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Introducing: The Cleaners

Kleptin
Posts: 5,095
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10/17/2008 6:54:00 AM
Posted: 8 years ago
The Cleaners are dedicated to improving the quality and integrity of debate.org

This group is made up of skilled, articulate debaters who understand that voting should be done without outside influences. The goal of this group is to provide attention to debates and give detailed explanations and words of advice.

Each member will vote independently, there is no agreement as to which side the group will vote for. This forum topic will be devoted to discussion of debates and on bettering The Cleaners as a group. All are welcome to view, and also to participate provided that you offer productive advice.

Spamming, trolling, and whatnot shall simply be ignored.

We look forward to serving you and helping to make voting on debate.org just.
: At 5/2/2010 2:43:54 PM, innomen wrote:
It isn't about finding a theory, philosophy or doctrine and thinking it's the answer, but a practical application of one's experiences that is the answer.

: At 10/28/2010 2:40:07 PM, jharry wrote: I have already been given the greatest Gift that anyone could ever hope for [Life], I would consider myself selfish if I expected anything more.
Kleptin
Posts: 5,095
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10/17/2008 6:58:47 AM
Posted: 8 years ago
The first issue we are attempting to settle as a group, is how to incorporate "Burden of Proof" into voting.

Please, continue the discussion here.
: At 5/2/2010 2:43:54 PM, innomen wrote:
It isn't about finding a theory, philosophy or doctrine and thinking it's the answer, but a practical application of one's experiences that is the answer.

: At 10/28/2010 2:40:07 PM, jharry wrote: I have already been given the greatest Gift that anyone could ever hope for [Life], I would consider myself selfish if I expected anything more.
JBlake
Posts: 4,634
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10/17/2008 7:11:57 AM
Posted: 8 years ago
I am glad that this will be a transparent group.

As to burden of proof:

Obviously it is up to the interpretation of each voter. I find that there are some cases where the instigator has a clear burden of proof. But to steal Beem0r's thunder, in most cases both sides have a certain burden to meet.
LR4N6FTW4EVA
Posts: 190
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10/17/2008 7:58:55 AM
Posted: 8 years ago
At 10/17/2008 7:11:57 AM, JBlake wrote:
I am glad that this will be a transparent group.

As to burden of proof:

Obviously it is up to the interpretation of each voter. I find that there are some cases where the instigator has a clear burden of proof. But to steal Beem0r's thunder, in most cases both sides have a certain burden to meet.

I think it depends. If the resolution is "John McCain is God" Pro has to prove that that is true. Con must show that it isn't true, they don't have to prove anything. Their job is to refute Pro.
Logical-Master
Posts: 2,538
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10/17/2008 10:11:56 AM
Posted: 8 years ago
Me personally? There are many different ways to interpret the BOF. I shall judge based on how the debaters set it in the round (for example, if the instigator says that the contender has the BOF at the beginning of the round and the contender does not object to this, I shall follow that understanding of the BOF).
brittwaller
Posts: 331
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10/17/2008 10:37:24 AM
Posted: 8 years ago
If there is an agreement within the debate as to who has the BOP, I go along with that, as L-M suggested. Otherwise:
If a debater is the Instigator and the PRO, the BOP clearly lies with that debater. CON does not have a BOP, they must simply refute PRO.

If a debater is the Instigator and the CON, PRO still has the BOP, as they are the one that must affirm the resolution. However, depending on how the opening arguments are framed and what the resolution is, it is less clear than in the first case. Say that the Instigator chooses CON and gives this resolution: "The Earth is a Sphere." In this case CON clearly has as much BOP as PRO does by default. If the Instigator chooses CON and writes the resolution "The Earth is Flat" then PRO has the BOP.

Different debates will have subtleties and nuances that will have to be taken into account, so it's very difficult to create an all-inclusive rule.
Don't I take care of them all?
Zerosmelt
Posts: 287
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10/17/2008 11:22:30 AM
Posted: 8 years ago
At 10/17/2008 10:37:24 AM, brittwaller wrote:
If there is an agreement within the debate as to who has the BOP, I go along with that, as L-M suggested. Otherwise:
If a debater is the Instigator and the PRO, the BOP clearly lies with that debater. CON does not have a BOP, they must simply refute PRO.

If a debater is the Instigator and the CON, PRO still has the BOP, as they are the one that must affirm the resolution. However, depending on how the opening arguments are framed and what the resolution is, it is less clear than in the first case. Say that the Instigator chooses CON and gives this resolution: "The Earth is a Sphere." In this case CON clearly has as much BOP as PRO does by default. If the Instigator chooses CON and writes the resolution "The Earth is Flat" then PRO has the BOP.

Different debates will have subtleties and nuances that will have to be taken into account, so it's very difficult to create an all-inclusive rule.

So I am basically in Agreement with Britt here only when it comes to the "earth is sphere" debate i would still put the BOP on PRO because i don't think that the "status quo" of belief should have any special precedence. Note: In that debate CON wouldn't necessarily be arguing that the earth is flat. Evidence should speak for itself, there is simply more evidence that the earth is a sphere than that it is anything else.

I also, obviously don't adhere to proof in the absolute sense; that nothing can be proven, when it comes to judging a debate. BOP in a debate context refers to who most sufficiently proves their position.
Harlan
Posts: 1,880
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10/17/2008 3:49:00 PM
Posted: 8 years ago
What is the purpose of having a group on this site anyways. To feel accepted?

Once groups are incorporated into the sight, than it will no doubt have advantages with it, but what is the purpose of just saying that youre a part of a group, when nothing has really changed as to youre advantages of what you can do on the site, it's all superficial.

Groups = commitment = self imposed limits = less individuasm
PoeJoe
Posts: 3,822
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10/17/2008 3:56:05 PM
Posted: 8 years ago
I was originally against the idea of "The Cleaners". I believed groups were what was wrong in the first place, and that creating ANOTHER group would do no good. I've since changed my mind.

"The Cleaners" are a very professional group. The group invites people from all political spectrums, and they require its members to offer justification for all their votes. The group is selective, yes, but that is only to set a high standard for its members. The group is a voting group, yes, but it does not collectively vote one way.

Case in point: Vote bombing has gone out of control, and something needs to be done about it.

Given all this, I've decided to join this group. Kleptin has agreed to let me.

________________

I believe both debaters bear the burden of proof. I believe any statement that is not overwhelmingly under consensus needs to be proven. And both debaters should make some statements on their position -- it should not only be carried on PRO's back.
Television Rot: http://tvrot.com...
Rezzealaux
Posts: 2,251
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10/17/2008 4:52:08 PM
Posted: 8 years ago
At 10/17/2008 3:49:00 PM, Harlan wrote:
Groups = commitment = self imposed limits = less individuasm

You want individualism, get out of society.
: If you weren't new here, you'd know not to feed me such attention. This is like an orgasm in my brain right now. *hehe, my name is in a title, hehe* (http://www.debate.org...)

Just in case I get into some BS with FREEDO again about how he's NOT a narcissist.

"The law is there to destroy evil under the constitutional government."
So... what's there to destroy evil inside of and above the constitutional government?
Harlan
Posts: 1,880
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10/17/2008 5:01:52 PM
Posted: 8 years ago
At 10/17/2008 4:52:08 PM, Rezzealaux wrote:
At 10/17/2008 3:49:00 PM, Harlan wrote:
Groups = commitment = self imposed limits = less individuasm

You want individualism, get out of society.

Did I say that all things that lessen individualism are inherently bad? no. Some things are, though.
Harlan
Posts: 1,880
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10/17/2008 5:03:55 PM
Posted: 8 years ago
Case in point: Vote bombing has gone out of control, and something needs to be done about it.

Listen, I am not exactly denouncing your group. I am just curious, though, how is your group going to affect vote-bombing? If anything, it might make it worse.
JBlake
Posts: 4,634
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10/17/2008 6:22:15 PM
Posted: 8 years ago
At 10/17/2008 5:03:55 PM, Harlan wrote:
Case in point: Vote bombing has gone out of control, and something needs to be done about it.

Listen, I am not exactly denouncing your group. I am just curious, though, how is your group going to affect vote-bombing? If anything, it might make it worse.

The more objective votes cast make the 'vote bomb' less effective. We won't be voting to correct the 'vote bomb' by voting on the opposite side. It will be bringing attention to such a debate in which this has occurred and give both debaters a fair shot.
Kleptin
Posts: 5,095
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10/17/2008 7:38:47 PM
Posted: 8 years ago
Guys, PLEASE do not yell at the people on this board, or offend them in any way.

This topic serves to eliminate misconceptions.

Harlan, you bring up a good point. Please allow me to explain.

Josh is right. The Cleaners serve to bring attention to debates. All individualism is retained. In a way, you can say that we increase the activity of the site without biasing it in any way, much like how stirring your cup of coffee after adding cream neither reduces or increases the amount of cream.
: At 5/2/2010 2:43:54 PM, innomen wrote:
It isn't about finding a theory, philosophy or doctrine and thinking it's the answer, but a practical application of one's experiences that is the answer.

: At 10/28/2010 2:40:07 PM, jharry wrote: I have already been given the greatest Gift that anyone could ever hope for [Life], I would consider myself selfish if I expected anything more.
Kleptin
Posts: 5,095
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10/17/2008 7:47:48 PM
Posted: 8 years ago
I would like everyone to welcome Cirro, the newest member of The Cleaners :)

I am very glad he decided to join as I have followed many of his debates, and found that although I disagree with some of his positions, I find that he does a spectacular job arguing them.

Welcome Cirro!
: At 5/2/2010 2:43:54 PM, innomen wrote:
It isn't about finding a theory, philosophy or doctrine and thinking it's the answer, but a practical application of one's experiences that is the answer.

: At 10/28/2010 2:40:07 PM, jharry wrote: I have already been given the greatest Gift that anyone could ever hope for [Life], I would consider myself selfish if I expected anything more.
Ragnar_Rahl
Posts: 19,297
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10/17/2008 7:57:39 PM
Posted: 8 years ago
You want individualism, get out of society

Society won't let me. National parks, the Antarctic Treaty System.... where's there to go? :D
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
Harlan
Posts: 1,880
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10/17/2008 8:11:23 PM
Posted: 8 years ago
At 10/17/2008 7:38:47 PM, Kleptin wrote:
Harlan, you bring up a good point. Please allow me to explain.

Josh is right. The Cleaners serve to bring attention to debates. All individualism is retained. In a way, you can say that we increase the activity of the site without biasing it in any way, much like how stirring your cup of coffee after adding cream neither reduces or increases the amount of cream.

I am sorry, Kleptin, that I continue to not understand, but why do you need to make a group with a name, and organization to bring attention to debates. Aren't you really just making this club for fun?
Rezzealaux
Posts: 2,251
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10/17/2008 9:07:41 PM
Posted: 8 years ago
At 10/17/2008 8:11:23 PM, Harlan wrote:
Aren't you really just making this club for fun?

If I could post pictures like I do on /a/......
: If you weren't new here, you'd know not to feed me such attention. This is like an orgasm in my brain right now. *hehe, my name is in a title, hehe* (http://www.debate.org...)

Just in case I get into some BS with FREEDO again about how he's NOT a narcissist.

"The law is there to destroy evil under the constitutional government."
So... what's there to destroy evil inside of and above the constitutional government?
Zerosmelt
Posts: 287
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10/17/2008 9:12:36 PM
Posted: 8 years ago
Harlan you need to realize that we don't actually have any special privileges we cannot do anything that you cannot do. We have just formed an agreement with each other to take certain actions. I would encourage you and everyone else to do exactly what we are doing.

I mean when you really analyze what we are; we've just decided to use this site in the way it should be used anyway. Everyone should be voting objectively and explaining why they have done so.
Kleptin
Posts: 5,095
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10/18/2008 11:40:52 AM
Posted: 8 years ago
At 10/17/2008 8:11:23 PM, Harlan wrote:
At 10/17/2008 7:38:47 PM, Kleptin wrote:
Harlan, you bring up a good point. Please allow me to explain.

Josh is right. The Cleaners serve to bring attention to debates. All individualism is retained. In a way, you can say that we increase the activity of the site without biasing it in any way, much like how stirring your cup of coffee after adding cream neither reduces or increases the amount of cream.

I am sorry, Kleptin, that I continue to not understand, but why do you need to make a group with a name, and organization to bring attention to debates. Aren't you really just making this club for fun?

Actually, no. If you look at any debate, you will notice that for the most part, the number of votes is extraordinarily low. Not only that, there are little to no explanations for each vote.

I have created this group to spread the habit of both voting, and offering an explanation in the comments section as to why the votes were cast.

That's it. Only 3 criterion to be a Cleaner.

1. Vote intelligently
2. Explain your vote intelligently
3. Do both of those as often as possible.

Thus, by strictly enforcing those three rules on our members, and simultaneously increasing our numbers, all of debate.org will eventually pick up this habit.
: At 5/2/2010 2:43:54 PM, innomen wrote:
It isn't about finding a theory, philosophy or doctrine and thinking it's the answer, but a practical application of one's experiences that is the answer.

: At 10/28/2010 2:40:07 PM, jharry wrote: I have already been given the greatest Gift that anyone could ever hope for [Life], I would consider myself selfish if I expected anything more.
Kleptin
Posts: 5,095
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10/18/2008 11:41:22 AM
Posted: 8 years ago
I'd like everyone to welcome JOJO to the cleaners :P
: At 5/2/2010 2:43:54 PM, innomen wrote:
It isn't about finding a theory, philosophy or doctrine and thinking it's the answer, but a practical application of one's experiences that is the answer.

: At 10/28/2010 2:40:07 PM, jharry wrote: I have already been given the greatest Gift that anyone could ever hope for [Life], I would consider myself selfish if I expected anything more.
brittwaller
Posts: 331
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10/18/2008 11:47:13 AM
Posted: 8 years ago
lol I would say that as of now, all of my debates have been compromised and politicized. Some have already been turned around, but in my opinion, and at least one other's, the majority of them need to be cleaned. Here we will be able to show exactly what we are planning on doing, and how it is done. This, I think, will clear up any misconceptions that any but our most ardent detractors have.
Don't I take care of them all?
JBlake
Posts: 4,634
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10/18/2008 11:49:47 AM
Posted: 8 years ago
Adding to that it is not just for fun:

Providing feedback in the comment sections will, of course, help debaters get better since they will have a number of experienced debaters providing critiques.
Kleptin
Posts: 5,095
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10/18/2008 3:26:44 PM
Posted: 8 years ago
I'm kind of wary about posting debates to be cleaned on this board, I don't want others to get the notion that we exist only to boost rank among our own members.

I'm planning on organizing self-cleaning later on, but as for now, there are still things to be planned.
: At 5/2/2010 2:43:54 PM, innomen wrote:
It isn't about finding a theory, philosophy or doctrine and thinking it's the answer, but a practical application of one's experiences that is the answer.

: At 10/28/2010 2:40:07 PM, jharry wrote: I have already been given the greatest Gift that anyone could ever hope for [Life], I would consider myself selfish if I expected anything more.
Kleptin
Posts: 5,095
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10/18/2008 3:32:05 PM
Posted: 8 years ago
ATTENTION ALL CLEANERS:

I am creating a roster. I need every Cleaner to send me a message saying "Here". From this, I shall then message you all as a group (since members have updated since our first round of messages)
: At 5/2/2010 2:43:54 PM, innomen wrote:
It isn't about finding a theory, philosophy or doctrine and thinking it's the answer, but a practical application of one's experiences that is the answer.

: At 10/28/2010 2:40:07 PM, jharry wrote: I have already been given the greatest Gift that anyone could ever hope for [Life], I would consider myself selfish if I expected anything more.
knick-knack
Posts: 125
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10/18/2008 3:32:54 PM
Posted: 8 years ago
Wow, you guys take this site waaaaayyyyyyy too seriously...

I think I will form a group called "The Cleansing of The Cleaners"
Then A group will be formed called "Cleaning the Cleansing of The Cleaners"

Seriously, some of you need to get a life other than worrying about win ratios.
John Hancock