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DDO gets ELO

Ore_Ele
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8/2/2011 10:16:02 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
Well, not exactly yet.

As of now, DDO is not directly getting ELO implimented into it. However, Juggle has provided us with a spread sheet of all debates (ever, and there's a frickin lot of them) and we can run those debates through an ELO program.

If all goes well, the ELO numbers could be available in the next 20 minutes (takes awhile to compile all this).

Anyway, for the particular ELO numbers that we used, we start at 2,000 and have a floor at 1,000 (a floor is required because ELO freaks out if someone's score gets close to zero, or negative).
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
Ore_Ele
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8/2/2011 12:34:47 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
There are two different formulas that we can use.

One is more aggresive against newb sniping, though focuses more on punishing those that newb snipe and fail.

The other focuses on not rewarding newb sniping.

Here are examples of the two and how they would effect the same senerio.

Lets say that someone that is pretty good accepts a newb's challenge and wins. In option A, that person may get 25 - 30 points for the win, while in option B, they may only get 10 - 15 points for the win. But lets say they lose. In option A, if they lose, they can lose 500 - 600 points, but in option B, they only lose 200 - 250.

As you can see, both put it as that if you lose against someone rated lower than you, you lose more points than if would have won. But Option A puts more emphasis on exagerating the cost of losing, while Option B puts more on minimizing the benefit of winning.

Both formulas act the same when you debate someone in your general skill level.

What do the members of DDO think would be a better formula in principle?
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Rockylightning
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8/2/2011 1:11:39 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Just because they're new doesnt mean they're bad. Option B.

You never know when some kickass debater makes an account and wins. Would you be penalized for "noob sniping"?

What if a noob challenges you?
Ore_Ele
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8/2/2011 1:16:42 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/2/2011 1:12:45 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
ELO?

(nac)

ELO is a ranking system (to replace or go along side the current leader board) that judges you based on who you win and lose against, not just the wins and loses.

So if you get 10 wins and 10 loses against a bunch of people that have poor debating records, you shouldn't be graded the same as someone that goes 10 and 10 and only debates people that appear in the top 30 (first page of the leader board).

Though, it is technically Elo, not ELO. I thought it was an acrinym, but it is some guy's last name.
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Ore_Ele
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8/2/2011 1:33:25 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
in a PM, someone brought up the concern for "sleeper newbs," or new members that are good debaters and just new to DDO. In their cases, they shouldn't hurt experienced members too much.

That concern points to going for option B.
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OMGJustinBieber
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8/2/2011 1:34:53 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/2/2011 1:33:25 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
in a PM, someone brought up the concern for "sleeper newbs," or new members that are good debaters and just new to DDO. In their cases, they shouldn't hurt experienced members too much.

That concern points to going for option B.

We should get this instated ASAP, I think it could actually boost debates on the site now that people have something new to work towards.
Ore_Ele
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8/2/2011 1:38:14 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Well, we are moving as quickly as we can. This is (IMO) the biggest improvement to DDO that has been lead entirely by members.
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Ore_Ele
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8/2/2011 1:40:14 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/2/2011 1:36:13 PM, darkkermit wrote:
Where is it right now. You said it would be done in 20 minutes 3 hours ago :p.

It's done (both option A and B). I just don't want people to be for it because they get a better spot on the leader board, or against it because they have a lower spot.
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darkkermit
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8/2/2011 1:40:23 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/2/2011 1:38:14 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
Well, we are moving as quickly as we can. This is (IMO) the biggest improvement to DDO that has been lead entirely by members.

Sorry I sounded demanding :p. I get very impatient.
Thank you though.
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Ore_Ele
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8/2/2011 1:44:00 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/2/2011 1:40:23 PM, darkkermit wrote:
At 8/2/2011 1:38:14 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
Well, we are moving as quickly as we can. This is (IMO) the biggest improvement to DDO that has been lead entirely by members.

Sorry I sounded demanding :p. I get very impatient.
Thank you though.

It's okay, I've been very anxious about this too.
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Ore_Ele
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8/2/2011 1:54:26 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/2/2011 1:45:14 PM, OMGJustinBieber wrote:
At least in chess the ratings start at 1200 for everyone. When will it be up on the site?

I'm not sure when it will be up. I'm getting a lot of people that want to know how it will change their position. I don't want people to be for it just because they get higher on the leader board, or against just because they are lower.

But then, I've never been a goods salesman.
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Danielle
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8/2/2011 2:11:45 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
I don't think any ranking system is a good idea in the first place. One's profile can keep track of their wins and losses, but having a list of "top debaters" seems completely unnecessary. What added benefit does it actually bring to the SITE rather than people's ego?

I don't think I deserved to lose a great majority of the debates that I've "lost" as most were v-bombed. If a new ranking system goes into place with all of these efforts to eliminate v-bombing, then should I start an entirely new account? Because I'm pretty sure if I do that, there's a good chance I (and many others) can easily go undefeated. I don't think I care anywhere near enough about my win percentage to do that, but for those who do, I don't see why every one of us wouldn't just create a new account to rectify past voting injustices or whatever.
President of DDO
Ore_Ele
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8/2/2011 2:19:08 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/2/2011 2:11:45 PM, Danielle wrote:
I don't think any ranking system is a good idea in the first place. One's profile can keep track of their wins and losses, but having a list of "top debaters" seems completely unnecessary. What added benefit does it actually bring to the SITE rather than people's ego?

I don't think I deserved to lose a great majority of the debates that I've "lost" as most were v-bombed. If a new ranking system goes into place with all of these efforts to eliminate v-bombing, then should I start an entirely new account? Because I'm pretty sure if I do that, there's a good chance I (and many others) can easily go undefeated. I don't think I care anywhere near enough about my win percentage to do that, but for those who do, I don't see why every one of us wouldn't just create a new account to rectify past voting injustices or whatever.

Having a leader board is just for people's egos. Some people will take it negatively and some people will take it positively. The negatives will look at it as an ego filled motivation to improve their scores through vote bombing, fake accounts, and whatnot (though even without a leader board, they are likely to do much of that). The positives will look at is as personal motivation to do better. To try to emulate what the good debaters are doing, learn from them and improve.

To say that we shouldn't have learder boards is like saying we shouldn't have homerun leader boards in baseball, or ERA leader boards, or touchdown leaders in football, or rushing yards, or anything else.

Competition can, every now and again, be okay.
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Danielle
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8/2/2011 2:21:23 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
So what's my incentive to not just create a new account and start from scratch? Just wondering cuz I didn't read the specifics about how the "leaders" will be compiled.

And for the record I still think it's a bunch of bs and just an incentive to v-bomb but whatevs :)
President of DDO
BlackVoid
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8/2/2011 2:23:25 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
The leaderboard also encourages long term commitments to the site. Since its just a measurement of how many wins you have, anyone can get towards the top if they stay here long enough. While that certainly is flawed, it does encourage people to stay here for the long run if they want to get on, which ultimately is a good thing.
000ike
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8/2/2011 2:27:41 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
I disagree with Danielle, we cannot withhold the addition of a ranking system just because a few conceited individuals may use it to enlarge their egos or become more arrogant. The benefits of ranking are, as mentioned previously, that it sets goals for those at the bottom, and lets those at the top get an idea of what kind of debate their getting into.

If I have any concerns with Elo, it would be that the new members should not be incapacitated from the beginning. On chess.com a high chess rating is 2000, a low one is 700, so the rating they start every member off with is 1200. When members first join, their first games are worth A LOT of points. This is done so that skilled chess players who are new to the website can get to their accurate rank faster. If they're skilled they get up to about 50-100 points per game for the first few games or lose up to 50-100 points if they lose their first games. When they're acquainted with the website, each game is worth maximum 15 points. I think something like that should be done here.
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
Danielle
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8/2/2011 2:29:12 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/2/2011 2:23:25 PM, BlackVoid wrote:
The leaderboard also encourages long term commitments to the site. Since its just a measurement of how many wins you have, anyone can get towards the top if they stay here long enough. While that certainly is flawed, it does encourage people to stay here for the long run if they want to get on, which ultimately is a good thing.

Someone joining today under that system would have to do 300+ debates to get to the top. Aside from spinko (I don't remember his other names) who did like 50 debates a month, most people have a life... that would take a really long time to do (it took me over 3 years). Most people would get bored with DDO far before that could happen. Plus if they even decided to stick it out for 3 years, if I kept going at that rate then I would be at 600 when they were at 300. Anyway, I didn't read the specifics from the OP (tl;dr) so I'm just waiting for an answer from OreEle cuz I'm lazy. My question was would it beneficial for people to create new accounts and start from scratch under the new system? Cuz a quick glance at the 33 debates I've "lost" will show you that I probably shouldn't have lost any of them, yet I'm stuck with those verdicts due to the voting period being over. If I started a new account I think myself and many others could easily go undefeated now that we have greater measures against v-bombing.
President of DDO
Ore_Ele
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8/2/2011 2:29:55 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/2/2011 2:21:23 PM, Danielle wrote:
So what's my incentive to not just create a new account and start from scratch? Just wondering cuz I didn't read the specifics about how the "leaders" will be compiled.

And for the record I still think it's a bunch of bs and just an incentive to v-bomb but whatevs :)

Well, starting over will lower your score, as your score is not determined on your win%.

For example, if you were to create a new account and only debated new members (with 2000 points), you would have to go 78 - 0 just to get back to the top 10. And if instead of creating a new account and going 78 - 0, you can just add 78 wins to your current account.

There is no way that creating a new account is helpful, unless you lost all your debates are are under the starting 2,000 points.

Also, V-bombing will be harder, as v-bombing newbs that are less likely to report it will not generate as much change as under the current system. And votebombing experienced members as far more likely to get reported.
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Danielle
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8/2/2011 2:32:34 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/2/2011 2:27:41 PM, 000ike wrote:
I disagree with Danielle, we cannot withhold the addition of a ranking system just because a few conceited individuals may use it to enlarge their egos or become more arrogant. The benefits of ranking are, as mentioned previously, that it sets goals for those at the bottom, and lets those at the top get an idea of what kind of debate their getting into.

You can disagree with me, but I don't think being at the top of the leader board is a good reason to set a goal of becoming a better debater. If that's your motivation, then you're admitting that being at the top just for that accomplishment is kind of conceited and arrogant... so you've already contradicted the first part of your statement. But whatever - I know that being at the top is SO IMPORTANT to a lot of people, so I accept that the leader board will exist. I'm just expressing my sentiments about it.
President of DDO
Danielle
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8/2/2011 2:33:49 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/2/2011 2:29:55 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
There is no way that creating a new account is helpful, unless you lost all your debates are are under the starting 2,000 points.

K, thx.
President of DDO
Ore_Ele
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8/2/2011 2:35:49 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/2/2011 2:32:34 PM, Danielle wrote:
At 8/2/2011 2:27:41 PM, 000ike wrote:
I disagree with Danielle, we cannot withhold the addition of a ranking system just because a few conceited individuals may use it to enlarge their egos or become more arrogant. The benefits of ranking are, as mentioned previously, that it sets goals for those at the bottom, and lets those at the top get an idea of what kind of debate their getting into.

You can disagree with me, but I don't think being at the top of the leader board is a good reason to set a goal of becoming a better debater. If that's your motivation, then you're admitting that being at the top just for that accomplishment is kind of conceited and arrogant... so you've already contradicted the first part of your statement. But whatever - I know that being at the top is SO IMPORTANT to a lot of people, so I accept that the leader board will exist. I'm just expressing my sentiments about it.

Is it so wrong to want to be #1? Would you tell a child that is playing tee-ball that his dreams of being the best baseball player ever are arrogant and conceited? People naturally want to be good at what they enjoy, and part of being good is having as close to an objective measure of good as possible (100% objective is never really possible, but you can try to get close).
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Ore_Ele
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8/2/2011 3:07:18 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Anyway, if anyone would like to know where they stand in the ELO system, please PM me.
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Logic_on_rails
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8/2/2011 4:06:57 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
1 point, being a chess player. While it's obviously harder to do debates than play chess games, in chess they normally have larger swings on the first few games to better learn your skill. As games go by the swings get smaller until normal. I don't know how large the Elo range would be for this website, but to be fair, jumping 100 points in chess takes about 12 wins against players of your level or 7 at levels way above you, with no losses in between. Jumping 100 is really tough, so getting rid of 300 points in 1 go sounds really, really harsh, unless your top ratings are really high (above 3000 for starters) . This needs to be thought of to counteract massive volatility.
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Ore_Ele
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8/2/2011 4:32:42 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
The top debaters are just over 8,000 (only 2 in that range).

This is because so many people come in, do 1 or 2 debates, then leave after those loses. Of the 5,727 members that have actually done a debate, only 1,136 have done more than 5 debates (just 19.84%). Also, unlike chess, any new member can come and challenge a highly experienced member (as most debates that the experienced members do is against new members), so they often drop off a few points that gets added to the experienced member's coffers, before leaving, and someone else comes along and repeats.

True, that in many cases, a single win against someone of equal points as you can propell you up a good number of places (for example, if PoeJoe came back and won a single debate against Sherlockmethod, PoeJoe would jump 10 places, though if he only faced some new member, he'd only go up 4).

But the same is true in Chess, mostly. If you have 5,700 spread over a 1,100 point range, you'll have 5 people per point, so going up only a few points will make a big difference. This is not much different, except that the point spread is further (instead of over 1,100 point range, it is over a 7,400 point range). But the number is arbitrary, it's the position compared to others that actually has any meaning.
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Ore_Ele
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8/2/2011 5:31:58 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/2/2011 5:29:27 PM, FREEDO wrote:
So...where are these numbers you mentioned would arrive?

PM me and I can let you know.

There are 5,725 members that have debates, so I have scores for 5,725 different people. That's not something I can post the entire thing. I'm thinking of how to display the amount of info in something that is more readable for members.

Right now I'm finishing up buckets.
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