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# DDO gets ELO

 Posts: 25,980 Add as FriendChallenge to a DebateSend a Message 8/2/2011 10:16:02 AMPosted: 6 years agoWell, not exactly yet.As of now, DDO is not directly getting ELO implimented into it. However, Juggle has provided us with a spread sheet of all debates (ever, and there's a frickin lot of them) and we can run those debates through an ELO program.If all goes well, the ELO numbers could be available in the next 20 minutes (takes awhile to compile all this).Anyway, for the particular ELO numbers that we used, we start at 2,000 and have a floor at 1,000 (a floor is required because ELO freaks out if someone's score gets close to zero, or negative)."Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
 Posts: 25,980 Add as FriendChallenge to a DebateSend a Message 8/2/2011 12:34:47 PMPosted: 6 years agoThere are two different formulas that we can use.One is more aggresive against newb sniping, though focuses more on punishing those that newb snipe and fail.The other focuses on not rewarding newb sniping.Here are examples of the two and how they would effect the same senerio.Lets say that someone that is pretty good accepts a newb's challenge and wins. In option A, that person may get 25 - 30 points for the win, while in option B, they may only get 10 - 15 points for the win. But lets say they lose. In option A, if they lose, they can lose 500 - 600 points, but in option B, they only lose 200 - 250.As you can see, both put it as that if you lose against someone rated lower than you, you lose more points than if would have won. But Option A puts more emphasis on exagerating the cost of losing, while Option B puts more on minimizing the benefit of winning.Both formulas act the same when you debate someone in your general skill level.What do the members of DDO think would be a better formula in principle?"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
 Posts: 2,862 Add as FriendChallenge to a DebateSend a Message 8/2/2011 1:11:39 PMPosted: 6 years agoJust because they're new doesnt mean they're bad. Option B.You never know when some kickass debater makes an account and wins. Would you be penalized for "noob sniping"?What if a noob challenges you?
 Posts: 25,980 Add as FriendChallenge to a DebateSend a Message 8/2/2011 1:16:42 PMPosted: 6 years agoAt 8/2/2011 1:12:45 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:ELO?(nac)ELO is a ranking system (to replace or go along side the current leader board) that judges you based on who you win and lose against, not just the wins and loses.So if you get 10 wins and 10 loses against a bunch of people that have poor debating records, you shouldn't be graded the same as someone that goes 10 and 10 and only debates people that appear in the top 30 (first page of the leader board).Though, it is technically Elo, not ELO. I thought it was an acrinym, but it is some guy's last name."Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
 Posts: 3,484 Add as FriendChallenge to a DebateSend a Message 8/2/2011 1:22:40 PMPosted: 6 years agoI prefer Option B.
 Posts: 25,980 Add as FriendChallenge to a DebateSend a Message 8/2/2011 1:33:25 PMPosted: 6 years agoin a PM, someone brought up the concern for "sleeper newbs," or new members that are good debaters and just new to DDO. In their cases, they shouldn't hurt experienced members too much.That concern points to going for option B."Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
 Posts: 3,484 Add as FriendChallenge to a DebateSend a Message 8/2/2011 1:34:53 PMPosted: 6 years agoAt 8/2/2011 1:33:25 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:in a PM, someone brought up the concern for "sleeper newbs," or new members that are good debaters and just new to DDO. In their cases, they shouldn't hurt experienced members too much.That concern points to going for option B.We should get this instated ASAP, I think it could actually boost debates on the site now that people have something new to work towards.
 Posts: 11,204 Add as FriendChallenge to a DebateSend a Message 8/2/2011 1:36:13 PMPosted: 6 years agoWhere is it right now. You said it would be done in 20 minutes 3 hours ago :p.Open borders debate: http://www.debate.org...
 Posts: 25,980 Add as FriendChallenge to a DebateSend a Message 8/2/2011 1:38:14 PMPosted: 6 years agoWell, we are moving as quickly as we can. This is (IMO) the biggest improvement to DDO that has been lead entirely by members."Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
 Posts: 25,980 Add as FriendChallenge to a DebateSend a Message 8/2/2011 1:40:14 PMPosted: 6 years agoAt 8/2/2011 1:36:13 PM, darkkermit wrote:Where is it right now. You said it would be done in 20 minutes 3 hours ago :p.It's done (both option A and B). I just don't want people to be for it because they get a better spot on the leader board, or against it because they have a lower spot."Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
 Posts: 11,204 Add as FriendChallenge to a DebateSend a Message 8/2/2011 1:40:23 PMPosted: 6 years agoAt 8/2/2011 1:38:14 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:Well, we are moving as quickly as we can. This is (IMO) the biggest improvement to DDO that has been lead entirely by members.Sorry I sounded demanding :p. I get very impatient.Thank you though.Open borders debate: http://www.debate.org...
 Posts: 25,980 Add as FriendChallenge to a DebateSend a Message 8/2/2011 1:44:00 PMPosted: 6 years agoAt 8/2/2011 1:40:23 PM, darkkermit wrote:At 8/2/2011 1:38:14 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:Well, we are moving as quickly as we can. This is (IMO) the biggest improvement to DDO that has been lead entirely by members.Sorry I sounded demanding :p. I get very impatient.Thank you though.It's okay, I've been very anxious about this too."Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
 Posts: 3,484 Add as FriendChallenge to a DebateSend a Message 8/2/2011 1:45:14 PMPosted: 6 years agoAt least in chess the ratings start at 1200 for everyone. When will it be up on the site?
 Posts: 25,980 Add as FriendChallenge to a DebateSend a Message 8/2/2011 1:54:26 PMPosted: 6 years agoAt 8/2/2011 1:45:14 PM, OMGJustinBieber wrote:At least in chess the ratings start at 1200 for everyone. When will it be up on the site?I'm not sure when it will be up. I'm getting a lot of people that want to know how it will change their position. I don't want people to be for it just because they get higher on the leader board, or against just because they are lower.But then, I've never been a goods salesman."Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
 Posts: 26,631 Add as FriendChallenge to a DebateSend a Message 8/2/2011 2:11:45 PMPosted: 6 years agoI don't think any ranking system is a good idea in the first place. One's profile can keep track of their wins and losses, but having a list of "top debaters" seems completely unnecessary. What added benefit does it actually bring to the SITE rather than people's ego?I don't think I deserved to lose a great majority of the debates that I've "lost" as most were v-bombed. If a new ranking system goes into place with all of these efforts to eliminate v-bombing, then should I start an entirely new account? Because I'm pretty sure if I do that, there's a good chance I (and many others) can easily go undefeated. I don't think I care anywhere near enough about my win percentage to do that, but for those who do, I don't see why every one of us wouldn't just create a new account to rectify past voting injustices or whatever.
 Posts: 25,980 Add as FriendChallenge to a DebateSend a Message 8/2/2011 2:19:08 PMPosted: 6 years agoAt 8/2/2011 2:11:45 PM, Danielle wrote:I don't think any ranking system is a good idea in the first place. One's profile can keep track of their wins and losses, but having a list of "top debaters" seems completely unnecessary. What added benefit does it actually bring to the SITE rather than people's ego?I don't think I deserved to lose a great majority of the debates that I've "lost" as most were v-bombed. If a new ranking system goes into place with all of these efforts to eliminate v-bombing, then should I start an entirely new account? Because I'm pretty sure if I do that, there's a good chance I (and many others) can easily go undefeated. I don't think I care anywhere near enough about my win percentage to do that, but for those who do, I don't see why every one of us wouldn't just create a new account to rectify past voting injustices or whatever.Having a leader board is just for people's egos. Some people will take it negatively and some people will take it positively. The negatives will look at it as an ego filled motivation to improve their scores through vote bombing, fake accounts, and whatnot (though even without a leader board, they are likely to do much of that). The positives will look at is as personal motivation to do better. To try to emulate what the good debaters are doing, learn from them and improve.To say that we shouldn't have learder boards is like saying we shouldn't have homerun leader boards in baseball, or ERA leader boards, or touchdown leaders in football, or rushing yards, or anything else.Competition can, every now and again, be okay."Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
 Posts: 26,631 Add as FriendChallenge to a DebateSend a Message 8/2/2011 2:21:23 PMPosted: 6 years agoSo what's my incentive to not just create a new account and start from scratch? Just wondering cuz I didn't read the specifics about how the "leaders" will be compiled.And for the record I still think it's a bunch of bs and just an incentive to v-bomb but whatevs :)
 Posts: 9,170 Add as FriendChallenge to a DebateSend a Message 8/2/2011 2:23:25 PMPosted: 6 years agoThe leaderboard also encourages long term commitments to the site. Since its just a measurement of how many wins you have, anyone can get towards the top if they stay here long enough. While that certainly is flawed, it does encourage people to stay here for the long run if they want to get on, which ultimately is a good thing.
 Posts: 11,196 Add as FriendChallenge to a DebateSend a Message 8/2/2011 2:27:41 PMPosted: 6 years agoI disagree with Danielle, we cannot withhold the addition of a ranking system just because a few conceited individuals may use it to enlarge their egos or become more arrogant. The benefits of ranking are, as mentioned previously, that it sets goals for those at the bottom, and lets those at the top get an idea of what kind of debate their getting into.If I have any concerns with Elo, it would be that the new members should not be incapacitated from the beginning. On chess.com a high chess rating is 2000, a low one is 700, so the rating they start every member off with is 1200. When members first join, their first games are worth A LOT of points. This is done so that skilled chess players who are new to the website can get to their accurate rank faster. If they're skilled they get up to about 50-100 points per game for the first few games or lose up to 50-100 points if they lose their first games. When they're acquainted with the website, each game is worth maximum 15 points. I think something like that should be done here."A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
 Posts: 26,631 Add as FriendChallenge to a DebateSend a Message 8/2/2011 2:29:12 PMPosted: 6 years agoAt 8/2/2011 2:23:25 PM, BlackVoid wrote:The leaderboard also encourages long term commitments to the site. Since its just a measurement of how many wins you have, anyone can get towards the top if they stay here long enough. While that certainly is flawed, it does encourage people to stay here for the long run if they want to get on, which ultimately is a good thing.Someone joining today under that system would have to do 300+ debates to get to the top. Aside from spinko (I don't remember his other names) who did like 50 debates a month, most people have a life... that would take a really long time to do (it took me over 3 years). Most people would get bored with DDO far before that could happen. Plus if they even decided to stick it out for 3 years, if I kept going at that rate then I would be at 600 when they were at 300. Anyway, I didn't read the specifics from the OP (tl;dr) so I'm just waiting for an answer from OreEle cuz I'm lazy. My question was would it beneficial for people to create new accounts and start from scratch under the new system? Cuz a quick glance at the 33 debates I've "lost" will show you that I probably shouldn't have lost any of them, yet I'm stuck with those verdicts due to the voting period being over. If I started a new account I think myself and many others could easily go undefeated now that we have greater measures against v-bombing.