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Innomen - Panda Presidency Discussion

I-am-a-panda
Posts: 15,380
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11/19/2011 11:33:00 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
In this thread Innomen and I will be discussing issues relating to the candidacy. I would ask that members refrain from asking questions for the time being. The main topics that seem to be of interest are:

- Voting reform
- Site changes
- Forum changes
- Troll/Spammer policies

If Innomen would like to add anything to this I'll be happy to discuss it.
Pizza. I have enormous respect for Pizza.
innomen
Posts: 10,052
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11/19/2011 11:44:34 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/19/2011 11:33:00 AM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
In this thread Innomen and I will be discussing issues relating to the candidacy. I would ask that members refrain from asking questions for the time being. The main topics that seem to be of interest are:

- Voting reform
- Site changes
- Forum changes
- Troll/Spammer policies

If Innomen would like to add anything to this I'll be happy to discuss it.

I'm fine with this list. I am assuming by this you are asserting that you would be better at accomplishing these goals, or whatever goals you may have in mind, than I would be, or have as President?
innomen
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11/19/2011 12:23:44 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
I ask you Panda, although you're a bright kid, you are 16 still in high school; whereas i am an adult, working in the business world. You believe you would be better at working with Juggle than i would be, or have been?
PARADIGM_L0ST
Posts: 6,958
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11/19/2011 1:04:17 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
I'd like Innomen to be a two-term president. He's diplomatic, he's objective, level-headed, mature, and a proven record of success with Juggle.

Vote Innomen 2012!
"Have you ever considered suicide? If not, please do." -- Mouthwash (to Inferno)
I-am-a-panda
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11/19/2011 1:05:16 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/19/2011 11:44:34 AM, innomen wrote:
At 11/19/2011 11:33:00 AM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
In this thread Innomen and I will be discussing issues relating to the candidacy. I would ask that members refrain from asking questions for the time being. The main topics that seem to be of interest are:

- Voting reform
- Site changes
- Forum changes
- Troll/Spammer policies

If Innomen would like to add anything to this I'll be happy to discuss it.

I'm fine with this list. I am assuming by this you are asserting that you would be better at accomplishing these goals, or whatever goals you may have in mind, than I would be, or have as President?

Pretty much. I'm assuming this thread is to simply debate our proposals.

I ask you Panda, although you're a bright kid, you are 16 still in high school; whereas i am an adult, working in the business world. You believe you would be better at working with Juggle than i would be, or have been?

In 2 weeks I'll be 17 and in 9 months I'll be in college. The appearance of me being young and unsuitable this job on these grounds is misleading at best. In response, you are astute, don't get me wrong. However, you sell paper products on commission for a third-rate company in a dying industry after 20+ years of work experience. The presidency is a representation of the needs and the desires of the site to Juggle. You really think your age works for you in relating to a site where most members are my age? Clearly you don't relate to the debate nature of the site as any intelligent debater can pick out what you just did as an appeal to age.

No offence intended, but you seem to be blunt about my background. I really don't think age is going to clearly differentiate two candidates in terms of ability. And yes, I think my proposals will be better suited to DDO, it's the reason why I'm running. I'm about ideas, not personalty.

As for your background, in what way you say you have applied your business experience in running DDO?
Pizza. I have enormous respect for Pizza.
innomen
Posts: 10,052
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11/19/2011 1:28:07 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/19/2011 1:05:16 PM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
At 11/19/2011 11:44:34 AM, innomen wrote:
At 11/19/2011 11:33:00 AM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
In this thread Innomen and I will be discussing issues relating to the candidacy. I would ask that members refrain from asking questions for the time being. The main topics that seem to be of interest are:

- Voting reform
- Site changes
- Forum changes
- Troll/Spammer policies

If Innomen would like to add anything to this I'll be happy to discuss it.

I'm fine with this list. I am assuming by this you are asserting that you would be better at accomplishing these goals, or whatever goals you may have in mind, than I would be, or have as President?

Pretty much. I'm assuming this thread is to simply debate our proposals.

I ask you Panda, although you're a bright kid, you are 16 still in high school; whereas i am an adult, working in the business world. You believe you would be better at working with Juggle than i would be, or have been?

In 2 weeks I'll be 17 and in 9 months I'll be in college. The appearance of me being young and unsuitable this job on these grounds is misleading at best. In response, you are astute, don't get me wrong. However, you sell paper products on commission for a third-rate company in a dying industry after 20+ years of work experience. The presidency is a representation of the needs and the desires of the site to Juggle. You really think your age works for you in relating to a site where most members are my age? Clearly you don't relate to the debate nature of the site as any intelligent debater can pick out what you just did as an appeal to age.

No offence intended, but you seem to be blunt about my background. I really don't think age is going to clearly differentiate two candidates in terms of ability. And yes, I think my proposals will be better suited to DDO, it's the reason why I'm running. I'm about ideas, not personalty.

As for your background, in what way you say you have applied your business experience in running DDO?

I would hardly call OfficeMax a 3rd rate company, we employ 30,000 people, and are global, and yes, i have worked there for a long time, but i manage 7 million dollars in "paper products" a year, and work at the C-Level of management of companies that employ 10,000 employees or more. I negotiate, propose and compose contracts with these companies and institutions that are multi-faceted, multi-year and legally binding. Although it was not my intent to provide any personal resume here, i would say that i am far better suited and experienced at dealing with a corporation than you are. I wasn't being coy about the age difference and an appeal to age, i was being quite forthright about it.

You're a senior in high school, which is great. I don't mean to demean you, but rather just point out the difference in experience in how we would deal with Juggle.

As far as dealing with the people here, and how they are often quite younger than i am; I'll let them make up their minds about that. If i come off as condescending or dismissive because of the age differential, it's never been brought to my attention; in fact i believe i have, on occasion, mentioned how much i have learned from people who are a fraction of my age. But this is something that you nor I can do anything about, our age is our age, and the voters will take it for what it's worth.

You mention you have ideas, and it's in your sig that you are pragmatic. All goals must be attainable for them not to be dreams, and all goals must have a clear plan. What are your goals, and please tell me your implementation plan for the goals. Implementation requires specific and exacting action; who will be doing what and how. Please spell out a couple of your goals and your implementation plans to demonstrate your ideas and your pragmatism.
Mr.Infidel
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11/19/2011 1:59:13 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
You have quite a large number of tasks on yoyt platform. How will you be fulfilling your promises?
Please donate to the following ENDANGERED SPECIES!
Preciousness of life.
Family structure.
Family values. 

Disarm a liberal. Vote for values.

Opinions of this signature are those of G-d's and any of His affiliates.
I-am-a-panda
Posts: 15,380
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11/19/2011 2:08:27 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/19/2011 1:28:07 PM, innomen wrote:
At 11/19/2011 1:05:16 PM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
At 11/19/2011 11:44:34 AM, innomen wrote:
At 11/19/2011 11:33:00 AM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
In this thread Innomen and I will be discussing issues relating to the candidacy. I would ask that members refrain from asking questions for the time being. The main topics that seem to be of interest are:

- Voting reform
- Site changes
- Forum changes
- Troll/Spammer policies

If Innomen would like to add anything to this I'll be happy to discuss it.

I'm fine with this list. I am assuming by this you are asserting that you would be better at accomplishing these goals, or whatever goals you may have in mind, than I would be, or have as President?

Pretty much. I'm assuming this thread is to simply debate our proposals.

I ask you Panda, although you're a bright kid, you are 16 still in high school; whereas i am an adult, working in the business world. You believe you would be better at working with Juggle than i would be, or have been?

In 2 weeks I'll be 17 and in 9 months I'll be in college. The appearance of me being young and unsuitable this job on these grounds is misleading at best. In response, you are astute, don't get me wrong. However, you sell paper products on commission for a third-rate company in a dying industry after 20+ years of work experience. The presidency is a representation of the needs and the desires of the site to Juggle. You really think your age works for you in relating to a site where most members are my age? Clearly you don't relate to the debate nature of the site as any intelligent debater can pick out what you just did as an appeal to age.

No offence intended, but you seem to be blunt about my background. I really don't think age is going to clearly differentiate two candidates in terms of ability. And yes, I think my proposals will be better suited to DDO, it's the reason why I'm running. I'm about ideas, not personalty.

As for your background, in what way you say you have applied your business experience in running DDO?

I would hardly call OfficeMax a 3rd rate company, we employ 30,000 people, and are global, and yes, i have worked there for a long time, but i manage 7 million dollars in "paper products" a year, and work at the C-Level of management of companies that employ 10,000 employees or more. I negotiate, propose and compose contracts with these companies and institutions that are multi-faceted, multi-year and legally binding. Although it was not my intent to provide any personal resume here, i would say that i am far better suited and experienced at dealing with a corporation than you are. I wasn't being coy about the age difference and an appeal to age, i was being quite forthright about it.

You're a senior in high school, which is great. I don't mean to demean you, but rather just point out the difference in experience in how we would deal with Juggle.

And this corporate experience seems to have made you secretive. DDO isn't a massive corporation of 30,000, it's a small community in the dozens. Your experience in dealing at such a high level seems to have made you unresponsive to Juggle. Your presidency seems to be hush-hush and secretive and seem to be more Juggles lawyer than our President.


As far as dealing with the people here, and how they are often quite younger than i am; I'll let them make up their minds about that. If i come off as condescending or dismissive because of the age differential, it's never been brought to my attention; in fact i believe i have, on occasion, mentioned how much i have learned from people who are a fraction of my age. But this is something that you nor I can do anything about, our age is our age, and the voters will take it for what it's worth.

Then I would hope that if you respect age and aren't ageist, and hope that the community isn't, that you would refrain from asking if a 16 year old can be president.


You mention you have ideas, and it's in your sig that you are pragmatic. All goals must be attainable for them not to be dreams, and all goals must have a clear plan. What are your goals, and please tell me your implementation plan for the goals. Implementation requires specific and exacting action; who will be doing what and how. Please spell out a couple of your goals and your implementation plans to demonstrate your ideas and your pragmatism.

My goals are here for all to see: http://www.debate.org...

My plan to implement these is not set. Once I establish a cabinet we will prioritize and each member will have their own job of implementing these proposals, with the cabinets input of course.

As an example, my plan to reform Mafia will be a suggestion given to the community. I will actively work with them if reform is wanted.

Out of curiosity, where is your list of goals, and plan?
Pizza. I have enormous respect for Pizza.
innomen
Posts: 10,052
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11/19/2011 2:36:23 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/19/2011 2:08:27 PM, I-am-a-panda wrote:


And this corporate experience seems to have made you secretive. DDO isn't a massive corporation of 30,000, it's a small community in the dozens. Your experience in dealing at such a high level seems to have made you unresponsive to Juggle. Your presidency seems to be hush-hush and secretive and seem to be more Juggles lawyer than our President.


Funny, I've heard this, that I'm secretive in what i do. There is some merit to this critique, but what you call secret i call private. I don't think it fair for me to make all issues public, especially since they often involve the personal information of members, and i also respect the unspoken sanctity of our PM's. Should i post somewhere every time I've resolved or been given an issue? Should i make the IP reports that juggle gives me available in a thread or post? Should i make all my emails that i have with Juggle public? I sincerely doubt you would, and if you should, you would be demonstrating some imprudent behavior. I have earned and negotiated certain information and ability within the express confidence of Juggle, would you throw that away for uncertain benefit? Is it even necessary for me to log my daily activities as President, again with the potential of violating privacy and decency?


As far as dealing with the people here, and how they are often quite younger than i am; I'll let them make up their minds about that. If i come off as condescending or dismissive because of the age differential, it's never been brought to my attention; in fact i believe i have, on occasion, mentioned how much i have learned from people who are a fraction of my age. But this is something that you nor I can do anything about, our age is our age, and the voters will take it for what it's worth.

Then I would hope that if you respect age and aren't ageist, and hope that the community isn't, that you would refrain from asking if a 16 year old can be president.

Of course not, but facts are facts, I am old and you are young, what bearing that plays is up to the voter.

You mention you have ideas, and it's in your sig that you are pragmatic. All goals must be attainable for them not to be dreams, and all goals must have a clear plan. What are your goals, and please tell me your implementation plan for the goals. Implementation requires specific and exacting action; who will be doing what and how. Please spell out a couple of your goals and your implementation plans to demonstrate your ideas and your pragmatism.

My goals are here for all to see: http://www.debate.org...

My plan to implement these is not set. Once I establish a cabinet we will prioritize and each member will have their own job of implementing these proposals, with the cabinets input of course.

Again a list of goals without a concrete plan is just a wish list. I too delegate, and really rely upon a few key people here, but in the end i have forged the steps that have led up to the changes that have taken place during my presidency.

As an example, my plan to reform Mafia will be a suggestion given to the community. I will actively work with them if reform is wanted.


Out of curiosity, where is your list of goals, and plan?

Most of my goals are in the area of updates. Admittedly the Big Issues irritates me a lot, but i have decided to wait until after the election before i begin again with Juggle on this. I have found that, with juggle it's best to not to give them a barrage of demands, but to slowly feed them low hanging fruit mixed with some larger projects. The voting box in your profile was a major project, the change in voting period was low hanging fruit. Essentially there is also a priority, and general agenda on my part to bring more ability in site administration from juggle and toward the DDO community, and in this i have made greater strides than I even dreamed.
I-am-a-panda
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11/19/2011 3:15:07 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/19/2011 2:36:23 PM, innomen wrote:
At 11/19/2011 2:08:27 PM, I-am-a-panda wrote:


And this corporate experience seems to have made you secretive. DDO isn't a massive corporation of 30,000, it's a small community in the dozens. Your experience in dealing at such a high level seems to have made you unresponsive to Juggle. Your presidency seems to be hush-hush and secretive and seem to be more Juggles lawyer than our President.


Funny, I've heard this, that I'm secretive in what i do. There is some merit to this critique, but what you call secret i call private. I don't think it fair for me to make all issues public, especially since they often involve the personal information of members, and i also respect the unspoken sanctity of our PM's. Should i post somewhere every time I've resolved or been given an issue? Should i make the IP reports that juggle gives me available in a thread or post? Should i make all my emails that i have with Juggle public? I sincerely doubt you would, and if you should, you would be demonstrating some imprudent behavior. I have earned and negotiated certain information and ability within the express confidence of Juggle, would you throw that away for uncertain benefit? Is it even necessary for me to log my daily activities as President, again with the potential of violating privacy and decency?

There's matters than need be private, I agree wholeheartedly. However, you seem distant. In the past few weeks you haven't had any updates, as far as I can see. Either you are neglecting to announce things, or have nothing not announce, it would seem.

Announcing things like "Complains have been lodged about x, and have been duly noted" would be encouraging and relieving that DDO's interests are being represented.



As far as dealing with the people here, and how they are often quite younger than i am; I'll let them make up their minds about that. If i come off as condescending or dismissive because of the age differential, it's never been brought to my attention; in fact i believe i have, on occasion, mentioned how much i have learned from people who are a fraction of my age. But this is something that you nor I can do anything about, our age is our age, and the voters will take it for what it's worth.

Then I would hope that if you respect age and aren't ageist, and hope that the community isn't, that you would refrain from asking if a 16 year old can be president.

Of course not, but facts are facts, I am old and you are young, what bearing that plays is up to the voter.

Of course emphasizing this can subliminally influence voters.


You mention you have ideas, and it's in your sig that you are pragmatic. All goals must be attainable for them not to be dreams, and all goals must have a clear plan. What are your goals, and please tell me your implementation plan for the goals. Implementation requires specific and exacting action; who will be doing what and how. Please spell out a couple of your goals and your implementation plans to demonstrate your ideas and your pragmatism.

My goals are here for all to see: http://www.debate.org...

My plan to implement these is not set. Once I establish a cabinet we will prioritize and each member will have their own job of implementing these proposals, with the cabinets input of course.

Again a list of goals without a concrete plan is just a wish list. I too delegate, and really rely upon a few key people here, but in the end i have forged the steps that have led up to the changes that have taken place during my presidency.


As an example, my plan to reform Mafia will be a suggestion given to the community. I will actively work with them if reform is wanted.


Out of curiosity, where is your list of goals, and plan?

Most of my goals are in the area of updates. Admittedly the Big Issues irritates me a lot, but i have decided to wait until after the election before i begin again with Juggle on this. I have found that, with juggle it's best to not to give them a barrage of demands, but to slowly feed them low hanging fruit mixed with some larger projects. The voting box in your profile was a major project, the change in voting period was low hanging fruit. Essentially there is also a priority, and general agenda on my part to bring more ability in site administration from juggle and toward the DDO community, and in this i have made greater strides than I even dreamed.

I find these goals fairly vague. While my list is long it will be done slowly , while you have no definitive list. Undefined hopes will get a president nowhere if he can't focus in on specific issues and solutions.

I mean no offence in saying this, but you've been in office 6 months. And, within 6 months you've gotten the voting box and a change in voting period. Extra changes could have easily been implemented along these things, and one change like this every 3 months is bordering on a terrible record. You stress your relationship with Juggle, but what about the rest of your cabinet? Is it just a one-man show?
Pizza. I have enormous respect for Pizza.
innomen
Posts: 10,052
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11/19/2011 3:43:55 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/19/2011 3:15:07 PM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
At 11/19/2011 2:36:23 PM, innomen wrote:
At 11/19/2011 2:08:27 PM, I-am-a-panda wrote:


And this corporate experience seems to have made you secretive. DDO isn't a massive corporation of 30,000, it's a small community in the dozens. Your experience in dealing at such a high level seems to have made you unresponsive to Juggle. Your presidency seems to be hush-hush and secretive and seem to be more Juggles lawyer than our President.


Funny, I've heard this, that I'm secretive in what i do. There is some merit to this critique, but what you call secret i call private. I don't think it fair for me to make all issues public, especially since they often involve the personal information of members, and i also respect the unspoken sanctity of our PM's. Should i post somewhere every time I've resolved or been given an issue? Should i make the IP reports that juggle gives me available in a thread or post? Should i make all my emails that i have with Juggle public? I sincerely doubt you would, and if you should, you would be demonstrating some imprudent behavior. I have earned and negotiated certain information and ability within the express confidence of Juggle, would you throw that away for uncertain benefit? Is it even necessary for me to log my daily activities as President, again with the potential of violating privacy and decency?

There's matters that need be private, I agree wholeheartedly. However, you seem distant. In the past few weeks you haven't had any updates, as far as I can see. Either you are neglecting to announce things, or have nothing not announce, it would seem.

Distant? I slog through reports daily, and just a few moments ago reached out to a new user who seems to be pretty sensitive about some of the things that are said here. I am privy to all reports, that's not something that we've ever had before, nor has anyone had any inclination to resolve individual complaints and reports. I routinely provide voting privileges to members, particularly the non Americans. I go through IP reports and with the help others we look at the dupes and analyze any damage being done, and we ban those who abuse the system. Yesterday i banned 13 people. Yes i have this ability, which no one in DDO history has ever garnered.
Announcing things like "Complains have been lodged about x, and have been duly noted" would be encouraging and relieving that DDO's interests are being represented.



As far as dealing with the people here, and how they are often quite younger than i am; I'll let them make up their minds about that. If i come off as condescending or dismissive because of the age differential, it's never been brought to my attention; in fact i believe i have, on occasion, mentioned how much i have learned from people who are a fraction of my age. But this is something that you nor I can do anything about, our age is our age, and the voters will take it for what it's worth. I really doubt anyone would really be interested in a log of the daily stuff that's done, especially after i edit out anything that would violate personal privacy.


Most of my goals are in the area of updates. Admittedly the Big Issues irritates me a lot, but i have decided to wait until after the election before i begin again with Juggle on this. I have found that, with juggle it's best to not to give them a barrage of demands, but to slowly feed them low hanging fruit mixed with some larger projects. The voting box in your profile was a major project, the change in voting period was low hanging fruit. Essentially there is also a priority, and general agenda on my part to bring more ability in site administration from juggle and toward the DDO community, and in this i have made greater strides than I even dreamed.

I find these goals fairly vague. While my list is long it will be done slowly , while you have no definitive list. Undefined hopes will get a president nowhere if he can't focus in on specific issues and solutions.

Again, i am unable to provide specifics without divulging information that Juggle has given me.

I mean no offence in saying this, but you've been in office 6 months. And, within 6 months you've gotten the voting box and a change in voting period. Extra changes could have easily been implemented along these things, and one change like this every 3 months is bordering on a terrible record. You stress your relationship with Juggle, but what about the rest of your cabinet? Is it just a one-man show?

How long was it before we could get people from outside the US voting ability? When in DDO history has anyone been given mod ability, and has the power to ban or release a ban? How many presidents have come and gone with virtually nothing changed, and during my presidency there has been more substantive changes to the site than any other president in DDO history. Name on president that has accomplished anything at all. Name a president that got routine IP checks, and even had an inclination to resolve issues of its members. Name a president that can ban someone.

Question for you; you have indicated that you would be tougher on trolls. What criteria do you use in this, and what would you do? Would you ban Izbo? How would you tighten control?
bluesteel
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11/19/2011 4:58:24 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
innomen, when you say, "no president before me has done _______, and _______," you know as well as I do that was merely because Phil owned the site and was unresponsive to community needs. I'm not saying you've done nothing, but DDO has had other committed presidents and members who tried to get Phil to change things and he wouldn't. You can't take all the credit for the ownership change.

You were asked, once again, what site updates you have planned. Yet, you keep saying that you and Juggle have these dirty little secrets that you can't share. How are SITE UPDATES a dirty secret that you can't share? We're not asking for IP addresses of users or their PM conversations. ... Site updates. What are you hiding?

Also, can we get a full accounting of all the powers you've acquired for yourself. I don't remember agreeing to giving you banning powers. We had discussions about user mods but I don't remember when we agreed to make you one. What kind of info does Juggle share with you? Do you have full site control? Can you view my PM's if you wanted to? Like, this is just totally uncool innomen. I appreciate you banning multi-accounters, but this process has no transparency. It feels icky, especially given that you are refusing to divulge any aspects of your full relationship with Juggle.

Last, are you saying that you would withhold these same privileges from your successor. You said, in another thread, that you WANTED to train your successor and pass on your good relationship with Juggle. Are you already going back on those words? Would you refuse to transition Panda? Would you refuse to give up mod privileges? The power to verify identity and ban would/could obviously be passed on.

And honestly, I'm not too happy with you having these privileges since many of the people whose identities you have validated are vote bombing our debate out of "gratitude" or something.

Ultimately, given your powers will be passed on, your only legacy is as follows:

1) You got the "total votes cast" box added to our profiles.

2) You oversaw the ancap exodus and failed to get any of them to return.
You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into - Jonathan Swift (paraphrase)
I-am-a-panda
Posts: 15,380
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11/19/2011 5:06:31 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/19/2011 3:43:55 PM, innomen wrote:
At 11/19/2011 3:15:07 PM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
At 11/19/2011 2:36:23 PM, innomen wrote:
At 11/19/2011 2:08:27 PM, I-am-a-panda wrote:


And this corporate experience seems to have made you secretive. DDO isn't a massive corporation of 30,000, it's a small community in the dozens. Your experience in dealing at such a high level seems to have made you unresponsive to Juggle. Your presidency seems to be hush-hush and secretive and seem to be more Juggles lawyer than our President.


Funny, I've heard this, that I'm secretive in what i do. There is some merit to this critique, but what you call secret i call private. I don't think it fair for me to make all issues public, especially since they often involve the personal information of members, and i also respect the unspoken sanctity of our PM's. Should i post somewhere every time I've resolved or been given an issue? Should i make the IP reports that juggle gives me available in a thread or post? Should i make all my emails that i have with Juggle public? I sincerely doubt you would, and if you should, you would be demonstrating some imprudent behavior. I have earned and negotiated certain information and ability within the express confidence of Juggle, would you throw that away for uncertain benefit? Is it even necessary for me to log my daily activities as President, again with the potential of violating privacy and decency?

There's matters that need be private, I agree wholeheartedly. However, you seem distant. In the past few weeks you haven't had any updates, as far as I can see. Either you are neglecting to announce things, or have nothing not announce, it would seem.

Distant? I slog through reports daily, and just a few moments ago reached out to a new user who seems to be pretty sensitive about some of the things that are said here. I am privy to all reports, that's not something that we've ever had before, nor has anyone had any inclination to resolve individual complaints and reports. I routinely provide voting privileges to members, particularly the non Americans. I go through IP reports and with the help others we look at the dupes and analyze any damage being done, and we ban those who abuse the system. Yesterday i banned 13 people. Yes i have this ability, which no one in DDO history has ever garnered.

And yet I doubt many in the DDO community were aware of this. I was unaware of this. Knowledge like this completely changes the game of the DDO Presidency. Openness is key. Unless people know what their presidency can do, and is doing, then he becomes distant. I have no doubt that you are involved in ways, but we're not seeing this involvement, For a lot of people you simply seem to be in the shadows.




As far as dealing with the people here, and how they are often quite younger than i am; I'll let them make up their minds about that. If i come off as condescending or dismissive because of the age differential, it's never been brought to my attention; in fact i believe i have, on occasion, mentioned how much i have learned from people who are a fraction of my age. But this is something that you nor I can do anything about, our age is our age, and the voters will take it for what it's worth. I really doubt anyone would really be interested in a log of the daily stuff that's done, especially after i edit out anything that would violate personal privacy.


Most of my goals are in the area of updates. Admittedly the Big Issues irritates me a lot, but i have decided to wait until after the election before i begin again with Juggle on this. I have found that, with juggle it's best to not to give them a barrage of demands, but to slowly feed them low hanging fruit mixed with some larger projects. The voting box in your profile was a major project, the change in voting period was low hanging fruit. Essentially there is also a priority, and general agenda on my part to bring more ability in site administration from juggle and toward the DDO community, and in this i have made greater strides than I even dreamed.

I find these goals fairly vague. While my list is long it will be done slowly , while you have no definitive list. Undefined hopes will get a president nowhere if he can't focus in on specific issues and solutions.

Again, i am unable to provide specifics without divulging information that Juggle has given me.

So you don't have your own goals, rather what Juggle has told you they want you to do?


I mean no offence in saying this, but you've been in office 6 months. And, within 6 months you've gotten the voting box and a change in voting period. Extra changes could have easily been implemented along these things, and one change like this every 3 months is bordering on a terrible record. You stress your relationship with Juggle, but what about the rest of your cabinet? Is it just a one-man show?

How long was it before we could get people from outside the US voting ability?

I got it before you gained the Presidency.

When in DDO history has anyone been given mod ability, and has the power to ban or release a ban? How many presidents have come and gone with virtually nothing changed, and during my presidency there has been more substantive changes to the site than any other president in DDO history.Name on president that has accomplished anything at all. Name a president that got routine IP checks, and even had an inclination to resolve issues of its members. Name a president that can ban someone.

This was because you were the first President to have competent owners. No-one could be expected to make these gains under Phil. You aren't working in the same conditions as very past president. You actually have owners who will listen to you and grant you these powers. I have no doubt that if Phil still owned DDO, you woud have gotten none of these, and that if Askbob was elected president, or anyone who sought to use the Presidency for that matter, they would have gotten powers.

I shall ask again - What role has your cabinet played?


Question for you; you have indicated that you would be tougher on trolls. What criteria do you use in this, and what would you do? Would you ban Izbo? How would you tighten control?

I have indicated that trolling has been hyped if anything. The current levels of trolling, spamming, etc. are a relative low. However, trolling is trolling. I would firstly work with my cabinet to define what exactly IS trolling. Then, I would ask the community what is trolling. Weighing this up, I would retain a definition of trolling, and ask Juggle to consider making it an offense that results in banning/suspension. That would be how I would tackle trolling.
Pizza. I have enormous respect for Pizza.
innomen
Posts: 10,052
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11/20/2011 5:14:22 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/19/2011 5:06:31 PM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
At 11/19/2011 3:43:55 PM, innomen wrote:
At 11/19/2011 3:15:07 PM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
At 11/19/2011 2:36:23 PM, innomen wrote:
At 11/19/2011 2:08:27 PM, I-am-a-panda wrote:


And yet I doubt many in the DDO community were aware of this. I was unaware of this. Knowledge like this completely changes the game of the DDO Presidency. Openness is key. Unless people know what their presidency can do, and is doing, then he becomes distant. I have no doubt that you are involved in ways, but we're not seeing this involvement, For a lot of people you simply seem to be in the shadows.

Some are aware, i see no need in letting everyone know, but many have connected the dots, and many more I have told. You have been pretty absent over the last year, so you have been pretty much out of tune with what's been going on.

Understand this: Modding does not go with the job of presidency, nor was it granted to me because i was elected president, but because of the relationship that i fostered with Juggle. Know that, if you become president you will not be handed mod ability by de facto, in fact it is very unlikely Juggle will accept you as a candidate to mod.

Many times during the week i am PMing people to resolve issues, many times they are personal, many times they are of no interest to the site as a whole. I further feel no obligation to make public my every move as President, but on occasion i will put a thread out there to get a feel for the site's feelings on an issue.





I find these goals fairly vague. While my list is long it will be done slowly , while you have no definitive list. Undefined hopes will get a president nowhere if he can't focus in on specific issues and solutions.

My friend, you're running on promises that will never be kept. You have no idea how it works with juggle. Best case scenario is they push back, but more likely they will simply not respond to your PM's, and they will not include you in their emails. The work with them is slow, and it requires careful feeding of requests, and knowing where they are likely to devote resources. I take my requests with juggle one by one, and like i said next is the big issues, and they have been pushing back a lot on that, but i will continue, then i will move to the next improvement.

Again, i am unable to provide specifics without divulging information that Juggle has given me.

So you don't have your own goals, rather what Juggle has told you they want you to do?

I didn't say that, all i am saying is that to get things done with Juggle, i have found, you have to play by their game, or else they will shut you out. If you feel you have a better angle on dealing with them go for it. I can tell you that i have tried various strategies in dealing with them, and have found the best one is to play their game their way, and it means slow work, but a good working relationship.




How long was it before we could get people from outside the US voting ability?

I got it before you gained the Presidency.

Is that how you would be president? I got mine, so who cares? The list is pretty extensive on who i was able to provide voting ability for. In fact i just got a PM request now for someone.

This was because you were the first President to have competent owners. No-one could be expected to make these gains under Phil. You aren't working in the same conditions as very past president. You actually have owners who will listen to you and grant you these powers. I have no doubt that if Phil still owned DDO, you woud have gotten none of these, and that if Askbob was elected president, or anyone who sought to use the Presidency for that matter, they would have gotten powers.

No sir, check your timeline again. Cody was president under Juggle, and he vacated the site upon election for a period of time. Secondly, my relationship with juggle began before i became president and had been asked by juggle, they sought me out, to be their ears. You are working on a great many assumptions on modding. I was given mod ability not because i am president, but because i am innomen, and they respect me, and trust me.

I shall ask again - What role has your cabinet played?

I don't remember you asking me this before, apologies. I have a constant thread going with my advisers, it has had various incarnations, but has been going since my election. This inner circle thread is composed of a cross section of the site and i am in constant contact with them on various issues. Obviously the biggest issue is what level of tolerance should we have here on DDO, and I am always uncomfortable in banning people without running it by others first. There are some exceptions to that of course, but any big ban is discussed first. I have allowed medic to be minister of mafia, mostly because he wanted to take the time in running the beginner games, and i felt that pretty important. However, I honestly do not claim or impose any regulation to the mafia games, it's for the players to hash all that out, because they are the ones best suited to run it.


Question for you; you have indicated that you would be tougher on trolls. What criteria do you use in this, and what would you do? Would you ban Izbo? How would you tighten control?

I have indicated that trolling has been hyped if anything. The current levels of trolling, spamming, etc. are a relative low. However, trolling is trolling. I would firstly work with my cabinet to define what exactly IS trolling. Then, I would ask the community what is trolling. Weighing this up, I would retain a definition of trolling, and ask Juggle to consider making it an offense that results in banning/suspension. That would be how I would tackle trolling.

Would you ban Izbo?
CosmicAlfonzo
Posts: 5,955
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11/20/2011 12:15:06 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
I know Pandas are like the friendliest(and therefore least awesome) of all the bears, and they mostly eat mostly bamboo or something... A bear is still a bear. Do you feel comfortable having THIS in your presidential manor?

http://www.forkparty.com...

See? Erm... Angry! Look at those teeth.. Those..

Never mind, I ain't going to lie, even when angry, pandas totally look like the just want a hug.
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
I-am-a-panda
Posts: 15,380
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11/21/2011 2:31:18 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/20/2011 5:14:22 AM, innomen wrote:
At 11/19/2011 5:06:31 PM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
At 11/19/2011 3:43:55 PM, innomen wrote:
At 11/19/2011 3:15:07 PM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
At 11/19/2011 2:36:23 PM, innomen wrote:
At 11/19/2011 2:08:27 PM, I-am-a-panda wrote:


And yet I doubt many in the DDO community were aware of this. I was unaware of this. Knowledge like this completely changes the game of the DDO Presidency. Openness is key. Unless people know what their presidency can do, and is doing, then he becomes distant. I have no doubt that you are involved in ways, but we're not seeing this involvement, For a lot of people you simply seem to be in the shadows.

Some are aware, i see no need in letting everyone know, but many have connected the dots, and many more I have told. You have been pretty absent over the last year, so you have been pretty much out of tune with what's been going on.

At the same time, one should be able to find this information weekly. Have you ever entertained the idea of saying who you've banned and allowing for an appeal, or crating a thread to ask DDO users what they think the most pressing issues facign DDOs are?


Understand this: Modding does not go with the job of presidency, nor was it granted to me because i was elected president, but because of the relationship that i fostered with Juggle. Know that, if you become president you will not be handed mod ability by de facto, in fact it is very unlikely Juggle will accept you as a candidate to mod.

Answer me this: If you had not been president, and Askbob had, would you have still been mod? Also, will Juggle allowing you to keep this modding power if you do not return as president?


Many times during the week i am PMing people to resolve issues, many times they are personal, many times they are of no interest to the site as a whole. I further feel no obligation to make public my every move as President, but on occasion i will put a thread out there to get a feel for the site's feelings on an issue.

I haven't seen these threads, so perhaps a link to a recent one would be helpful.






I find these goals fairly vague. While my list is long it will be done slowly , while you have no definitive list. Undefined hopes will get a president nowhere if he can't focus in on specific issues and solutions.

My friend, you're running on promises that will never be kept. You have no idea how it works with juggle. Best case scenario is they push back, but more likely they will simply not respond to your PM's, and they will not include you in their emails. The work with them is slow, and it requires careful feeding of requests, and knowing where they are likely to devote resources. I take my requests with juggle one by one, and like i said next is the big issues, and they have been pushing back a lot on that, but i will continue, then i will move to the next improvement.

Juggle has readily recognized President(s?) before you, and rather swiftly. Since I would be quickly recognized, then I will have the bargaining posiiton fo Preseident, no?

And should another member be elected, would you "help [your] replacement establish the same good working relationship with juggle." to make accomplish their goals, as you previously promised?


Again, i am unable to provide specifics without divulging information that Juggle has given me.

So you don't have your own goals, rather what Juggle has told you they want you to do?

I didn't say that, all i am saying is that to get things done with Juggle, i have found, you have to play by their game, or else they will shut you out. If you feel you have a better angle on dealing with them go for it. I can tell you that i have tried various strategies in dealing with them, and have found the best one is to play their game their way, and it means slow work, but a good working relationship.

Thanks for an honest answer, at least. What have said strategies been?





How long was it before we could get people from outside the US voting ability?

I got it before you gained the Presidency.

Is that how you would be president? I got mine, so who cares? The list is pretty extensive on who i was able to provide voting ability for. In fact i just got a PM request now for someone.

What I'm saying is it wasn't impossible to get voting ability before you became President. Sure, you've made the process speedier, but it wasn't an impossible task.


This was because you were the first President to have competent owners. No-one could be expected to make these gains under Phil. You aren't working in the same conditions as very past president. You actually have owners who will listen to you and grant you these powers. I have no doubt that if Phil still owned DDO, you woud have gotten none of these, and that if Askbob was elected president, or anyone who sought to use the Presidency for that matter, they would have gotten powers.

No sir, check your timeline again. Cody was president under Juggle, and he vacated the site upon election for a period of time. Secondly, my relationship with juggle began before i became president and had been asked by juggle, they sought me out, to be their ears. You are working on a great many assumptions on modding. I was given mod ability not because i am president, but because i am innomen, and they respect me, and trust me.

Cody became absent. Had he stayed and got in contact with Juggle, would he, or would he not have gained powers?



I shall ask again - What role has your cabinet played?

I don't remember you asking me this before, apologies. I have a constant thread going with my advisers, it has had various incarnations, but has been going since my election. This inner circle thread is composed of a cross section of the site and i am in constant contact with them on various issues. Obviously the biggest issue is what level of tolerance should we have here on DDO, and I am always uncomfortable in banning people without running it by others first. There are some exceptions to that of course, but any big ban is discussed first. I have allowed medic to be minister of mafia, mostly because he wanted to take the time in running the beginner games, and i felt that pretty important. However, I honestly do not claim or impose any regulation to the mafia games, it's for the players to hash all that out, because they are the ones best suited to run it.

Interesting. So your cabinet takes place in the background rather than in public?

And, would you be more inclined to listen to this "inner circle" than DDO at large?



Question for you; you have indicated that you would be tougher on trolls. What criteria do you use in this, and what would you do? Would you ban Izbo? How would you tighten control?

I have indicated that trolling has been hyped if anything. The current levels of trolling, spamming, etc. are a relative low. However, trolling is trolling. I would firstly work with my cabinet to define what exactly IS trolling. Then, I would ask the community what is trolling. Weighing this up, I would retain a definition of trolling, and ask Juggle to consider making it an offense that results in banning/suspension. That would be how I would tackle trolling.

Would you ban Izbo?

Depends on how trolling is defined. He seems to be troublesome, to what degree I don't know. I will never use my sole judgement to ban someone unless they clearly breach the ToC and/or this agreed upon definition of troll.
Pizza. I have enormous respect for Pizza.
Wnope
Posts: 6,924
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11/21/2011 2:43:03 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
One thing that does make me hesitate is the possibility that Panda is as blunt in his negotiations as is his campaign rhetoric.

Now, it may sound strange to hear the complaint "you will stick to your principles too much," but in actual political negotiation from a point of zero leverage (the President has none), approaching Juggle with a politically antagonist agenda will likely make him simply disengage in the process. Think of it like Parliament versus the King in early Britian. You can yell at members of parliament all you want, but if you treat the king like parliament (in the good old days), you'll probably be beheaded.

I can only assume Panda will find this whole concept of kowtowing and minimizing goals to be "dishonest" and a political surrender. That simply proves my point.
innomen
Posts: 10,052
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11/21/2011 3:25:58 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/21/2011 2:31:18 PM, I-am-a-panda wrote:


At the same time, one should be able to find this information weekly. Have you ever entertained the idea of saying who you've banned and allowing for an appeal, or crating a thread to ask DDO users what they think the most pressing issues facign DDOs are?

Actually i have. Which was why i wanted your answer on Izbo. Specific to Izbo and trolling in general i have asked the site, and went with their wishes, the majority made a plea for his stay. We repeatedly get reports from him and on him, he is a pain in the rear, but the site spoke, and i respected that, but would be willing to poll the site again of course. I have taken the temperature of the site in subtle ways, without making a direct statement of my intention. You may find that secretive, but i find i will get a more candid answer without it having any contigency of following action. That is my perogative and my judgment, you may be free to point that as a difference in how you would be president.


Answer me this: If you had not been president, and Askbob had, would you have still been mod? Also, will Juggle allowing you to keep this modding power if you do not return as president?

Yes to both.

Many times during the week i am PMing people to resolve issues, many times they are personal, many times they are of no interest to the site as a whole. I further feel no obligation to make public my every move as President, but on occasion i will put a thread out there to get a feel for the site's feelings on an issue.

I haven't seen these threads, so perhaps a link to a recent one would be helpful.

I'll try and dig up the one on Izbo. It has been quiet, so there hasn't been any need for anything recently.





I find these goals fairly vague. While my list is long it will be done slowly , while you have no definitive list. Undefined hopes will get a president nowhere if he can't focus in on specific issues and solutions.

Juggle has readily recognized President(s?) before you, and rather swiftly. Since I would be quickly recognized, then I will have the bargaining posiiton fo Preseident, no?

No, they really don't care too much about the actual title, but rather who and how they are partnered.

And should another member be elected, would you "help [your] replacement establish the same good working relationship with juggle." to make accomplish their goals, as you previously promised?

I will provide the same assistance that was given me.



Thanks for an honest answer, at least. What have said strategies been?

I think i've illustrated that over and over here. It takes time and you feed them different things at different rates. There are also different people at Juggle that you go to for different projects. It takes a little time to learn the players at juggle.

How long was it before we could get people from outside the US voting ability?

What I'm saying is it wasn't impossible to get voting ability before you became President. Sure, you've made the process speedier, but it wasn't an impossible task.

Geeze Panda, you wouldn't give me an ounce of credit. Before the process was trying to find someone in the US who had a cell phone that could be texted that wasn't used before. Pleeeze.

This was because you were the first President to have competent owners. No-one could be expected to make these gains under Phil. You aren't working in the same conditions as very past president. You actually have owners who will listen to you and grant you these powers. I have no doubt that if Phil still owned DDO, you woud have gotten none of these, and that if Askbob was elected president, or anyone who sought to use the Presidency for that matter, they would have gotten powers.


Cody became absent. Had he stayed and got in contact with Juggle, would he, or would he not have gained powers?

That's a tough one. They were really reluctant to give me mod ability, and there were all kinds of stipulations that i had to promise to, and the actual mod site password and log in information was given to me in really very strict confidence. I think a lot of Cody, but i don't know if they would have given him that priviledge.


I shall ask again - What role has your cabinet played?
Interesting. So your cabinet takes place in the background rather than in public?

I really don't think that a PM with my advisors is so extrodinary. I woudl expect you to do the same.

And, would you be more inclined to listen to this "inner circle" than DDO at large?

Not at all. I make decisions on what i feel the site would want as a whole, and listen to my advisors for some specific direction. I routinely reach out to various members, and there are probably more who know about me being a mod than you might realize. My PM's are filled with people from all corners of this site, and i have some that i have known for a long time here who i trust a lot. Actually you're one of the people that I've known, and had you not been off the site for so many months, i probably would have reached out to you.


Question for you; you have indicated that you would be tougher on trolls. What criteria do you use in this, and what would you do? Would you ban Izbo? How would you tighten control?

I have indicated that trolling has been hyped if anything. The current levels of trolling, spamming, etc. are a relative low. However, trolling is trolling. I would firstly work with my cabinet to define what exactly IS trolling. Then, I would ask the community what is trolling. Weighing this up, I would retain a definition of trolling, and ask Juggle to consider making it an offense that results in banning/suspension. That would be how I would tackle trolling.

Pretty wishy washy answer.

Would you ban Izbo?

Depends on how trolling is defined. He seems to be troublesome, to what degree I don't know. I will never use my sole judgement to ban someone unless they clearly breach
Depends on what you mean by "sole" judgment. I would say that if there are lots of reports on someone, they are a sex spammer, or are a return troll, you will be less likely to poll the community, rather than just ban them. On the more controversial ones, of course you would need to ask the site as a whole.
Mirza
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11/21/2011 3:29:20 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/21/2011 3:26:14 PM, Zetsubou wrote:
looool, uz lot r bare gettin into it tho

its not like the prezdency is worth anyfin.
Yes it is, and it should be. This site benefits from having a good official. I think innomen is one of the best for the task, and should definitely be elected. He is also currently the most experienced - by far - when it comes to dealing with the problems of the site.
innomen
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11/21/2011 4:08:43 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Just to be clear, you don't have any implementation plan, you don't have any policy on how you would handle trolls, you don't have any idea how you will deal with juggle, nor do you know the players at juggle. You say you will keep everything transparent and will put every move you make in front of the site, and yet you have a party that supports you that has a reputation of being a bit exclusionary and authoritarian. You would regulate mafia and take control of how it works, and you want my help?
Zetsubou
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11/21/2011 4:20:59 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/21/2011 3:29:20 PM, Mirza wrote:
At 11/21/2011 3:26:14 PM, Zetsubou wrote:
looool, uz lot r bare gettin into it tho

its not like the prezdency is worth anyfin.
Yes it is, and it should be. This site benefits from having a good official. I think innomen is one of the best for the task, and should definitely be elected. He is also currently the most experienced - by far - when it comes to dealing with the problems of the site.
He has no formal power, Mirza. Simply the chance to have a dialogue with the Juggle team.

Everyone has the chance do anything the DDO president can.
'sup DDO -- july 2013
I-am-a-panda
Posts: 15,380
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11/22/2011 3:00:46 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/21/2011 3:25:58 PM, innomen wrote:
At 11/21/2011 2:31:18 PM, I-am-a-panda wrote:


At the same time, one should be able to find this information weekly. Have you ever entertained the idea of saying who you've banned and allowing for an appeal, or crating a thread to ask DDO users what they think the most pressing issues facign DDOs are?

Actually i have. Which was why i wanted your answer on Izbo. Specific to Izbo and trolling in general i have asked the site, and went with their wishes, the majority made a plea for his stay. We repeatedly get reports from him and on him, he is a pain in the rear, but the site spoke, and i respected that, but would be willing to poll the site again of course. I have taken the temperature of the site in subtle ways, without making a direct statement of my intention. You may find that secretive, but i find i will get a more candid answer without it having any contigency of following action. That is my perogative and my judgment, you may be free to point that as a difference in how you would be president.

Yet this seems to be in contrast to you banning 13 people without any consultation. Is it just me or does this seem to be just a move for the appearance of it?



Answer me this: If you had not been president, and Askbob had, would you have still been mod? Also, will Juggle allowing you to keep this modding power if you do not return as president?

Yes to both.

And would you consider handing this modding power, or sharing it, with the next President incumbent should it not be you?


Many times during the week i am PMing people to resolve issues, many times they are personal, many times they are of no interest to the site as a whole. I further feel no obligation to make public my every move as President, but on occasion i will put a thread out there to get a feel for the site's feelings on an issue.

I haven't seen these threads, so perhaps a link to a recent one would be helpful.

I'll try and dig up the one on Izbo. It has been quiet, so there hasn't been any need for anything recently.

No rush.






I find these goals fairly vague. While my list is long it will be done slowly , while you have no definitive list. Undefined hopes will get a president nowhere if he can't focus in on specific issues and solutions.

Juggle has readily recognized President(s?) before you, and rather swiftly. Since I would be quickly recognized, then I will have the bargaining posiiton fo Preseident, no?

No, they really don't care too much about the actual title, but rather who and how they are partnered.



And should another member be elected, would you "help [your] replacement establish the same good working relationship with juggle." to make accomplish their goals, as you previously promised?

I will provide the same assistance that was given me.

So you go back on the above statement?




Thanks for an honest answer, at least. What have said strategies been?

I think i've illustrated that over and over here. It takes time and you feed them different things at different rates. There are also different people at Juggle that you go to for different projects. It takes a little time to learn the players at juggle.

And you don't think another individual could provide a fresh approach?


How long was it before we could get people from outside the US voting ability?

What I'm saying is it wasn't impossible to get voting ability before you became President. Sure, you've made the process speedier, but it wasn't an impossible task.

Geeze Panda, you wouldn't give me an ounce of credit. Before the process was trying to find someone in the US who had a cell phone that could be texted that wasn't used before. Pleeeze.

Was it achievable? Yes.


This was because you were the first President to have competent owners. No-one could be expected to make these gains under Phil. You aren't working in the same conditions as very past president. You actually have owners who will listen to you and grant you these powers. I have no doubt that if Phil still owned DDO, you woud have gotten none of these, and that if Askbob was elected president, or anyone who sought to use the Presidency for that matter, they would have gotten powers.


Cody became absent. Had he stayed and got in contact with Juggle, would he, or would he not have gained powers?

That's a tough one. They were really reluctant to give me mod ability, and there were all kinds of stipulations that i had to promise to, and the actual mod site password and log in information was given to me in really very strict confidence. I think a lot of Cody, but i don't know if they would have given him that priviledge.

So you being the President isn't a factor in this, just any president, in your opinion, can 't get mod powers.



I shall ask again - What role has your cabinet played?
Interesting. So your cabinet takes place in the background rather than in public?

I really don't think that a PM with my advisors is so extrodinary. I woudl expect you to do the same.

But I would have them implement their policies publicly.


And, would you be more inclined to listen to this "inner circle" than DDO at large?

Not at all. I make decisions on what i feel the site would want as a whole, and listen to my advisors for some specific direction. I routinely reach out to various members, and there are probably more who know about me being a mod than you might realize. My PM's are filled with people from all corners of this site, and i have some that i have known for a long time here who i trust a lot. Actually you're one of the people that I've known, and had you not been off the site for so many months, i probably would have reached out to you.

But considering the wait members such as my self who you trust, it's still an inner circle, regardless of its size?



Question for you; you have indicated that you would be tougher on trolls. What criteria do you use in this, and what would you do? Would you ban Izbo? How would you tighten control?

I have indicated that trolling has been hyped if anything. The current levels of trolling, spamming, etc. are a relative low. However, trolling is trolling. I would firstly work with my cabinet to define what exactly IS trolling. Then, I would ask the community what is trolling. Weighing this up, I would retain a definition of trolling, and ask Juggle to consider making it an offense that results in banning/suspension. That would be how I would tackle trolling.

Pretty wishy washy answer.

And your solution is?


Would you ban Izbo?

Depends on how trolling is defined. He seems to be troublesome, to what degree I don't know. I will never use my sole judgement to ban someone unless they clearly breach
Depends on what you mean by "sole" judgment. I would say that if there are lots of reports on someone, they are a sex spammer, or are a return troll, you will be less likely to poll the community, rather than just ban them. On the more controversial ones, of course you would need to ask the site as a whole.

But you only have done that rather recently with Izbo?

Also, how do you respond to allegations of vote bombing of my former VP candidate?
Pizza. I have enormous respect for Pizza.
innomen
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11/22/2011 3:48:34 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/22/2011 3:00:46 PM, I-am-a-panda wrote:

Yet this seems to be in contrast to you banning 13 people without any consultation. Is it just me or does this seem to be just a move for the appearance of it?

Actually it was a subtle suggestion from juggle after looking at the IP report. They were all duplicate accounts, and in these cases they were pretty redundant, so i contacted one of the user ID's told them they could keep that one, and then removed all the redundant ones. I did confer with someone that i was doing it, but no, i didn't bring it to the site. Why do you think that is necessary? How would you go about it? Would you put before the site the IP report everyday, and would you call people out publicly? Not sure what you mean by "the appearance of it", do you think i am being deceptive?



Answer me this: If you had not been president, and Askbob had, would you have still been mod? Also, will Juggle allowing you to keep this modding power if you do not return as president?

Yes to both.

And would you consider handing this modding power, or sharing it, with the next President incumbent should it not be you?

It doesn't work that way. Juggle makes the determination and they provide the necessary password and log in to the admin site for DDO. I don't just say, here you go - go ahead and start banning and editing. I am not allowed to share or give my password and log in information to anyone, and Juggle made that REALLY clear. Would you be loose with that priviledge and hand it over to other people?

I haven't seen these threads, so perhaps a link to a recent one would be helpful.

I'll try and dig up the one on Izbo. It has been quiet, so there hasn't been any need for anything recently.

No rush.

I just dug up this one up for the other thread: http://www.debate.org...


I will provide the same assistance that was given me.

So you go back on the above statement?

Which one?


And you don't think another individual could provide a fresh approach?

Perhaps, if you win we'll all find out then won't we? Are you really confident that you can improve on my approach and accomplish more than i have? Again this is what the election is about, and you feel you can present yourself and your ideas better, and partner better with Juggle than i can. I understand this, i get it.

How long was it before we could get people from outside the US voting ability?


Geeze Panda, you wouldn't give me an ounce of credit. Before the process was trying to find someone in the US who had a cell phone that could be texted that wasn't used before. Pleeeze.

Was it achievable? Yes.

For some. i think i got Brian and C_N's voting ability, and Fever's too. Would you go back to the old way and tell them to try and find an American who might help them out? That's the direction you'd go? Backwards?


.

So you being the President isn't a factor in this, just any president, in your opinion, can 't get mod powers.

That is not only my opinion, but a fact.


I shall ask again - What role has your cabinet played?
Interesting. So your cabinet takes place in the background rather than in public?

I really don't think that a PM with my advisors is so extrodinary. I woudl expect you to do the same.

But I would have them implement their policies publicly.

What policy, it's mostly advice on handling individual issues, and problems with people here. You say you would, but trust me, you wouldn't. No one would care after a while, and it would be a lot more work than you'd be willing to do. I honestly don't think you'd be willing to do the work i do now, and things would revert backwards like you mention in getting voting ablities for people.

And, would you be more inclined to listen to this "inner circle" than DDO at large?


But considering the wait members such as my self who you trust, it's still an inner circle, regardless of its size?

And you wouldn't have a PM going with your advisors? You'd just run to the site and tell them every report that comes over, and then wait for what's to be done? This morning there were 8 reports, so you would take each one, and put them before the site, eliminating any privacy and anonymity of those reporting, and you would just wait for the site to give you direction? The point of being elected president is that you are trusted to take care of these things without running to the site for every little thing. You are trusted with privacy, and actually some very personal information on who they are. I personally wouldn't want my reports put up for the whole site to see every time i make one. I know askbob would love to have seen all the reports against him.


Pretty wishy washy answer.

And your solution is?

My decisions always come down to harm, harm to the site, harm to individuals, and harm to Juggle's best interest. If someone has a duplicate account, but it's really harmless like Timspin and socialpinko, i leave it alone, but if we see people debating
themselves or voting on their own debates, they must go. Harm is the mitigating factor in action taken by me.

Would you ban Izbo?

Depends on how trolling is defined. He seems to be troublesome, to what degree I don't know. I will never use my sole judgement to ban someone unless they clearly breach
Depends on what you mean by "sole" judgment. I would say that if there are lots of reports on someone, they are a sex spammer, or are a return troll, you will be less likely to poll the community, rather than just ban them. On the more controversial ones, of course you would need to ask the site as a whole.

But you only have done that rather recently with Izbo?

Well, he's the only one that has been a major public nuisance in the last few months.

Also, how do you respond to allegations of vote bombing of my former VP candidate?

Blue and i have put this behind us. I felt pretty terrible about the whole thing, but he and i would like to just forget it.
jharry
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11/22/2011 5:26:36 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Mr. Panda. Do you think you can stay online long enough to reply more than once a day? At this rate it will be 2012 before we get anywhere with this thread.

Thanks.
In nomine Patris, et Filii, et Spiritus Sancti. Amen
I-am-a-panda
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11/23/2011 2:48:09 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/22/2011 3:48:34 PM, innomen wrote:
At 11/22/2011 3:00:46 PM, I-am-a-panda wrote:

Yet this seems to be in contrast to you banning 13 people without any consultation. Is it just me or does this seem to be just a move for the appearance of it?

Actually it was a subtle suggestion from juggle after looking at the IP report. They were all duplicate accounts, and in these cases they were pretty redundant, so i contacted one of the user ID's told them they could keep that one, and then removed all the redundant ones. I did confer with someone that i was doing it, but no, i didn't bring it to the site. Why do you think that is necessary? How would you go about it? Would you put before the site the IP report everyday, and would you call people out publicly? Not sure what you mean by "the appearance of it", do you think i am being deceptive?

If I were President, I would announce who was banned, why, and allow fore it to be appealed. The Mongeese brothers were believed to be duplicate accounts at one point and banned for it wrongly. An appeal system for any banning is necessary.

And it just struck me as suspicious that the only community discussion you've had of a banning cam before an election. Of coruse it seems the Izbo question was asked some time ago so that's more-less redundant.




Answer me this: If you had not been president, and Askbob had, would you have still been mod? Also, will Juggle allowing you to keep this modding power if you do not return as president?

Yes to both.

And would you consider handing this modding power, or sharing it, with the next President incumbent should it not be you?

It doesn't work that way. Juggle makes the determination and they provide the necessary password and log in to the admin site for DDO. I don't just say, here you go - go ahead and start banning and editing. I am not allowed to share or give my password and log in information to anyone, and Juggle made that REALLY clear. Would you be loose with that priviledge and hand it over to other people?

The modding power seems to be a Presidential perk. I would believe in at the very least encouraging Juggle to grant it to the successive President.


I haven't seen these threads, so perhaps a link to a recent one would be helpful.

I'll try and dig up the one on Izbo. It has been quiet, so there hasn't been any need for anything recently.

No rush.

I just dug up this one up for the other thread: http://www.debate.org...

Fair enough.



I will provide the same assistance that was given me.

So you go back on the above statement?

Which one?

"help his replacement establish the same good working relationship with juggle."



And you don't think another individual could provide a fresh approach?

Perhaps, if you win we'll all find out then won't we? Are you really confident that you can improve on my approach and accomplish more than i have? Again this is what the election is about, and you feel you can present yourself and your ideas better, and partner better with Juggle than i can. I understand this, i get it.

I'm confident in that yes.


How long was it before we could get people from outside the US voting ability?


Geeze Panda, you wouldn't give me an ounce of credit. Before the process was trying to find someone in the US who had a cell phone that could be texted that wasn't used before. Pleeeze.

Was it achievable? Yes.

For some. i think i got Brian and C_N's voting ability, and Fever's too. Would you go back to the old way and tell them to try and find an American who might help them out? That's the direction you'd go? Backwards?

I'd still give them voting rights, obviously. Obviously thew system is easier. But my sole point is that it was possible to get voting ability beforehand.



.

So you being the President isn't a factor in this, just any president, in your opinion, can 't get mod powers.

That is not only my opinion, but a fact.

And would you agree with this position?



I shall ask again - What role has your cabinet played?
Interesting. So your cabinet takes place in the background rather than in public?

I really don't think that a PM with my advisors is so extrodinary. I woudl expect you to do the same.

But I would have them implement their policies publicly.

What policy, it's mostly advice on handling individual issues, and problems with people here. You say you would, but trust me, you wouldn't. No one would care after a while, and it would be a lot more work than you'd be willing to do. I honestly don't think you'd be willing to do the work i do now, and things would revert backwards like you mention in getting voting ablities for people.

And, would you be more inclined to listen to this "inner circle" than DDO at large?


But considering the wait members such as my self who you trust, it's still an inner circle, regardless of its size?

And you wouldn't have a PM going with your advisors? You'd just run to the site and tell them every report that comes over, and then wait for what's to be done? This morning there were 8 reports, so you would take each one, and put them before the site, eliminating any privacy and anonymity of those reporting, and you would just wait for the site to give you direction? The point of being elected president is that you are trusted to take care of these things without running to the site for every little thing. You are trusted with privacy, and actually some very personal information on who they are. I personally wouldn't want my reports put up for the whole site to see every time i make one. I know askbob would love to have seen all the reports against him.

I'd run them before my cabinet, get their view, and within a few days at most announce them to the public. I understand you have executive power, but exercising that in a way which the community does not approve of is betraying the power you're given. Minor reports such as the re-emergence of a past troll/spammer don't need to be announced unless its frequent. Define what you mean by report.



Pretty wishy washy answer.

And your solution is?

My decisions always come down to harm, harm to the site, harm to individuals, and harm to Juggle's best interest. If someone has a duplicate account, but it's really harmless like Timspin and socialpinko, i leave it alone, but if we see people debating
themselves or voting on their own debates, they must go. Harm is the mitigating factor in action taken by me.

So if someone makes a remark about another individual on the site, and they're hurt" by this, they deserve some form of punishment?



Depends on what you mean by "sole" judgment. I would say that if there are lots of reports on someone, they are a sex spammer, or are a return troll, you will be less likely to poll the community, rather than just ban them. On the more controversial ones, of course you would need to ask the site as a whole.

But you only have done that rather recently with Izbo?

Well, he's the only one that has been a major public nuisance in the last few months.

And Askbob?


Also, how do you respond to allegations of vote bombing of my former VP candidate?

Blue and i have put this behind us. I felt pretty terrible about the whole thing, but he and i would like to just forget it.

I see that now. But one of your advisers, and staunch supporters Mirza, seemed to be knee deep in maintain
Pizza. I have enormous respect for Pizza.
innomen
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11/23/2011 3:59:11 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/23/2011 2:48:09 PM, I-am-a-panda wrote:

If I were President, I would announce who was banned, why, and allow fore it to be appealed. The Mongeese brothers were believed to be duplicate accounts at one point and banned for it wrongly. An appeal system for any banning is necessary.

You say that, but you wouldn't do it. You might start out, and gain a little drama, but the work wouldn't be something you'd do. You're hardly here for an hour or two a day, trust me, you'd stop doing it after a week.

And it just struck me as suspicious that the only community discussion you've had of a banning cam before an election. Of coruse it seems the Izbo question was asked some time ago so that's more-less redundant.

He was the only recent notable. Obvious trolls like Muff don't require a lot of decision making, you just ban them. The multi's i ban, but i do have a process where i send them a PM on one account telling them they're losing their other accounts. On all of these you would create a public forum for them? Meh, i guesss, i don't see the real value in it. Some obvious vote bombers get banned too, especially when we find they have another account.



The modding power seems to be a Presidential perk. I would believe in at the very least encouraging Juggle to grant it to the successive President.

Well then good luck to you.

I just dug up this one up for the other thread: http://www.debate.org...

Fair enough.
Which one?

"help his replacement establish the same good working relationship with juggle."

Did i say that? Hmmm, must have been in a good mood. I don't see the need for my help with your fresh approach, it seems you are capable of establishing what i have done and more, no?

Perhaps, if you win we'll all find out then won't we? Are you really confident that you can improve on my approach and accomplish more than i have? Again this is what the election is about, and you feel you can present yourself and your ideas better, and partner better with Juggle than i can. I understand this, i get it.

I'm confident in that yes.

Again, good luck with that.

For some. i think i got Brian and C_N's voting ability, and Fever's too. Would you go back to the old way and tell them to try and find an American who might help them out? That's the direction you'd go? Backwards?

I'd still give them voting rights, obviously. Obviously thew system is easier. But my sole point is that it was possible to get voting ability beforehand.

Silly point that misses mine.


.

So you being the President isn't a factor in this, just any president, in your opinion, can 't get mod powers.

That is not only my opinion, but a fact.

And would you agree with this position?

Somewhat yes. Juggle's values are really the prevailing ones that we have to live by, it's their site that they paid for. They should be the one's who make the determination of who has access to their admin site, not the members here by vote, we just have a different vested interest in this site than we do. They take their liability seriously, and i agree with that point of view. They're running a business, and they don't necessarily have the same objectives as we do.


I shall ask again - What role has your cabinet played?
Interesting. So your cabinet takes place in the background rather than in public?

I really don't think that a PM with my advisors is so extrodinary. I woudl expect you to do the same.

But I would have them implement their policies publicly.

What policy, it's mostly advice on handling individual issues, and problems with people here. You say you would, but trust me, you wouldn't. No one would care after a while, and it would be a lot more work than you'd be willing to do. I honestly don't think you'd be willing to do the work i do now, and things would revert backwards like you mention in getting voting ablities for people.


I'd run them before my cabinet, get their view, and within a few days at most announce them to the public. I understand you have executive power, but exercising that in a way which the community does not approve of is betraying the power you're given. Minor reports such as the re-emergence of a past troll/spammer don't need to be announced unless its frequent. Define what you mean by report.


Report, is when you hit that little red flag, and it sends a "report" about something someone is complaining about. Trust me, you just would never take the time to do what you claim you would do. It isn't uncommon to get 28 reports in one morning, and you're telling me that you will deal with each one of them in a public process, and wait for there to be a complete concensus? Panda, you have a lot to learn about managing things, you are elected to make these decisions because they trust you. It is not conceivable to do what you portray, and it is not prudent at many levels. I know that i were to send up a report, i wouldn't want it turned into some public project requiring site deliberation. We are elected for our ability to make these sorts of judgments, and we need to learn how to manage the issues efficiently, effectively, and thoroughly. I'm pretty proud of the efforts I've made in this area.


So if someone makes a remark about another individual on the site, and they're hurt" by this, they deserve some form of punishment?

Often i just delete the comment, as requested. The user is usually satisfied, and it doesn't create unnecessary drama. I expect some level of insulting to go on here, and i will often reach out to users and explain to them that they need to have a little bit thicker skin. I honestly do most of my work by reaching out to people individually rather than banning them outright. I've also recently explored the punishment of removing voting priviledges to those who vote bomb. Seems a pretty good solution.


Depends on what you mean by "sole" judgment. I would say that if there are lots of reports on someone, they are a sex spammer, or are a return troll, you will be less likely to poll the community, rather than just ban them. On the more controversial ones, of course you would need to ask the site as a whole.


But you only have done that rather recently with Izbo?

Well, he's the only one that has been a major public nuisance in the last few months.

And Askbob?

Askbob was taken out of my hands, and his banning was done by Juggle. I can't really give you very specific information that Juggle shared with me, nor do i think that askbob would want that done here either. He is a liability to them, and they made it abundantly clear that he is not to be on this site.

Not sure if i lost any of your stuff with my character limits by accident.

Would you disregard Juggle's wishes? There is a balance you need to strike as both advocate of the members here, and a team member of sorts of juggle. It seems that you would create an adversarial relationship with Juggle. Hmmm. Yeah not my approach at all, but we'll see how that would work for you.
tvellalott
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11/23/2011 5:05:57 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Hello. I don't have much to say. But I think it would be good to have some holy santos brought to the website...to guard the forums and to bring us good luck. El Santo Niño de Atocha is a good one. My Aunt Concha has seen him.

And... and I'd like to see more of that. If you vote for innomen and I in the upcoming election, all of your wildest dreams will come true. Thank you.
"Caitlyn Jenner is an incredibly brave and stunningly beautiful woman."

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Linkish1O2
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4/1/2014 2:42:02 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Oh oh me me.
"I am a mystery and to unlock the mystery at my core, one must simply embrace slendermans hug with no fear."- me

"I hearby declare myself a phantom in the darkness."-me