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A list of demands

scissorhands7
Posts: 480
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10/20/2008 8:59:19 PM
Posted: 8 years ago
1. You shouldn't be able to see who is winning or losing until after you vote this will remove voting bias

2. You should have to participated in at least 3 debates to vote

3. You must post a reason for every point in your vote

4. Voters should be visible to the public

5. Fake Account votes should be flagged by a sub group of monitors

6. This sub group of mods should be made by the moderators and should consist of only very skilled debaters (or the regular mods should do this)

7. An ethics guide and standard debate format should be presented to all new debaters

8. A test should be undergone for all new participants on the ethics guide and standard debate format

9. Comments should be able to be flagged for inappropriate conduct.
And action should actually be taken about those comments.

10. The Reason for decision column should be separate from comments

11. You should be able to block a user from commenting on your debates and voting on your debates.

12. The Forum Topics should be taken down

13. You should be restricted to posting 3 comments at the most on debates

14. Please add more to this list and critique it.
I rock peas on my head, but don't call me a peahead, bees on my head but dont call me a beehead, bruce lees on my head but dont call me a lee head...
I hang out with an apple who loves self loathing....
Its my show I'm andy milonakis.
PoeJoe
Posts: 3,822
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10/20/2008 9:27:16 PM
Posted: 8 years ago
I agree that there needs to be major change on this site. I even agree with the ideology behind your wanting to make these changes. However, I think many of your points are poorly thought out.

I won't go point by point -- because there are other much more qualified members who can do so better -- but I'll note a few things that bug me exceptionally.

The elite members thing. Who decides who is qualified? Isn't this just too easily abused? What are the specifics? How will this be implemented? Too many practical problems.

Eight will destroy the progress of debate.org. It will turn away many would-be great members/debaters. And we must remember, everyone doesn't start out a great debater on this website. My first debates are shameful, but I've grown. I can't imagine my staying here had there been a mandatory test.

Eleven will be abused to hell. Disallowing people to vote and comment is borderline censorship. I understand your reasoning behind this point -- to let users ban vote bombers -- but it's just not practical.
Television Rot: http://tvrot.com...
scissorhands7
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10/20/2008 10:00:33 PM
Posted: 8 years ago
I definetly realize a lot of them are poorly thought out. I just would like people to begin brainstorming a way to get out of this mess.

The whole "elite members thing"

I just meant that obviously if the moderators are having a hard time handling all these fake accounts, I'm sure members with level heads would be able to assist them.
I rock peas on my head, but don't call me a peahead, bees on my head but dont call me a beehead, bruce lees on my head but dont call me a lee head...
I hang out with an apple who loves self loathing....
Its my show I'm andy milonakis.
scissorhands7
Posts: 480
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10/20/2008 10:02:04 PM
Posted: 8 years ago
The mandatory test, I just meant being a test on the introductory page on ethics and rules of a debate. Not something that requires knowledge beforehands. In other words just an easy test to make sure people actually read the code of conduct and dont randomly click I agree.
I rock peas on my head, but don't call me a peahead, bees on my head but dont call me a beehead, bruce lees on my head but dont call me a lee head...
I hang out with an apple who loves self loathing....
Its my show I'm andy milonakis.
burningpuppies101
Posts: 1,268
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10/20/2008 10:10:53 PM
Posted: 8 years ago
i'm with poejoe on most of it. however, I don't think that the one about 3 comments will work out too well. some people like to talk about each other's debates on the debates, referencing.... and so on....
Omnes te moriturum amant 

http://www.debate.org...
scissorhands7
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10/21/2008 4:40:23 AM
Posted: 8 years ago
This was more or less a way to prevent trolling. A favorite past time of joshandr30 was to troll on debates. This will prevent the Kleptin v Josh situations even though it was really josh's fault.

3 comments is sufficient for a conversation on the topic. Any more can be sent in a personal message.
I rock peas on my head, but don't call me a peahead, bees on my head but dont call me a beehead, bruce lees on my head but dont call me a lee head...
I hang out with an apple who loves self loathing....
Its my show I'm andy milonakis.
Kleptin
Posts: 5,095
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10/21/2008 4:01:52 PM
Posted: 8 years ago
1. All debates should have a time limit, and winner/loser should only be visible after that time limit. People can vote in order to see the information, then change their votes under your suggestion.

2. I believe you should have won 3 and participated in at least 5. Creating 3 debates is hard to catch. Creating several accounts to debate each other to farm wins is easy to catch.

3. Agreed.

4. Voters should be visible to the public only upon request of either debater, not the other voters.

5. No, too much work for the site. The things above would make this unnecessary.

6. No, no elite group.

7. Agreed

8. No, that would detract new debaters or casual debaters.

9. Agreed.

10. Agreed. Those reasons should be visible only to the debaters.

11. Probably THE most important thing here. Yes, fully, FULLY agreed.

12. No, why?

13. No, why? Some of them can lead to lengthy discussions. Besides, flagging inappropriate comments will fix any problems here.

*****

To shorten and condense

A. Limits on newly opened accounts (Debate&Win requirements)
B. Mandatory explanations of voting and system of tracking down voters.
C. Ability to block people from voting/commenting on your debates.

The implementation of just these will be sufficient.
: At 5/2/2010 2:43:54 PM, innomen wrote:
It isn't about finding a theory, philosophy or doctrine and thinking it's the answer, but a practical application of one's experiences that is the answer.

: At 10/28/2010 2:40:07 PM, jharry wrote: I have already been given the greatest Gift that anyone could ever hope for [Life], I would consider myself selfish if I expected anything more.
Logical-Master
Posts: 2,538
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10/21/2008 4:15:31 PM
Posted: 8 years ago
Actually, there are more which I disagree, but I feel the problems with those have already been expressed.

In addition to those though, I believe that this site should implement an "ignore list" feature. That way, if someone if spamming a thread or a comment section, the users who are annoyed by this user can simply placed the aforementioned user on *ignore" and be blocked from seeing this users post. This will insure that trolls get less attention and will insure that the moderater has less reports to sort through.
scissorhands7
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10/21/2008 4:20:26 PM
Posted: 8 years ago
14. Members should not be able to change their vote

2. Point conceded and improved upon in my opinion

3. Point still stands

4. Point conceded and improved upon in my opinion

5. Point conceded

6. Point conceded

15. The moderators should hire or find more help (these people not being debaters) to catch fake accounts more quickly.

7. Point stands

8. Point conceded

16. The mods should make a mandatory video that must be viewed before creating a name. This video will explain the code of conduct in a condensed form and also provide a limited explanation of how to debate properly and how to show good etiquette. This video should be interesting and no longer than 4 minutes.

9. Point Stands

10 Point stands - Agreed to and improved upon

11. Points stands and is very much suppported

12. In my opinion the forum topic and the comments have led explicitly to the situation we are in now. I would like to amend this point to having the forums stay, but have them be much more strictly regulated in terms of manners and trolling.

13. These legendary discussions have led to the current mess we are in now. It leads to way too much trolling and these discussions should take place in personal messages rather than on the debate itself. This would help reduce trolling from members spamming the debates.

I have flagged tons and tons of joshandr30's spam however the moderators have done nothing about it. Apparently they are much to busy for this and I understand. So limiting 3 comments per user will greatly reduce spamming and will provide (in my opinion) for a more focused atmosphere on the debates themselves than on heated battles where trolling occurs.
I rock peas on my head, but don't call me a peahead, bees on my head but dont call me a beehead, bruce lees on my head but dont call me a lee head...
I hang out with an apple who loves self loathing....
Its my show I'm andy milonakis.
Kleptin
Posts: 5,095
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10/21/2008 4:22:23 PM
Posted: 8 years ago
I didn't think about the potential of abuse for #11, but after LM brought it up, I have to say I agree.

If there is at least some record of who voted in what way, and *when*, it should be enough to prevent vote bombing. I'm just not sure when it should be available to the debaters.
: At 5/2/2010 2:43:54 PM, innomen wrote:
It isn't about finding a theory, philosophy or doctrine and thinking it's the answer, but a practical application of one's experiences that is the answer.

: At 10/28/2010 2:40:07 PM, jharry wrote: I have already been given the greatest Gift that anyone could ever hope for [Life], I would consider myself selfish if I expected anything more.
scissorhands7
Posts: 480
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10/21/2008 4:27:52 PM
Posted: 8 years ago
11. Point contested to a degree and improved. A debater should only be allowed to limit 4 members from voting/commenting on their debate topics. In the case of fake accounts, this will prevent vote bombers from voting/erase their votes until the mods have caught them and deleted them whereby giving the user back 1 more person from every account eliminated.

Example: Joshandr30 creates 3 accounts and proceeds to vote bomb me. I block his three accounts and have 1 limit left. Joshandr30 makes another fake account. I block it. The mods find and delete 2 of joshandr30's fake accounts. I now have a limit of 2 again instead of 0.
I rock peas on my head, but don't call me a peahead, bees on my head but dont call me a beehead, bruce lees on my head but dont call me a lee head...
I hang out with an apple who loves self loathing....
Its my show I'm andy milonakis.
scissorhands7
Posts: 480
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10/21/2008 4:29:27 PM
Posted: 8 years ago
17. Moderators should and must delete all votes from accounts that have been deleted.
I rock peas on my head, but don't call me a peahead, bees on my head but dont call me a beehead, bruce lees on my head but dont call me a lee head...
I hang out with an apple who loves self loathing....
Its my show I'm andy milonakis.
LR4N6FTW4EVA
Posts: 190
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10/21/2008 5:08:15 PM
Posted: 8 years ago
At 10/20/2008 8:59:19 PM, scissorhands7 wrote:
1. You shouldn't be able to see who is winning or losing until after you vote this will remove voting bias

2. You should have to participated in at least 3 debates to vote

3. You must post a reason for every point in your vote

4. Voters should be visible to the public

5. Fake Account votes should be flagged by a sub group of monitors

6. This sub group of mods should be made by the moderators and should consist of only very skilled debaters (or the regular mods should do this)

7. An ethics guide and standard debate format should be presented to all new debaters

8. A test should be undergone for all new participants on the ethics guide and standard debate format

9. Comments should be able to be flagged for inappropriate conduct.
And action should actually be taken about those comments.

10. The Reason for decision column should be separate from comments

11. You should be able to block a user from commenting on your debates and voting on your debates.

12. The Forum Topics should be taken down

13. You should be restricted to posting 3 comments at the most on debates

14. Please add more to this list and critique it.

1. But then people who don't vote are screwed.
2. No, people will either make sham debates, or be scared off.
3. Good idea.
4. Not bad.
5. I can see the rationality behind that.
6. Yeah, that's good.
7. Already occurs.
8. NO!!! That will scare everyone away.
9. That's a good idea.
10. Yes.
11. No. I mean, that's not always necessary.
12. What do you mean?
13. No, some debates need lots of comments.
14. Not now.

That's all I've got.
PoeJoe
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10/21/2008 5:16:29 PM
Posted: 8 years ago
It appears no consensus has been reached.

Scissorhands, I understand your frustration, but radical change isn't needed immediately. Lets make smaller steps, and see what happens.
Television Rot: http://tvrot.com...
Dnick94
Posts: 273
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10/21/2008 6:10:39 PM
Posted: 8 years ago
Revised:
1. You shouldn't be able to see who is winning or losing until after you vote or the end of the debate as this will remove voting bias.

2. You should have to participated in at least 3 debates to vote and participated in at least 5 more.

3. You must post a reason for every point in your vote that will be evaluated by a sub group of monitors

4. Voters should be visible to the public only upon request of either debater.

5. Fake Account votes should be flagged by a sub group of monitors.

6. This sub group of mods should be made by the moderators and should consist of only very skilled debaters such as the Cleaners.

7. An ethics guide and standard debate format should be presented to all new debaters.

8. A test under the ethic guide should be undergone for all new participants on the ethics guide and standard debate format, making sure the readers understand about it.

9. Comments should be able to be flagged for inappropriate conduct.
And action should actually be taken about those comments.

10. The Reason for decision column should be separate from comments and be only visible to the debaters.

11. You should be able to eliminate a vote from other voters if you post a valid reason such as vote bombing to the elite group.

12. Please add more to this list and critique it.
"Intellectuals solve problems; geniuses prevent them."
-Albert Einstein
scissorhands7
Posts: 480
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10/21/2008 7:03:57 PM
Posted: 8 years ago
[Revised and updated list] Please critique only off this list.

1. Only Voters shouldn't be able to see who is winning or losing until after you vote this will remove voting bias. Members should not be able to change their vote.

2. Debaters should have won 3 and participated in at least 5 debates in order to vote.

3. You must post a reason for every point in your vote

4. Voters should be visible to the public only upon request of either debater, not the other voters.

5. The moderators should hire or find more help (these people not being debaters) to catch fake accounts more quickly.

6. The mods should make a mandatory video that must be viewed before creating a name. This video will explain the code of conduct in a condensed form and also provide a limited explanation of how to debate properly and how to show good etiquette. This video should be interesting and no longer than 4 minutes.

7. Comments should be able to be flagged for inappropriate conduct.
And action should actually be taken about those comments.

8. The Reason for decision column should be separate from comments and should only be visible to the debaters in the debate

9. Debaters should be able to block a maximum of 4 users from commenting on your debates and voting on your debates. In the case of fake accounts, this will prevent vote bombers from voting/erase their votes until the mods have caught them and deleted them whereby giving the user back 1 more person from every account eliminated.

Example: Joshandr30 creates 3 accounts and proceeds to vote bomb me. I block his three accounts and have 1 limit left. Joshandr30 makes another fake account. I block it. The mods find and delete 2 of joshandr30's fake accounts. I now have a limit of 2 again instead of 0.

13. Debaters should be restricted to posting 3 comments at the most on a particular debate. These legendary discussions have led to the current mess we are in now. It leads to way too much trolling and these discussions should take place in personal messages rather than on the debate itself. This would help reduce trolling from members spamming the debates.

I have flagged tons and tons of joshandr30's spam however the moderators have done nothing about it. Apparently they are much to busy for this and I understand. So limiting 3 comments per user will greatly reduce spamming and will provide (in my opinion) for a more focused atmosphere on the debates themselves than on heated battles where trolling occurs.

14. Moderators should and must delete all votes from accounts that have been deleted.

15. Please add and critique I would like input from EVERYONE. Also I would like to thank everyone who has taken the time to offer suggestions.
I rock peas on my head, but don't call me a peahead, bees on my head but dont call me a beehead, bruce lees on my head but dont call me a lee head...
I hang out with an apple who loves self loathing....
Its my show I'm andy milonakis.
burningpuppies101
Posts: 1,268
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10/23/2008 10:03:45 PM
Posted: 8 years ago
At 10/21/2008 7:03:57 PM, scissorhands7 wrote:
[Revised and updated list] Please critique only off this list.

1. Only Voters shouldn't be able to see who is winning or losing until after you vote this will remove voting bias. Members should not be able to change their vote.

2. Debaters should have won 3 and participated in at least 5 debates in order to vote.

3. You must post a reason for every point in your vote

4. Voters should be visible to the public only upon request of either debater, not the other voters.

5. The moderators should hire or find more help (these people not being debaters) to catch fake accounts more quickly.

6. The mods should make a mandatory video that must be viewed before creating a name. This video will explain the code of conduct in a condensed form and also provide a limited explanation of how to debate properly and how to show good etiquette. This video should be interesting and no longer than 4 minutes.

7. Comments should be able to be flagged for inappropriate conduct.
And action should actually be taken about those comments.

8. The Reason for decision column should be separate from comments and should only be visible to the debaters in the debate

9. Debaters should be able to block a maximum of 4 users from commenting on your debates and voting on your debates. In the case of fake accounts, this will prevent vote bombers from voting/erase their votes until the mods have caught them and deleted them whereby giving the user back 1 more person from every account eliminated.

Example: Joshandr30 creates 3 accounts and proceeds to vote bomb me. I block his three accounts and have 1 limit left. Joshandr30 makes another fake account. I block it. The mods find and delete 2 of joshandr30's fake accounts. I now have a limit of 2 again instead of 0.

13. Debaters should be restricted to posting 3 comments at the most on a particular debate. These legendary discussions have led to the current mess we are in now. It leads to way too much trolling and these discussions should take place in personal messages rather than on the debate itself. This would help reduce trolling from members spamming the debates.

I have flagged tons and tons of joshandr30's spam however the moderators have done nothing about it. Apparently they are much to busy for this and I understand. So limiting 3 comments per user will greatly reduce spamming and will provide (in my opinion) for a more focused atmosphere on the debates themselves than on heated battles where trolling occurs.

14. Moderators should and must delete all votes from accounts that have been deleted.

15. Please add and critique I would like input from EVERYONE. Also I would like to thank everyone who has taken the time to offer suggestions.

1. Good idea. I'm for it.
2. I don't think we would need it if #s 3,4,8 go into effect.
3. Definitely.
4. Nice.
5. Well, if they aren't debaters, then they will have to be hired. I still think just having a group of 15 debaters with a good head on their shoulders should do it.
6. Good idea. Implementation could be hard.
7. All for it.
8. Yes.
9. Good idea, but if mods don't have enough time to do that now, what makes you think they will have enough time to do that later?
10, 11, 12. Doesn't exist anymore.
13. Ok.
14. Sure, but they won't have enough time. Again, insert a group of debaters.
15. A group of debaters.
Omnes te moriturum amant 

http://www.debate.org...
scissorhands7
Posts: 480
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10/23/2008 10:13:49 PM
Posted: 8 years ago
I made a gramatical mistake in #4 it should read:

4. Voters shouldn't be visible to the public and should only be visible to the debaters.
I rock peas on my head, but don't call me a peahead, bees on my head but dont call me a beehead, bruce lees on my head but dont call me a lee head...
I hang out with an apple who loves self loathing....
Its my show I'm andy milonakis.
Robert_Santurri
Posts: 106
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10/25/2008 12:46:24 PM
Posted: 8 years ago
There are plenty of great ideas here.

What I'm wondering at the moment is what exactly the mods are doing to stop vote bombing by anyone. Not just Josh though he seems to be the only one partaking in it at the moment.

You can see it beginning to change the landscape of the website. You notice certain active Liberals/Conservatives who aren't extreme are nearing zero wins while certain Christian Conservatives have near perfect records which wouldn't be without the vote-bombing.
"We cannot defend freedom abroad by deserting it at home."
-- Edward R. Murrow

"Two roads diverged in a wood, and I—
I took the one less traveled by,
And that has made all the difference."
-- Robert Frost
wjmelements
Posts: 8,206
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10/25/2008 7:15:21 PM
Posted: 8 years ago
These are great ideas and should be considered by the people who run this website for v4.
in the blink of an eye you finally see the light
KRFournier
Posts: 690
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11/5/2008 4:27:29 PM
Posted: 8 years ago
I don't know about the entire list. But if I had to choose just one, I'd choose to remove anonymous voting. If people can see vote bombers, then it's harder to be deceptive. I have only two debates that just got vote bombed -- same number of points, same time. If I could see who voted, see that the votes were from the same three accounts, then I could make a case to the mods.

Some of the other points have merit, though others need discussing. But if I had just one, it would be the one mentioned herewith.
Dnick94
Posts: 273
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11/8/2008 4:48:18 PM
Posted: 8 years ago
A block feature to block "certain people" from voting on our debates, especially if that person is vote bombing.
"Intellectuals solve problems; geniuses prevent them."
-Albert Einstein
Kleptin
Posts: 5,095
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11/8/2008 5:21:39 PM
Posted: 8 years ago
I would like capable moderators.
: At 5/2/2010 2:43:54 PM, innomen wrote:
It isn't about finding a theory, philosophy or doctrine and thinking it's the answer, but a practical application of one's experiences that is the answer.

: At 10/28/2010 2:40:07 PM, jharry wrote: I have already been given the greatest Gift that anyone could ever hope for [Life], I would consider myself selfish if I expected anything more.
antisemantic
Posts: 171
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11/8/2008 9:37:23 PM
Posted: 8 years ago
Dang, Klep. You like to get close to the edge huh.

Dnick, YEAH, that will work. Then I can BAN everybody from voting except those that will vote for me! Or, when someone votes against me I can ban them and POOF their vote is gone.

I bet you wish you had that button in the real world too.
Good. Someday, and that day may never come, I'll call upon you to do a service for me. But, until that day, accept this justice as a gift on my daughter's wedding day.
JBlake
Posts: 4,634
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11/8/2008 10:28:57 PM
Posted: 8 years ago
At 11/8/2008 9:37:23 PM, antisemantic wrote:
Dang, Klep. You like to get close to the edge huh.

Dnick, YEAH, that will work. Then I can BAN everybody from voting except those that will vote for me! Or, when someone votes against me I can ban them and POOF their vote is gone.

I bet you wish you had that button in the real world too.

I don't think that button is necessary in the real world. People don't have the anonymity of the internet, so they do not feel inclined to harass people and generally be a nuisance. Doing so would lead to social ostricism in the real world.

Then again, perhaps this is why you have the spare time to be on debate.org constantly harassing and being a nuisance?
antisemantic
Posts: 171
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11/8/2008 10:31:15 PM
Posted: 8 years ago
So the vote booth has a camera in it and you have to put your name on the ballet?
Good. Someday, and that day may never come, I'll call upon you to do a service for me. But, until that day, accept this justice as a gift on my daughter's wedding day.
Dnick94
Posts: 273
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11/9/2008 9:10:08 AM
Posted: 8 years ago
At 11/8/2008 9:37:23 PM, antisemantic wrote:
Dnick, YEAH, that will work. Then everyone can BAN myself from voting Or, when I vote against anyone everyone can ban me and POOF my vote is gone.
"Intellectuals solve problems; geniuses prevent them."
-Albert Einstein
askbob
Posts: 7,254
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11/9/2008 9:12:56 AM
Posted: 8 years ago
People, people,

Don't clog this intelligent discussion on ways to improve this site by indulging someone with far inferior intelligence to our own.

Feel sorry for him, but don't respond to him.
Me -Phil left the site in my charge. I have a recorded phone conversation to prove it.
kohai -If you're the owner, then do something useful like ip block him and get us away from juggle and on a dofferent host!
Me -haha you apparently don't know my history
Kohai - Maybe not, but that doesn't matter! You shoukd still listen to your community and quit being a tyrrant!
Me - i was being completely sarcastic
Kohai - then u misrepresented yourself by impersonating the owner—a violation of the tos