!!!!!1111!!!! Juggle get on this IMMEDIATELY. The people are having an identity crisis.

Please note. This is an example of how not to do irony.
Ore_Ele
Posts: 25,980
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3/16/2011 12:23:43 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/16/2011 11:26:35 AM, Danielle wrote:
At 3/15/2011 5:06:27 PM, OreEle wrote:
That would actually work for pretty much any situation.

If someone with a rating of 10,000 went against someone with a rating of 200. And the 200 won, the 200 would jump all the way to 1,220, while the 10,000 would fall to 8,980.

However, if the 10,000 won (much more likely), the 10,000 would only go up to 10,020, while the 200 would normally drop to 180, but be re-adjusted to 200.

And then we can multiply 2,000 to the 600th power minus the square root of 67.2 times the number of debates vote bombed plus 800/36ths of forfeits. After that we can multiply the number of bogus resolutions times the number of worthy opponents and subtract that figure from 90 degrees on the Y axis to determine the reAaLL LLLeeAAddEErrZZZZZ. SERIOUSLY PEOPLE! This is important!!!!!1111!!!! Juggle get on this IMMEDIATELY. The people are having an identity crisis.

For something that you say doesn't matter, you sure do whine about it more than anyone else.
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
vardas0antras
Posts: 983
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3/16/2011 12:36:43 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/16/2011 10:54:37 AM, Thaddeus wrote:
At 3/16/2011 10:48:50 AM, vardas0antras wrote:
At 3/16/2011 9:16:40 AM, Danielle wrote:
One day you're gonna wake up, the leaderboard will be different, you'll stretch and realize... IT DOESN'T FVCKING MATTER.

I don't think people stretch in the real life when they wake up, or at least very rarely. Ergo, you're wrong.

I do.
You're a weirdo, or a fan of Hollywood, so, please reconsider your ways for both options are not desirable.
"When he awoke in a tomb three days later he would actually have believed that he rose from the dead" FREEDO about the resurrection of Jesus Christ
Thaddeus
Posts: 6,985
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3/16/2011 1:40:04 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/16/2011 12:36:43 PM, vardas0antras wrote:
At 3/16/2011 10:54:37 AM, Thaddeus wrote:
At 3/16/2011 10:48:50 AM, vardas0antras wrote:
At 3/16/2011 9:16:40 AM, Danielle wrote:
One day you're gonna wake up, the leaderboard will be different, you'll stretch and realize... IT DOESN'T FVCKING MATTER.

I don't think people stretch in the real life when they wake up, or at least very rarely. Ergo, you're wrong.

I do.
You're a weirdo, or a fan of Hollywood, so, please reconsider your ways for both options are not desirable.

I don't stretch by waving my arms around. I start with the calves, work my way up, then go for a run.
Danielle
Posts: 21,330
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3/16/2011 2:03:10 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/16/2011 12:23:43 PM, OreEle wrote:
For something that you say doesn't matter, you sure do whine about it more than anyone else.

Get a grip. I've never once whined about the leader board. I'm mocking you. Not only are you sitting here crying about it, but you're spending time throughout your day to come up with a mathematical formula that will never truly depict a real "leader" anyway. There are too many variables. There's vote bombing. There's bias. There's forfeits. There's the fact that some people only debate n00bs. There's lack of voting. There's a lot of BS. You're trying awfully hard to come up with some truly insignificant list of who is the BEST when in reality it has absolutely no bearing not only on the world at large, but on this site. It's obvious some debaters are better than others, and we know who that is regardless of what the leader board says. Nobody will ever be satisfied. There will always be some way to manipulate it, and there will always be somebody complaining about why it's not accurate. But yeah keep stressing over it bro. You have fun with that.
President of DDO
Ore_Ele
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3/16/2011 3:12:46 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/16/2011 2:03:10 PM, Danielle wrote:
At 3/16/2011 12:23:43 PM, OreEle wrote:
For something that you say doesn't matter, you sure do whine about it more than anyone else.

Get a grip. I've never once whined about the leader board. I'm mocking you. Not only are you sitting here crying about it, but you're spending time throughout your day to come up with a mathematical formula that will never truly depict a real "leader" anyway. There are too many variables. There's vote bombing. There's bias. There's forfeits. There's the fact that some people only debate n00bs. There's lack of voting. There's a lot of BS. You're trying awfully hard to come up with some truly insignificant list of who is the BEST when in reality it has absolutely no bearing not only on the world at large, but on this site. It's obvious some debaters are better than others, and we know who that is regardless of what the leader board says. Nobody will ever be satisfied. There will always be some way to manipulate it, and there will always be somebody complaining about why it's not accurate. But yeah keep stressing over it bro. You have fun with that.

I'm actually not trying that hard at all. If you think spending 5 minutes to come up with a differential formula is hard, then I'm sorry for you. But you are whiny. You're crying in all capital letters. You're saying "it's too hard, you should all give up. You'll never get something perfectly accurate so why bother?"

I just find it comical, that of all the people that think that the leader board should be scraped to begin with, you're the only one that cries about people not doing what you want. It's hilarious, almost as much fun as askbob harassing spammers.
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
Zealous1
Posts: 111
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3/16/2011 3:50:28 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/16/2011 2:03:10 PM, Danielle wrote:
At 3/16/2011 12:23:43 PM, OreEle wrote:
For something that you say doesn't matter, you sure do whine about it more than anyone else.

Get a grip. I've never once whined about the leader board. I'm mocking you. Not only are you sitting here crying about it, but you're spending time throughout your day to come up with a mathematical formula that will never truly depict a real "leader" anyway. There are too many variables. There's vote bombing. There's bias. There's forfeits. There's the fact that some people only debate n00bs. There's lack of voting. There's a lot of BS. You're trying awfully hard to come up with some truly insignificant list of who is the BEST when in reality it has absolutely no bearing not only on the world at large, but on this site. It's obvious some debaters are better than others, and we know who that is regardless of what the leader board says. Nobody will ever be satisfied. There will always be some way to manipulate it, and there will always be somebody complaining about why it's not accurate. But yeah keep stressing over it bro. You have fun with that.

1. You have nothing to worry about. You're the top on the list.

2. Yes, it can always be abused. But yes, it can be made harder to abuse.
Thaddeus
Posts: 6,985
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3/16/2011 4:23:23 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/16/2011 2:03:10 PM, Danielle wrote:
At 3/16/2011 12:23:43 PM, OreEle wrote:
For something that you say doesn't matter, you sure do whine about it more than anyone else.

Get a grip. I've never once whined about the leader board. I'm mocking you. Not only are you sitting here crying about it, but you're spending time throughout your day to come up with a mathematical formula that will never truly depict a real "leader" anyway. There are too many variables. There's vote bombing. There's bias. There's forfeits. There's the fact that some people only debate n00bs. There's lack of voting. There's a lot of BS. You're trying awfully hard to come up with some truly insignificant list of who is the BEST when in reality it has absolutely no bearing not only on the world at large, but on this site. It's obvious some debaters are better than others, and we know who that is regardless of what the leader board says. Nobody will ever be satisfied. There will always be some way to manipulate it, and there will always be somebody complaining about why it's not accurate. But yeah keep stressing over it bro. You have fun with that.

This. It doesn't mean anything.
Danielle
Posts: 21,330
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3/17/2011 9:00:56 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/16/2011 3:12:46 PM, OreEle wrote:
I'm actually not trying that hard at all.

You're trying to begin with. I win.

If you think spending 5 minutes to come up with a differential formula is hard, then I'm sorry for you. But you are whiny. You're crying in all capital letters. You're saying "it's too hard, you should all give up. You'll never get something perfectly accurate so why bother?"

I didn't "cry" (in all capital letters no less lol wtf) nor did I "whine." You're making that up. I could just as easily sit here and say you're hysterical crying, whining and sobbing your a$s of uncontrollably right now. See what I did there? I made an accusation. Clearly it's true. Stop crying. You're crying right now. You're so whiney. Stop crying. You're crying. Waaah. Cry.

I just find it comical, that of all the people that think that the leader board should be scraped to begin with, you're the only one that cries about people not doing what you want. It's hilarious, almost as much fun as askbob harassing spammers.

Faaail. Try insulting me in a way that actually makes sense next time.

I'm not crying about people not "doing what I want." I'm making fun of people dedicating innumerable debate resolutions, forum topics, countless threads, various PMs, etc. to the cause of having the leader board order be changed. It will never satisfy anybody - trust me. I personally don't care if I'm #300. It won't change my ability one iota :) So go nuts. Change away nigga.
President of DDO
Ore_Ele
Posts: 25,980
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3/17/2011 10:10:35 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/17/2011 9:00:56 AM, Danielle wrote:
At 3/16/2011 3:12:46 PM, OreEle wrote:
I'm actually not trying that hard at all.

You're trying to begin with. I win.

That's how you define winning? okay. Congrats, you just won! You're prize...absolutely nothing. I hope you have fun playing.


If you think spending 5 minutes to come up with a differential formula is hard, then I'm sorry for you. But you are whiny. You're crying in all capital letters. You're saying "it's too hard, you should all give up. You'll never get something perfectly accurate so why bother?"

I didn't "cry" (in all capital letters no less lol wtf) nor did I "whine." You're making that up. I could just as easily sit here and say you're hysterical crying, whining and sobbing your a$s of uncontrollably right now. See what I did there? I made an accusation. Clearly it's true. Stop crying. You're crying right now. You're so whiney. Stop crying. You're crying. Waaah. Cry.

You're not very good at hiding your hormones.


I just find it comical, that of all the people that think that the leader board should be scraped to begin with, you're the only one that cries about people not doing what you want. It's hilarious, almost as much fun as askbob harassing spammers.

Faaail. Try insulting me in a way that actually makes sense next time.

I'm sorry you can't follow something so simple.


I'm not crying about people not "doing what I want." I'm making fun of people dedicating innumerable debate resolutions, forum topics, countless threads, various PMs, etc. to the cause of having the leader board order be changed. It will never satisfy anybody - trust me. I personally don't care if I'm #300. It won't change my ability one iota :) So go nuts. Change away nigga.

You can't count the threads? Can you not count to like 10? Would you like me to do it for you? It'll take just a few minutes. I imagine that you have at least that much free time.
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"