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My Issues With this Site

Cerebral_Narcissist
Posts: 10,806
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7/16/2011 11:41:51 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
I may as well jump on the bandwagon.

My issue with this site is that people do not defend their core beliefs, but they pretend to do so. This site is (was?) full of some very clever people, who hold positions not by reason or logic, but by blind faith alone. Scrutiny, however polite it is expressed makes them defensive.

The same members who complain about the lack of voting in debates are the very ones who refuse to vote. Voting is often a matter of popularity not actually down to who has one. Look at my debates with J.Kenyon and The Skeptic, and yet the narrow elite of faux intellectuals believe that this site should be taken seriously as a debate site? Have a shred of intellectual honesty.

The whole crap with askbob, seriously so he is funny. But in the real world his neck would be broken, the actions he has taken have been bloody disgusting but it's all good because "we r teh annakists and we dun liek dem rules we r so edgy".

Rant over.
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
Double_R
Posts: 4,886
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7/16/2011 11:52:17 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
C_N, I agree with most of what you said but the biggest issue with this site right now are all of the posts about how bad this site has gotten. This isn't helping.
el-badgero
Posts: 1,045
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7/16/2011 11:58:10 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
i figure a conversion to elo or something like it would be awesome.
DATCMOTO's moustache makes him look like an eejit...

edit: nah, i'm jealous... God's an eejit definitely though!
el-badgero
Posts: 1,045
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7/16/2011 12:00:45 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
well not that it'd rule out there still being logically wrong votes. but i just figure it'd be awesome lol.
DATCMOTO's moustache makes him look like an eejit...

edit: nah, i'm jealous... God's an eejit definitely though!
el-badgero
Posts: 1,045
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7/16/2011 12:02:35 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
not that i looked at your debates.
DATCMOTO's moustache makes him look like an eejit...

edit: nah, i'm jealous... God's an eejit definitely though!
el-badgero
Posts: 1,045
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7/16/2011 12:10:39 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
not that i don't think ddo is awesome as it is. but it could be awesomer?
DATCMOTO's moustache makes him look like an eejit...

edit: nah, i'm jealous... God's an eejit definitely though!
el-badgero
Posts: 1,045
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7/16/2011 12:12:55 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
well it'd be interesting at the least, who knows whether it'd produce better quality debates... capitalism, communism debate? lol ..we're obviously currently communists.
DATCMOTO's moustache makes him look like an eejit...

edit: nah, i'm jealous... God's an eejit definitely though!
el-badgero
Posts: 1,045
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7/16/2011 12:20:46 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
well i suppose there's an argument in it :) but i meant as a means of production of ideas and arguments for everybody.. and i suppose there's still an argument in it..
DATCMOTO's moustache makes him look like an eejit...

edit: nah, i'm jealous... God's an eejit definitely though!
el-badgero
Posts: 1,045
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7/16/2011 12:23:01 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
well no we're communists.
DATCMOTO's moustache makes him look like an eejit...

edit: nah, i'm jealous... God's an eejit definitely though!
RoyLatham
Posts: 4,488
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7/16/2011 12:26:51 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
I don't get the point. I don't particularly care if the site is "taken seriously" or not. If it were taken more seriously, perhaps more good debaters would be attracted to the site, and that would be good. The site would surely be improved if the spam and abusive talk were cleaned up. It doesn't bother me if high school kids want to debate the burning question of Batman v. Naruto. They are learning to debate using subjects they know and that's fine.

My objective is to debate, and the site supports that. Could be better, but good debates can be had.

Most of the site members are young, so they are much more likely to argue most topics based upon theory rather than facts brought by experience. that gives an airy fairy cast to the enterprise. However, the compensating advantage is that theirs are not set in concrete. They need theoretical beliefs to argue, but they actually can change.
innomen
Posts: 10,052
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7/16/2011 12:28:38 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 7/16/2011 12:26:51 PM, RoyLatham wrote:
I don't get the point. I don't particularly care if the site is "taken seriously" or not. If it were taken more seriously, perhaps more good debaters would be attracted to the site, and that would be good. The site would surely be improved if the spam and abusive talk were cleaned up. It doesn't bother me if high school kids want to debate the burning question of Batman v. Naruto. They are learning to debate using subjects they know and that's fine.

My objective is to debate, and the site supports that. Could be better, but good debates can be had.

Most of the site members are young, so they are much more likely to argue most topics based upon theory rather than facts brought by experience. that gives an airy fairy cast to the enterprise. However, the compensating advantage is that theirs are not set in concrete. They need theoretical beliefs to argue, but they actually can change.

Nice post.
Man-is-good
Posts: 6,871
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7/16/2011 12:41:33 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 7/16/2011 11:52:17 AM, Double_R wrote:
C_N, I agree with most of what you said but the biggest issue with this site right now are all of the posts about how bad this site has gotten. This isn't helping.

I guess the worst part of any situation are the ones who love to pin-point the problems instead of helping...Creating useless forums isn't helping or that productive to this site.
"Homo sum, humani nihil a me alienum puto." --Terence

"I believe that the mind can be permanently profaned by the habit of attending to trivial things, so that all our thoughts shall be tinged with triviality."--Thoreau
Lasagna
Posts: 2,440
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7/16/2011 1:37:26 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Roy and Innomen:

As (perhaps) the oldest members of the site, what brought you guys here? The biggest thing we lack is older members, so I see that as the largest untapped resource for DDO. If I want to know what a teenager thinks of the government, I can get that here, but I wish there were more older folks to round out these discussions.
Rob
innomen
Posts: 10,052
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7/16/2011 1:54:53 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 7/16/2011 1:37:26 PM, Lasagna wrote:
Roy and Innomen:

As (perhaps) the oldest members of the site, what brought you guys here? The biggest thing we lack is older members, so I see that as the largest untapped resource for DDO. If I want to know what a teenager thinks of the government, I can get that here, but I wish there were more older folks to round out these discussions.

You want the truth of why older people wouldn't like it here?

all the kids.
Man-is-good
Posts: 6,871
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7/16/2011 2:13:55 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 7/16/2011 1:54:53 PM, innomen wrote:
At 7/16/2011 1:37:26 PM, Lasagna wrote:
Roy and Innomen:

As (perhaps) the oldest members of the site, what brought you guys here? The biggest thing we lack is older members, so I see that as the largest untapped resource for DDO. If I want to know what a teenager thinks of the government, I can get that here, but I wish there were more older folks to round out these discussions.

You want the truth of why older people wouldn't like it here?

all the kids.

Does that include me?
"Homo sum, humani nihil a me alienum puto." --Terence

"I believe that the mind can be permanently profaned by the habit of attending to trivial things, so that all our thoughts shall be tinged with triviality."--Thoreau
innomen
Posts: 10,052
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7/16/2011 2:25:28 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 7/16/2011 2:13:55 PM, Man-is-good wrote:
At 7/16/2011 1:54:53 PM, innomen wrote:
At 7/16/2011 1:37:26 PM, Lasagna wrote:
Roy and Innomen:

As (perhaps) the oldest members of the site, what brought you guys here? The biggest thing we lack is older members, so I see that as the largest untapped resource for DDO. If I want to know what a teenager thinks of the government, I can get that here, but I wish there were more older folks to round out these discussions.

You want the truth of why older people wouldn't like it here?

all the kids.

Does that include me?

Obviously Roy and I are different in how we see you guys. I've learned more from some of the members here who are more than half my age, than professors who are older than I am. However, if you think that the average adult will willingly engage in a discussion steeped in logical fallacies, it aint gonna happen.
PARADIGM_L0ST
Posts: 6,958
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7/16/2011 2:26:27 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 7/16/2011 2:13:55 PM, Man-is-good wrote:
At 7/16/2011 1:54:53 PM, innomen wrote:
At 7/16/2011 1:37:26 PM, Lasagna wrote:
Roy and Innomen:

As (perhaps) the oldest members of the site, what brought you guys here? The biggest thing we lack is older members, so I see that as the largest untapped resource for DDO. If I want to know what a teenager thinks of the government, I can get that here, but I wish there were more older folks to round out these discussions.

You want the truth of why older people wouldn't like it here?

all the kids.

Does that include me?:

I think Innomen (and Rob, for that matter) probably means it euphemistically. If you act like you're 12, then you'll be treated as such. But there are young'ins here that act far more mature than, well, me. Correspondingly, he treats you the way you act. He's not an ageist.

So, nanny-nanny-boo-boo, stick your head in poo-poo.

I'm sorry about that, I just couldn't resist. The adolescent in me cries out some times. I think it might be a mid-life crisis.

Carry on.
"Have you ever considered suicide? If not, please do." -- Mouthwash (to Inferno)
Man-is-good
Posts: 6,871
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7/16/2011 2:28:22 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 7/16/2011 2:25:28 PM, innomen wrote:
At 7/16/2011 2:13:55 PM, Man-is-good wrote:
At 7/16/2011 1:54:53 PM, innomen wrote:
At 7/16/2011 1:37:26 PM, Lasagna wrote:
Roy and Innomen:

As (perhaps) the oldest members of the site, what brought you guys here? The biggest thing we lack is older members, so I see that as the largest untapped resource for DDO. If I want to know what a teenager thinks of the government, I can get that here, but I wish there were more older folks to round out these discussions.

You want the truth of why older people wouldn't like it here?

all the kids.

Does that include me?

Obviously Roy and I are different in how we see you guys. I've learned more from some of the members here who are more than half my age, than professors who are older than I am. However, if you think that the average adult will willingly engage in a discussion steeped in logical fallacies, it aint gonna happen.

I apologize if I have disappointed you, Innomen. Have I excaberated the discussion that is "steeped in logical fallacies"?
"Homo sum, humani nihil a me alienum puto." --Terence

"I believe that the mind can be permanently profaned by the habit of attending to trivial things, so that all our thoughts shall be tinged with triviality."--Thoreau
jat93
Posts: 1,440
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7/16/2011 2:35:12 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 7/16/2011 2:25:28 PM, innomen wrote:
At 7/16/2011 2:13:55 PM, Man-is-good wrote:
At 7/16/2011 1:54:53 PM, innomen wrote:
At 7/16/2011 1:37:26 PM, Lasagna wrote:
Roy and Innomen:

As (perhaps) the oldest members of the site, what brought you guys here? The biggest thing we lack is older members, so I see that as the largest untapped resource for DDO. If I want to know what a teenager thinks of the government, I can get that here, but I wish there were more older folks to round out these discussions.

You want the truth of why older people wouldn't like it here?

all the kids.

Does that include me?

Obviously Roy and I are different in how we see you guys. I've learned more from some of the members here who are more than half my age, than professors who are older than I am. However, if you think that the average adult will willingly engage in a discussion steeped in logical fallacies, it aint gonna happen.

You know as well as anyone that some of the smartest and most active members on this site are close to my age (turning 18 in a month) or within a 5 year range. Sometimes I'm amazed at the young age of some of the most brilliant people on this site. While those members certainly don't speak for every kid here, any kid who is going to sign up for this site and actually stick around will certainly be smarter than the average kid his age.

On the contrary, I think most kids on this site (even outside of the more experienced members I referred to before) are smarter than the average adult. Most "average adults" in the world probably can't identify what a logical fallacy is, or name one if they had to. So I think you're underestimating the youth here and overestimating the average adult.
innomen
Posts: 10,052
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7/16/2011 2:35:19 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 7/16/2011 2:28:22 PM, Man-is-good wrote:
At 7/16/2011 2:25:28 PM, innomen wrote:
At 7/16/2011 2:13:55 PM, Man-is-good wrote:
At 7/16/2011 1:54:53 PM, innomen wrote:
At 7/16/2011 1:37:26 PM, Lasagna wrote:
Roy and Innomen:

As (perhaps) the oldest members of the site, what brought you guys here? The biggest thing we lack is older members, so I see that as the largest untapped resource for DDO. If I want to know what a teenager thinks of the government, I can get that here, but I wish there were more older folks to round out these discussions.

You want the truth of why older people wouldn't like it here?

all the kids.

Does that include me?

Obviously Roy and I are different in how we see you guys. I've learned more from some of the members here who are more than half my age, than professors who are older than I am. However, if you think that the average adult will willingly engage in a discussion steeped in logical fallacies, it aint gonna happen.

I apologize if I have disappointed you, Innomen. Have I excaberated the discussion that is "steeped in logical fallacies"?

No no no. This site is more suited for those who enjoy formal debate, and older people generally aren't interested in composing an argument along the confines of logic. Like Roy said, older people tend to rely more on experience than research driven argumentation.

There's also a certain social aspect of the site that i enjoy, but many other adults would be less suited for. There is a crudeness that exists here, but it's really truth based, but would be distasteful for most people my age.
PARADIGM_L0ST
Posts: 6,958
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7/16/2011 2:48:08 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
I think you're underestimating the youth here and overestimating the average adult.:

Innomen, of all people, is not doing that. I think you just misunderstood him. Innomen routinely lauds the young luminaries on the forum, and even browbeats some the older people who make snide remarks to them on account of their young age.

He's referring to the people who typically act adolescent, whether they literally are or not.
"Have you ever considered suicide? If not, please do." -- Mouthwash (to Inferno)
jat93
Posts: 1,440
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7/16/2011 2:49:43 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 7/16/2011 2:48:08 PM, PARADIGM_L0ST wrote:
I think you're underestimating the youth here and overestimating the average adult.:

Innomen, of all people, is not doing that. I think you just misunderstood him. Innomen routinely lauds the young luminaries on the forum, and even browbeats some the older people who make snide remarks to them on account of their young age.

He's referring to the people who typically act adolescent, whether they literally are or not.

Oh. Okay. Twas indeed a misunderstanding. I still think he might have been downplaying how stupid the average adult (esp in America) is.
PARADIGM_L0ST
Posts: 6,958
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7/16/2011 2:54:14 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
I still think he might have been downplaying how stupid the average adult (esp in America) is.:

Quite possibly, though most morons can't hang for very long in here. It's just too intellectually challenging for them. There are a few though that are literally too stupid to realize it. Interrogator comes to mind :)
"Have you ever considered suicide? If not, please do." -- Mouthwash (to Inferno)
Man-is-good
Posts: 6,871
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7/16/2011 2:57:05 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 7/16/2011 2:54:14 PM, PARADIGM_L0ST wrote:
I still think he might have been downplaying how stupid the average adult (esp in America) is.:

Quite possibly, though most morons can't hang for very long in here. It's just too intellectually challenging for them. There are a few though that are literally too stupid to realize it. Interrogator comes to mind :)

Interrogator at least was a funny guy, a man who loved to talk about love, intercourse, racism, and so on. He contributed greatly to the forums, though his debating skills were poor and his style of writing mediocre...
"Homo sum, humani nihil a me alienum puto." --Terence

"I believe that the mind can be permanently profaned by the habit of attending to trivial things, so that all our thoughts shall be tinged with triviality."--Thoreau
Man-is-good
Posts: 6,871
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7/16/2011 3:11:30 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 7/16/2011 3:00:33 PM, jat93 wrote:
At 7/16/2011 2:57:05 PM, Man-is-good wrote:
He contributed greatly to the forums

....No.

Umm....That was meant for a compliment, but honestly, all that Interrogator did was post useless forums in different topics.
"Homo sum, humani nihil a me alienum puto." --Terence

"I believe that the mind can be permanently profaned by the habit of attending to trivial things, so that all our thoughts shall be tinged with triviality."--Thoreau
RoyLatham
Posts: 4,488
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7/16/2011 3:54:25 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
I like the kids on the site because they generally have a flexibility of thought that many older people don't have. I debate older leftists in a different forum, and they get deeply offended when their premises are questioned, and they often clam up in a dark funk when asked for reasons. Kids will engage and speak their minds. The young people here are not typical; they are very, very smart.

I learn from the debates here. Debates make me do homework and examine the fundamental logic of arguments. To study the science of argumentation, I need to engage in it. Wildly unreasonable positions are not so easy to defeat as t might seem, because the people who make them will not agree to anything, and you always have to proceed from some common ground.

Still, older people who take debate seriously don't like the personal attacks and attempts at "clever" debate techniques, like silly semantic arguments. I don't think that can be cured, but maybe it can be kept in check to some degree through moderators.
darkkermit
Posts: 11,204
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7/18/2011 3:10:12 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 7/16/2011 3:54:25 PM, RoyLatham wrote:
I like the kids on the site because they generally have a flexibility of thought that many older people don't have. I debate older leftists in a different forum, and they get deeply offended when their premises are questioned, and they often clam up in a dark funk when asked for reasons. Kids will engage and speak their minds. The young people here are not typical; they are very, very smart.

I learn from the debates here. Debates make me do homework and examine the fundamental logic of arguments. To study the science of argumentation, I need to engage in it. Wildly unreasonable positions are not so easy to defeat as t might seem, because the people who make them will not agree to anything, and you always have to proceed from some common ground.

Still, older people who take debate seriously don't like the personal attacks and attempts at "clever" debate techniques, like silly semantic arguments. I don't think that can be cured, but maybe it can be kept in check to some degree through moderators.

It's nearly impossible to change someone's political views the older one gets. Sure its possible, but it takes a lot more effort. Mainly because the longer one has an ideology the more difficult and painful it becomes for one to give it up the longer one hold's on to it. Being wrong is not a concept one can easily grasp. It's easier to go into denial and display cognitive biases to justify one's belief system.

I'm trying to be smarter about it but I realize in the real world, it's not a good idea to try to pick apart one's political view. Still sometimes its hard to bite ones tongue. My parents can be the worst since they tend to be in your face liberals.
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innomen
Posts: 10,052
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7/18/2011 3:31:39 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 7/18/2011 3:10:12 AM, darkkermit wrote:
At 7/16/2011 3:54:25 PM, RoyLatham wrote:
I like the kids on the site because they generally have a flexibility of thought that many older people don't have. I debate older leftists in a different forum, and they get deeply offended when their premises are questioned, and they often clam up in a dark funk when asked for reasons. Kids will engage and speak their minds. The young people here are not typical; they are very, very smart.

I learn from the debates here. Debates make me do homework and examine the fundamental logic of arguments. To study the science of argumentation, I need to engage in it. Wildly unreasonable positions are not so easy to defeat as t might seem, because the people who make them will not agree to anything, and you always have to proceed from some common ground.

Still, older people who take debate seriously don't like the personal attacks and attempts at "clever" debate techniques, like silly semantic arguments. I don't think that can be cured, but maybe it can be kept in check to some degree through moderators.

It's nearly impossible to change someone's political views the older one gets. Sure its possible, but it takes a lot more effort. Mainly because the longer one has an ideology the more difficult and painful it becomes for one to give it up the longer one hold's on to it. Being wrong is not a concept one can easily grasp. It's easier to go into denial and display cognitive biases to justify one's belief system.

I'm trying to be smarter about it but I realize in the real world, it's not a good idea to try to pick apart one's political view. Still sometimes its hard to bite ones tongue. My parents can be the worst since they tend to be in your face liberals.

I think at you get to a certain point you begin to reinforce their ideology, and it often gets more entrenched. They tend to have friends with similar outlooks and that further solidifies their beliefs. Also life begins to take on different priorities and meanings so the required time needed to put into a well structured, and formalized debate is just not going to happen.

One of the most valuable lessons from this site is that all arguments should have a reasonable expectation of justification with fact, or something along those lines. Most people in the world prefer just rhetoric. That's not necessarily an age thing, but it does seem to be quite prevalent among older people.