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Suggestion: Anonymised mode

Thrasymachus
Posts: 29
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8/26/2011 8:22:24 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
It would be nice for a user-side or similar option to anonymize the debates, so you can blind yourself from any knowledge of who is debating whom (instead of Thrasymachus versus bloggs, just Pro versus Con without identifiers). There seems a pretty clear risk of bias if you know someone has debated you before, voted against/for you in the past etc. I doubt there is any watertight way around this, but at least voters acting with good intent can help themselves - I can't really not look at the header when I click on a link.
PARADIGM_L0ST
Posts: 6,958
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8/26/2011 9:03:01 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/26/2011 8:56:39 AM, nonentity wrote:
That might actually solve the vote-bombing problem.:

It might help to a degree, but some people vote for how they side on an issue without actually reading the debate.
"Have you ever considered suicide? If not, please do." -- Mouthwash (to Inferno)
nonentity
Posts: 5,008
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8/26/2011 9:14:24 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/26/2011 9:03:01 AM, PARADIGM_L0ST wrote:
At 8/26/2011 8:56:39 AM, nonentity wrote:
That might actually solve the vote-bombing problem.:

It might help to a degree, but some people vote for how they side on an issue without actually reading the debate.

True.
Ore_Ele
Posts: 25,980
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8/26/2011 9:28:10 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/26/2011 9:03:01 AM, PARADIGM_L0ST wrote:
At 8/26/2011 8:56:39 AM, nonentity wrote:
That might actually solve the vote-bombing problem.:

It might help to a degree, but some people vote for how they side on an issue without actually reading the debate.

Very true, but it will have an impact. I actually really like the idea, as an option (not a change).
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
Kinesis
Posts: 3,667
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8/26/2011 9:32:05 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
That is actually a really interesting, original (at least I haven't heard of it before) idea. I'd like to see the option available, but it would take significant nagging to have a chance of being implemented.
Ore_Ele
Posts: 25,980
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8/26/2011 9:34:41 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/26/2011 9:32:05 AM, Kinesis wrote:
That is actually a really interesting, original (at least I haven't heard of it before) idea. I'd like to see the option available, but it would take significant nagging to have a chance of being implemented.

It will have to get into the round 2 changes. Round 1 is already established and simply adding more things to it will only make Juggle drag their feet more. If we focus on getting round 1 done (meaning focus on getting Juggle to do it), we can then more to round 2.
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
Kinesis
Posts: 3,667
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8/26/2011 9:36:12 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/26/2011 9:34:41 AM, Ore_Ele wrote:
It will have to get into the round 2 changes. Round 1 is already established and simply adding more things to it will only make Juggle drag their feet more. If we focus on getting round 1 done (meaning focus on getting Juggle to do it), we can then more to round 2.

what exactly are the 'round 1' changes?
Cerebral_Narcissist
Posts: 10,806
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8/26/2011 9:38:41 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
That would be awesome, I have several debates I would have won under such a system.

I do my best to vote honourably, but obviously we are all fallible.
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
Ore_Ele
Posts: 25,980
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8/26/2011 9:40:16 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/26/2011 9:36:12 AM, Kinesis wrote:
At 8/26/2011 9:34:41 AM, Ore_Ele wrote:
It will have to get into the round 2 changes. Round 1 is already established and simply adding more things to it will only make Juggle drag their feet more. If we focus on getting round 1 done (meaning focus on getting Juggle to do it), we can then more to round 2.

what exactly are the 'round 1' changes?

New member auto-greet (when a new member joins, they get a PM automatically from the admin account welcoming them to the site and directing them to the "welcome new members" thread and "debate tutorial" thread).

Vote Counter (counts how often a member votes, like the post counter).

Vote and Post member history (so you can look up all posts and votes made by a member, much like you can look up their debate history).
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
Ore_Ele
Posts: 25,980
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8/26/2011 9:42:11 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
Juggle said, "Those seem to be fairly straightforward and simple to implement. Our goal is to try to get these out in the next two weeks, but that is also dependent on internal development priorities here so I will keep you posted."

So please note that there is no solid promise (take with as many grains of salt as you wish).

Because they want to start with straight forward and simple, ELO was cut. T.T
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
Kinesis
Posts: 3,667
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8/26/2011 9:43:01 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/26/2011 9:40:16 AM, Ore_Ele wrote:
New member auto-greet (when a new member joins, they get a PM automatically from the admin account welcoming them to the site and directing them to the "welcome new members" thread and "debate tutorial" thread).

Vote Counter (counts how often a member votes, like the post counter).

Vote and Post member history (so you can look up all posts and votes made by a member, much like you can look up their debate history).

Wow, sounds awesome. How's the campaign for those things going?
Ore_Ele
Posts: 25,980
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8/26/2011 9:46:54 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/26/2011 9:43:01 AM, Kinesis wrote:
At 8/26/2011 9:40:16 AM, Ore_Ele wrote:
New member auto-greet (when a new member joins, they get a PM automatically from the admin account welcoming them to the site and directing them to the "welcome new members" thread and "debate tutorial" thread).

Vote Counter (counts how often a member votes, like the post counter).

Vote and Post member history (so you can look up all posts and votes made by a member, much like you can look up their debate history).

Wow, sounds awesome. How's the campaign for those things going?

Well, ever since we convinced Sarah Palin that God wanted those things, she's been helping us and her bus tour has been nothing but benefitial to the cause (though I have to wear ear plugs for when she goes off on politics).
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
Kinesis
Posts: 3,667
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8/26/2011 9:50:20 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/26/2011 9:46:54 AM, Ore_Ele wrote:
Well, ever since we convinced Sarah Palin that God wanted those things, she's been helping us and her bus tour has been nothing but benefitial to the cause (though I have to wear ear plugs for when she goes off on politics).

Sounds cool. Do you think we could we convince Obama to invest a 'stimulus package' in the site to revitalise its debate quality repression?
Ore_Ele
Posts: 25,980
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8/26/2011 9:52:21 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/26/2011 9:47:19 AM, Kinesis wrote:
Wow, I didn't expect an actual timetable though. That's quite promising.

Well... we've had a time table before. I don't want to depress anyone, but I also don't want to give anyone un-realistic hopes.

Though the last time table, I believe, was broken because internal issues with Juggle (it was shortly after that when JuliaD left and Zach took over, I never did try to bring it up with Zach at the time, just dropped it and started working on ELO).

Hopefully we can get something, and maybe work our way up to ELO are larger changes.
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
Danielle
Posts: 21,330
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8/26/2011 10:02:35 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
I agree. It won't solve the problem of biased voting by any means, but it could help. I think it should at least be an option. However I do think that many debates get read specifically because they are advertised, either via the forums, people's signatures or request, so that might make the anonymity kind of problematic. I also think that sometimes people read debates specifically because of who is debating. We could always try it and see how it works out...? Although I do think it's true that the #1 problem is people just voting in accordance with their own views, rather than what was presented in the debate. We can't really fix that.
President of DDO
Ore_Ele
Posts: 25,980
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8/26/2011 10:05:15 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/26/2011 10:02:35 AM, Danielle wrote:
I agree. It won't solve the problem of biased voting by any means, but it could help. I think it should at least be an option. However I do think that many debates get read specifically because they are advertised, either via the forums, people's signatures or request, so that might make the anonymity kind of problematic. I also think that sometimes people read debates specifically because of who is debating. We could always try it and see how it works out...? Although I do think it's true that the #1 problem is people just voting in accordance with their own views, rather than what was presented in the debate. We can't really fix that.

One of the R2 improvements that will be suggested to Juggle after R1 goes through (assuming it does) will help address the advertising of debates.
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
medic0506
Posts: 13,450
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8/26/2011 10:30:06 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/26/2011 8:22:24 AM, Thrasymachus wrote:
It would be nice for a user-side or similar option to anonymize the debates, so you can blind yourself from any knowledge of who is debating whom (instead of Thrasymachus versus bloggs, just Pro versus Con without identifiers). There seems a pretty clear risk of bias if you know someone has debated you before, voted against/for you in the past etc. I doubt there is any watertight way around this, but at least voters acting with good intent can help themselves - I can't really not look at the header when I click on a link.

This is actually a good idea. Anything we can do to minimize vote bombing is a help, and this doesn't seem like it would be difficult to implement. I like it.
Indophile
Posts: 1,414
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8/26/2011 10:30:09 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/26/2011 10:02:35 AM, Danielle wrote:
I agree. It won't solve the problem of biased voting by any means, but it could help. I think it should at least be an option. However I do think that many debates get read specifically because they are advertised, either via the forums, people's signatures or request, so that might make the anonymity kind of problematic. I also think that sometimes people read debates specifically because of who is debating. We could always try it and see how it works out...? Although I do think it's true that the #1 problem is people just voting in accordance with their own views, rather than what was presented in the debate. We can't really fix that.

I agree with you in that I read debates based on who is doing them, mostly. This anonymous mode, if made mandatory, would take away from that.

I think there should be the option of going anonymous.
You will say that I don't really know you
And it will be true.
randolph7
Posts: 307
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8/26/2011 10:32:57 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
What's the purpose of having a vote counter? I'd like to encourage voting but how would that get accomplished by another stat on the profile?
"ahh but i have indeed found the burdon of truth the, muffs have found it. oh mothy dear dear mothy"
randolph7
Posts: 307
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8/26/2011 10:35:00 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/26/2011 10:30:09 AM, Indophile wrote:
At 8/26/2011 10:02:35 AM, Danielle wrote:
I agree. It won't solve the problem of biased voting by any means, but it could help. I think it should at least be an option. However I do think that many debates get read specifically because they are advertised, either via the forums, people's signatures or request, so that might make the anonymity kind of problematic. I also think that sometimes people read debates specifically because of who is debating. We could always try it and see how it works out...? Although I do think it's true that the #1 problem is people just voting in accordance with their own views, rather than what was presented in the debate. We can't really fix that.

I agree with you in that I read debates based on who is doing them, mostly. This anonymous mode, if made mandatory, would take away from that.

I think there should be the option of going anonymous.

They could probably still link the debate to the member's profile. So if you wanted to see all ore_ele's debates it would take you there. But if you did a search on a topic or from the home page you wouldn't know who was debating. At least, I assume that's how it'd be implemented.
"ahh but i have indeed found the burdon of truth the, muffs have found it. oh mothy dear dear mothy"
Ore_Ele
Posts: 25,980
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8/26/2011 10:37:28 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/26/2011 10:32:57 AM, randolph7 wrote:
What's the purpose of having a vote counter? I'd like to encourage voting but how would that get accomplished by another stat on the profile?

Some people are motivated by seeing their "success" or "progress."
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
randolph7
Posts: 307
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8/26/2011 10:42:17 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/26/2011 10:37:28 AM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 8/26/2011 10:32:57 AM, randolph7 wrote:
What's the purpose of having a vote counter? I'd like to encourage voting but how would that get accomplished by another stat on the profile?

Some people are motivated by seeing their "success" or "progress."

True, but I think it would be more incentive to make someone have 3 votes before the can take another debate as either as Instigator or not. Kind of like the 3 debate rule before you can vote.
"ahh but i have indeed found the burdon of truth the, muffs have found it. oh mothy dear dear mothy"
randolph7
Posts: 307
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8/26/2011 10:42:57 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
60th post! Wooo hooo
"ahh but i have indeed found the burdon of truth the, muffs have found it. oh mothy dear dear mothy"
BennyW
Posts: 698
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8/26/2011 10:56:32 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/26/2011 8:22:24 AM, Thrasymachus wrote:
It would be nice for a user-side or similar option to anonymize the debates, so you can blind yourself from any knowledge of who is debating whom (instead of Thrasymachus versus bloggs, just Pro versus Con without identifiers). There seems a pretty clear risk of bias if you know someone has debated you before, voted against/for you in the past etc. I doubt there is any watertight way around this, but at least voters acting with good intent can help themselves - I can't really not look at the header when I click on a link.
This is a good idea, maybe we should ask someone to look into it.
You didn't build that-Obama
It's pretty lazy to quote things you disagree with, call it stupid and move on, rather than arguing with the person. -000ike
BennyW
Posts: 698
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8/26/2011 11:01:57 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/26/2011 10:35:00 AM, randolph7 wrote:
At 8/26/2011 10:30:09 AM, Indophile wrote:
At 8/26/2011 10:02:35 AM, Danielle wrote:
I agree. It won't solve the problem of biased voting by any means, but it could help. I think it should at least be an option. However I do think that many debates get read specifically because they are advertised, either via the forums, people's signatures or request, so that might make the anonymity kind of problematic. I also think that sometimes people read debates specifically because of who is debating. We could always try it and see how it works out...? Although I do think it's true that the #1 problem is people just voting in accordance with their own views, rather than what was presented in the debate. We can't really fix that.

I agree with you in that I read debates based on who is doing them, mostly. This anonymous mode, if made mandatory, would take away from that.

I think there should be the option of going anonymous.

They could probably still link the debate to the member's profile. So if you wanted to see all ore_ele's debates it would take you there. But if you did a search on a topic or from the home page you wouldn't know who was debating. At least, I assume that's how it'd be implemented.

That is what I was thinking, and I don't think we should get rid of listing the debates someone has done. So it would seem to work in the debate if you can't link to their profile from the debate but can link to the debate from their profile.
You didn't build that-Obama
It's pretty lazy to quote things you disagree with, call it stupid and move on, rather than arguing with the person. -000ike
BlackVoid
Posts: 9,170
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8/26/2011 12:19:10 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/26/2011 10:42:17 AM, randolph7 wrote:
At 8/26/2011 10:37:28 AM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 8/26/2011 10:32:57 AM, randolph7 wrote:
What's the purpose of having a vote counter? I'd like to encourage voting but how would that get accomplished by another stat on the profile?

Some people are motivated by seeing their "success" or "progress."

True, but I think it would be more incentive to make someone have 3 votes before the can take another debate as either as Instigator or not. Kind of like the 3 debate rule before you can vote.

I think that would really being down the amount of debating, because some people simply don't like to vote. Looking at the leaderboard top 30, only 2 of them vote with any kind of consistency.

If there was a vote counter, I would definently vote more for the reason OreEle mentioned, as would many others.
randolph7
Posts: 307
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8/26/2011 1:59:06 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/26/2011 12:19:10 PM, BlackVoid wrote:
At 8/26/2011 10:42:17 AM, randolph7 wrote:
At 8/26/2011 10:37:28 AM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 8/26/2011 10:32:57 AM, randolph7 wrote:
What's the purpose of having a vote counter? I'd like to encourage voting but how would that get accomplished by another stat on the profile?

Some people are motivated by seeing their "success" or "progress."

True, but I think it would be more incentive to make someone have 3 votes before the can take another debate as either as Instigator or not. Kind of like the 3 debate rule before you can vote.

I think that would really being down the amount of debating, because some people simply don't like to vote. Looking at the leaderboard top 30, only 2 of them vote with any kind of consistency.

If there was a vote counter, I would definently vote more for the reason OreEle mentioned, as would many others.

I guess it depends on how badly they want to debate, since voting isn't all that hard, although sometimes it is. It's an indirect incentive and it may work, I don't know. Anyone, have thoughts on why people don't like to vote? If we knew the reasons maybe there's something Juggle could do to help.
"ahh but i have indeed found the burdon of truth the, muffs have found it. oh mothy dear dear mothy"