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New debate point presentation

Illegalcombatant
Posts: 4,008
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8/9/2011 12:10:22 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
So we have various categories to give points to, like spelling & grammer and conduct.

How about a new category for points "Presentation". Sometimes people complain about bad fonts, bad spacing etc etc.

What ye think, yay or nay ?
"Seems like another attempt to insert God into areas our knowledge has yet to penetrate. You figure God would be bigger than the gaps of our ignorance." Drafterman 19/5/12
BlackVoid
Posts: 9,170
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8/9/2011 12:14:59 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
Fonts and spacing would go in spelling/grammar imo. By definition they may be different, but S/G is more about the ability to write effectively in general.
Andromeda_Z
Posts: 4,151
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8/9/2011 12:15:32 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
I tend to lump presentation in with spelling and grammar anyway. I give that point to whoever conveyed his or her ideas more clearly. Instead, I'd suggest renaming "spelling and grammar" to "presentation", since it all has to do with communicating your ideas well.
F-16_Fighting_Falcon
Posts: 18,324
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8/9/2011 12:17:08 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/9/2011 12:10:22 AM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
So we have various categories to give points to, like spelling & grammer and conduct.

How about a new category for points "Presentation". Sometimes people complain about bad fonts, bad spacing etc etc.

What ye think, yay or nay ?

Yay, but I think it should be part of spelling and grammar. I think the category should be changed to "Spelling, Grammar and Presentation."

I think the category of "arguments" should be changed too in a different way. Instead of 3 points to one person or no points at all, we should be allowed to give 2 points to one person and 1 point to another if the arguments were very close but one side had very slightly better arguments.
Illegalcombatant
Posts: 4,008
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8/9/2011 12:25:17 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
Okey how I like the idea of presentation as a more general heading from which fonts spacing spelling grammer etc are all lumped in.

Also how about clarity of arguments being thrown in there too.
"Seems like another attempt to insert God into areas our knowledge has yet to penetrate. You figure God would be bigger than the gaps of our ignorance." Drafterman 19/5/12
BlackVoid
Posts: 9,170
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8/9/2011 1:31:21 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
Honestly I'm starting to support eliminating separate voting points all together and just have every vote cont as one point. I dislike certain votes counting more than others just because one person has a different interpretation of good and bad conduct.
F-16_Fighting_Falcon
Posts: 18,324
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8/9/2011 1:48:28 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/9/2011 1:31:21 AM, BlackVoid wrote:
Honestly I'm starting to support eliminating separate voting points all together and just have every vote cont as one point. I dislike certain votes counting more than others just because one person has a different interpretation of good and bad conduct.

I don't know. If a person strongly votes for Pro by giving him 6 points and another person weakly votes for Con giving him two points, don't you think Pro should win?
Double_R
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8/9/2011 1:52:06 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
I think presentation should be part of spelling and grammar and count for 2 points, while changing sources to 1 pt. I understand in theory why sources should be two points but in reality spelling and grammar including presentation, paragraph structure, etc... is almost as important as substance. After all what good is substance if you can not understand it?
Double_R
Posts: 4,886
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8/9/2011 1:55:46 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/9/2011 1:31:21 AM, BlackVoid wrote:
Honestly I'm starting to support eliminating separate voting points all together and just have every vote cont as one point. I dislike certain votes counting more than others just because one person has a different interpretation of good and bad conduct.

It sounds good but there would be a problem of having too many ties. I think DDO needs to push it's voting guidlines more so that all members are aware of what the proper voting criteria should be, rather then everybody assuming whatever they want.
BlackVoid
Posts: 9,170
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8/9/2011 2:01:20 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/9/2011 1:48:28 AM, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:
At 8/9/2011 1:31:21 AM, BlackVoid wrote:
Honestly I'm starting to support eliminating separate voting points all together and just have every vote cont as one point. I dislike certain votes counting more than others just because one person has a different interpretation of good and bad conduct.

I don't know. If a person strongly votes for Pro by giving him 6 points and another person weakly votes for Con giving him two points, don't you think Pro should win?

No, because one person thought Pro won and one person thought Pro lost.

I'll write a couple paragraphs on this tomorrow, but its 2:00 a night and I'm kind of tired right now :/
Puck
Posts: 6,457
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8/9/2011 2:06:49 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
Presentation is valid enough under spelling and grammar. It's tempting to penalise participants who use different fonts and sizes for each round through the spelling and grammar option.
RoyLatham
Posts: 4,488
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8/10/2011 12:40:08 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
I think presentation should be in the category with S&G .It might be helpful if the voting guidelines were embellished. It now just says "Which debater, on balance, took the time to insure their writing was easy to read with proper spelling, grammar, and punctuation?" http://www.debate.org... It might also include logical organization, avoiding slang or jargon, and a readable format.

It's difficult to separate S&G from Arguments. If the S&G is so poor that it interferes with understanding the arguments, then Arguments will be lost as well -- and that's fair. I'd pose the question of what a beautifully composed but vacuous argument is worth.
Illegalcombatant
Posts: 4,008
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8/11/2011 11:57:26 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
I propose we make Arguments into 4 points which include such things as, not only the content of the arguments, but how it was presented.
"Seems like another attempt to insert God into areas our knowledge has yet to penetrate. You figure God would be bigger than the gaps of our ignorance." Drafterman 19/5/12
Illegalcombatant
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8/11/2011 11:59:52 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/11/2011 11:57:26 PM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
I propose we make Arguments into 4 points which include such things as, not only the content of the arguments, but how it was presented.

Or a new category of "presentation of arguments" for 1 point.
"Seems like another attempt to insert God into areas our knowledge has yet to penetrate. You figure God would be bigger than the gaps of our ignorance." Drafterman 19/5/12
000ike
Posts: 11,196
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8/12/2011 12:31:13 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
What nonsense! I would be thoroughly pissed off if someone took off points just because they didn't like how I wrote my argument. Visual appeal has nothing to do with a debate. Someone once told me that my argument was annoying him because I capitalized certain words for emphasis. Only an incompetent voter would knock off points because of his own personal preferences. It would be a crime to add this as a criteria when voting.

Let people write as they wish. It is the content and the integrity of the argument that matters. The very idea of conforming my writing style to someone else's preferences is pissing me off already.

Therefore, a resounding NAY!
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
Illegalcombatant
Posts: 4,008
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8/12/2011 12:52:45 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/12/2011 12:31:13 AM, 000ike wrote:
What nonsense! I would be thoroughly pissed off if someone took off points just because they didn't like how I wrote my argument. Visual appeal has nothing to do with a debate. Someone once told me that my argument was annoying him because I capitalized certain words for emphasis. Only an incompetent voter would knock off points because of his own personal preferences. It would be a crime to add this as a criteria when voting.

Let people write as they wish. It is the content and the integrity of the argument that matters. The very idea of conforming my writing style to someone else's preferences is pissing me off already.

Therefore, a resounding NAY!

Its only 1 point.
"Seems like another attempt to insert God into areas our knowledge has yet to penetrate. You figure God would be bigger than the gaps of our ignorance." Drafterman 19/5/12
RoyLatham
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8/12/2011 1:54:50 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/12/2011 12:31:13 AM, 000ike wrote:
What nonsense! I would be thoroughly pissed off if someone took off points just because they didn't like how I wrote my argument. Visual appeal has nothing to do with a debate.

It's not about aesthetics, it's about communication. Something that can be figured out with effort from the reader is not as good at communicating ideas. The objective is to stay focused on the ideas by removing unnecessary obstacles.

It's not about aesthetics, it's about communication. Something that can be figured out with effort from the reader is not as good at communicating ideas. The objective is to stay focused on the ideas by removing unnecessary obstacles.

t's nt bout esthetics, t's bout cmmunication. Smething tht cn b fgured ut wth ffort frm th rader s nt s god t cmmunicating deas. Th bjective s t sty fcused n th deas b rmoving nnecessary bstacles.
Ore_Ele
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8/12/2011 2:55:23 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/12/2011 1:54:50 PM, RoyLatham wrote:
At 8/12/2011 12:31:13 AM, 000ike wrote:
What nonsense! I would be thoroughly pissed off if someone took off points just because they didn't like how I wrote my argument. Visual appeal has nothing to do with a debate.

It's not about aesthetics, it's about communication. Something that can be figured out with effort from the reader is not as good at communicating ideas. The objective is to stay focused on the ideas by removing unnecessary obstacles.

It's not about aesthetics, it's about communication. Something that can be figured out with effort from the reader is not as good at communicating ideas. The objective is to stay focused on the ideas by removing unnecessary obstacles.

t's nt bout esthetics, t's bout cmmunication. Smething tht cn b fgured ut wth ffort frm th rader s nt s god t cmmunicating deas. Th bjective s t sty fcused n th deas b rmoving nnecessary bstacles.

darn you, I was going to do that (but make it one big clump of a paragraph).
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
000ike
Posts: 11,196
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8/12/2011 3:33:34 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/12/2011 1:54:50 PM, RoyLatham wrote:

It's not about aesthetics, it's about communication. Something that can be figured out with effort from the reader is not as good at communicating ideas. The objective is to stay focused on the ideas by removing unnecessary obstacles.

t's nt bout esthetics, t's bout cmmunication. Smething tht cn b fgured ut wth ffort frm th rader s nt s god t cmmunicating deas. Th bjective s t sty fcused n th deas b rmoving nnecessary bstacles.

I get what you're saying but still no. People can be picky and obnoxious. If you so much as Underline one sentence to give it weight they will use this as a legitimate opportunity to takes points off. Your example was an exaggeration since I've never actually seen someone do that or anything like that on here.

This also opens the gate for subjectivity and personal inference when voting. Some people write their whole argument in a large font, and I personally don't like it, whereas someone else may not have a problem with it. What gives me the right to mark him off because of my own preferences? Absolutely nothing.

Furthermore, from what I have seen, there are a lot of irritable and easily annoyed people here. The slightest pattern in writing that occurs to their distaste could result in them tipping over a tied debate.

This idea should not come to fruition.
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
RoyLatham
Posts: 4,488
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8/12/2011 5:30:04 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/12/2011 3:33:34 PM, 000ike wrote:
I get what you're saying but still no. People can be picky and obnoxious. If you so much as Underline one sentence to give it weight they will use this as a legitimate opportunity to takes points off. Your example was an exaggeration since I've never actually seen someone do that or anything like that on here.

I've seen quite a few debates where S&G and formatting were so poor it got in the way of understanding the arguments. Of course it's subjective as to the point at which that happens, but who has better arguments, sources, and conduct is also subjective. You can't please everyone, but most people are satisfied with a reasonably good job of S&G. That category is most often judged a tie, I think.
bluesteel
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8/13/2011 12:06:01 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
@000like

Judges for high school debate are usually paid to judge. If someone is nice enough to read your entire debate and vote, it's definitely your job to make that as easy as possible for them, as far as formatting.

I still think arguments needs to be worth more or sources less. If one debater offers facts with sources and then the other wins with basic logic, the winner should win far more than 3/2 of all points.
You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into - Jonathan Swift (paraphrase)