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Voting Along Political Lines

royalpaladin
Posts: 22,357
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12/6/2011 9:35:57 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
I have noticed that many individuals do not actually vote on the merits of the arguments; rather, they tend to vote for the position that supports their political beliefs.

Case in Point: http://www.debate.org...

Granted, neither the Instigator nor the Challenger presented particularly compelling cases, but the Con's arguments were literally nonsensical ("they can be gay with the enemy") and irrelevant ("it is against MY religion.")

Perhaps we should institute vote counters in case members vote along their political lines instead of on the merit of the arguments. It is unfair for users to work hard to craft excellent arguments and be judged solely on political ideas instead of on the merits of the argument.

Please discuss.
Lordknukle
Posts: 12,788
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12/6/2011 11:13:50 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Simply because somebody votes along their political lines, does not constitute the fact that you believe that that person had better arguments.

Are you trying to say that people can't vote on issues which they have a personal opinion on?
"Easy is the descent to Avernus, for the door to the Underworld lies upon both day and night. But to retrace your steps and return to the breezes above- that's the task, that's the toil."
royalpaladin
Posts: 22,357
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12/6/2011 11:25:28 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/6/2011 11:13:50 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
Simply because somebody votes along their political lines, does not constitute the fact that you believe that that person had better arguments.

Are you trying to say that people can't vote on issues which they have a personal opinion on?

You are free to vote on such issues. However, you must vote on the merits of the argument, and not based on your political beliefs.
16kadams
Posts: 10,497
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12/6/2011 11:34:59 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/6/2011 9:35:57 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
I have noticed that many individuals do not actually vote on the merits of the arguments; rather, they tend to vote for the position that supports their political beliefs.

Case in Point: http://www.debate.org...

Granted, neither the Instigator nor the Challenger presented particularly compelling cases, but the Con's arguments were literally nonsensical ("they can be gay with the enemy") and irrelevant ("it is against MY religion.")

Perhaps we should institute vote counters in case members vote along their political lines instead of on the merit of the arguments. It is unfair for users to work hard to craft excellent arguments and be judged solely on political ideas instead of on the merits of the argument.

Please discuss.

3
my dad, a libertarian votes republican, and voted for Hillary in 0'7, but voted McCain in the main election. But overall that statement is correct. I bet over half of people vote only because of the party lines. The indpendants are the ones that don't do that. My mom actually has never voted democrat, her mother never republican, by grandpa used to be republican, the switched. So yes you are correct.
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https://rekonomics.wordpress.com...
"A trend is a trend, but the question is, will it bend? Will it alter its course through some unforeseen force and come to a premature end?" -- Alec Cairncross
16kadams
Posts: 10,497
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12/6/2011 11:36:35 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/6/2011 9:35:57 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
I have noticed that many individuals do not actually vote on the merits of the arguments; rather, they tend to vote for the position that supports their political beliefs.

Case in Point: http://www.debate.org...

Granted, neither the Instigator nor the Challenger presented particularly compelling cases, but the Con's arguments were literally nonsensical ("they can be gay with the enemy") and irrelevant ("it is against MY religion.")

Perhaps we should institute vote counters in case members vote along their political lines instead of on the merit of the arguments. It is unfair for users to work hard to craft excellent arguments and be judged solely on political ideas instead of on the merits of the argument.

Please discuss.

Bu knuckle is right, some people that do vote on party lines do research and like their Canaanite better, I have done that and I cant even vote. I am doing it now, all of the republicans except maybe Cain and huntsman are better than obama.
https://www.youtube.com...
https://rekonomics.wordpress.com...
"A trend is a trend, but the question is, will it bend? Will it alter its course through some unforeseen force and come to a premature end?" -- Alec Cairncross
LiberalHoyaLawya
Posts: 17
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12/7/2011 12:20:27 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
"Case in Point: http://www.debate.org... "

I read that debate too, and agree that the outcome is ridiculous. Issue-based voting undermines the credibility of a DEBATE website.

Since joining, I have also noticed that this site is flooded with conservative teenagers from the Midwest - that might explain the outcome of the debate listed above. Perhaps debate.org could implement some kind of a timed civics test before granting voting privileges to morons.
royalpaladin
Posts: 22,357
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12/7/2011 12:23:19 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/7/2011 12:20:27 AM, LiberalHoyaLawya wrote:
"Case in Point: http://www.debate.org... "

I read that debate too, and agree that the outcome is ridiculous. Issue-based voting undermines the credibility of a DEBATE website.

Since joining, I have also noticed that this site is flooded with conservative teenagers from the Midwest - that might explain the outcome of the debate listed above. Perhaps debate.org could implement some kind of a timed civics test before granting voting privileges to morons.

That sounds completely fair to me. I advocate that this policy be implemented immediately.
16kadams
Posts: 10,497
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12/7/2011 12:29:52 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/7/2011 12:20:27 AM, LiberalHoyaLawya wrote:
"Case in Point: http://www.debate.org... "

I read that debate too, and agree that the outcome is ridiculous. Issue-based voting undermines the credibility of a DEBATE website.

Since joining, I have also noticed that this site is flooded with conservative teenagers from the Midwest - that might explain the outcome of the debate listed above. Perhaps debate.org could implement some kind of a timed civics test before granting voting privileges to morons.

Thanks for the insult... I am quite educated you know. But a civics test is a good idea, the problem is what would be fair questions. But I agree. One must score over 80% to pass.

Ps: I'm doing this on my phone , it work pretty well, just a but leggy at ted.
https://www.youtube.com...
https://rekonomics.wordpress.com...
"A trend is a trend, but the question is, will it bend? Will it alter its course through some unforeseen force and come to a premature end?" -- Alec Cairncross
16kadams
Posts: 10,497
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12/7/2011 12:32:08 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
I've seen that debate, pro should have won, and thats coming from a staunch conservative.
https://www.youtube.com...
https://rekonomics.wordpress.com...
"A trend is a trend, but the question is, will it bend? Will it alter its course through some unforeseen force and come to a premature end?" -- Alec Cairncross
Lordknukle
Posts: 12,788
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12/7/2011 8:06:24 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
Wether you like it or not, everybody has a political right to vote. I don't see why it shouldn't extend to DDO.

If not, then you are practicing elitism. I have nothing personally against elitism, but a lot of people don't like it.
"Easy is the descent to Avernus, for the door to the Underworld lies upon both day and night. But to retrace your steps and return to the breezes above- that's the task, that's the toil."
drafterman
Posts: 18,870
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12/7/2011 8:08:18 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/6/2011 9:35:57 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
I have noticed that many individuals do not actually vote on the merits of the arguments; rather, they tend to vote for the position that supports their political beliefs.

Case in Point: http://www.debate.org...

Granted, neither the Instigator nor the Challenger presented particularly compelling cases, but the Con's arguments were literally nonsensical ("they can be gay with the enemy") and irrelevant ("it is against MY religion.")

Perhaps we should institute vote counters in case members vote along their political lines instead of on the merit of the arguments. It is unfair for users to work hard to craft excellent arguments and be judged solely on political ideas instead of on the merits of the argument.

Please discuss.

If it was possible to objectively and quantitatively measure and judge a debate, we wouldn't need votes, would we?
royalpaladin
Posts: 22,357
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12/7/2011 9:11:48 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/7/2011 8:08:18 AM, drafterman wrote:
At 12/6/2011 9:35:57 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
I have noticed that many individuals do not actually vote on the merits of the arguments; rather, they tend to vote for the position that supports their political beliefs.

Case in Point: http://www.debate.org...

Granted, neither the Instigator nor the Challenger presented particularly compelling cases, but the Con's arguments were literally nonsensical ("they can be gay with the enemy") and irrelevant ("it is against MY religion.")

Perhaps we should institute vote counters in case members vote along their political lines instead of on the merit of the arguments. It is unfair for users to work hard to craft excellent arguments and be judged solely on political ideas instead of on the merits of the argument.

Please discuss.

If it was possible to objectively and quantitatively measure and judge a debate, we wouldn't need votes, would we?

I never said that the voting system would be objective if we barred voting solely on the political ideas behind the argument. I simply said that we should force people to vote on an argument's merit rather than on their political views. Obviously people can have different opinions about what constitutes an effective argument, but it is not fair to force people to suffer because some biased fool wishes to vote for his political views. The function of this site is to promote discussion and the expansion of knowledge, and not to browbeat non-conservatives.
16kadams
Posts: 10,497
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12/7/2011 9:22:30 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
There are only slightly more conservatives on this site, but if you add on progressives, socialists, and in the largest extreme communism, than there are more liberals. We dont brown beat liberals, just disagree.
L
https://www.youtube.com...
https://rekonomics.wordpress.com...
"A trend is a trend, but the question is, will it bend? Will it alter its course through some unforeseen force and come to a premature end?" -- Alec Cairncross
royalpaladin
Posts: 22,357
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12/7/2011 9:26:18 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/7/2011 9:22:30 AM, 16kadams wrote:
There are only slightly more conservatives on this site, but if you add on progressives, socialists, and in the largest extreme communism, than there are more liberals. We dont brown beat liberals, just disagree.
L

Explain the outcome of that debate.
Danielle
Posts: 21,330
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12/7/2011 9:41:27 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
Yes, that does seem to be the case.

http://www.debate.org...

That's a recent one of mine. I also love how nobody gave me points for Conduct or Spelling/Grammar, when my opponent was blatantly rude or unprofessional at various points. He also exercised completely poor s/g in comparison to mine. It seems people just automatically voted him points for "Arguments," ignoring the other categories (and they happened to be Conservative voters). Also, I found it funny that the RFD included "I just thought Con had better points." Well that certainly eliminates the reason from the Reason for Decision, now dunnit? Whatevs :)
President of DDO
drafterman
Posts: 18,870
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12/7/2011 9:48:53 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/7/2011 9:11:48 AM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 12/7/2011 8:08:18 AM, drafterman wrote:
At 12/6/2011 9:35:57 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
I have noticed that many individuals do not actually vote on the merits of the arguments; rather, they tend to vote for the position that supports their political beliefs.

Case in Point: http://www.debate.org...

Granted, neither the Instigator nor the Challenger presented particularly compelling cases, but the Con's arguments were literally nonsensical ("they can be gay with the enemy") and irrelevant ("it is against MY religion.")

Perhaps we should institute vote counters in case members vote along their political lines instead of on the merit of the arguments. It is unfair for users to work hard to craft excellent arguments and be judged solely on political ideas instead of on the merits of the argument.

Please discuss.

If it was possible to objectively and quantitatively measure and judge a debate, we wouldn't need votes, would we?

I never said that the voting system would be objective if we barred voting solely on the political ideas behind the argument. I simply said that we should force people to vote on an argument's merit rather than on their political views. Obviously people can have different opinions about what constitutes an effective argument, but it is not fair to force people to suffer because some biased fool wishes to vote for his political views. The function of this site is to promote discussion and the expansion of knowledge, and not to browbeat non-conservatives.

If people can disagree on what constitutes an effective argument, then how can you force people to vote accorinding to some measure of merit?
Chrysippus
Posts: 2,173
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12/7/2011 9:50:19 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
The problem is twofold:
One, there is no way to force people to vote in an unbiased manner short of actually casting their votes for them. No test or rule or gimmick will get rid of bias; it is inherent in our reasoning. The best any of us can do is to recognize it and try to judge what is presented to us, not what we know. Many debaters here do this; they will tell you that they agreed with one side, but the other side presented the superior argument and got their vote.

Two; Any test you come up with to separate between biased and biased voters will be inherently biased; it will only weed out those voters who deviate from the personal philosophy of the test maker. There isn't a universal standard of fair to appeal to; only personal ones.

The long and the short of it is life isn't fair. Some debates will be voted on y people who refuse to recognize their own biases, and will not vote for the person who by all accounts should have won. They vote based on what they believe, no on the merits of the arguments presented; and other than raising a stink about it in the forums and educating people on their voterly duties, there isn't much to be done about it.

If you see a debate being voted into oblivion by people voting on their own beliefs, not the debate itself, let some of us older debaters know. You can trust us to vote as fairly as we are able.
Cavete mea inexorabilis legiones mimus!