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Petition A Vote To Set A New Rule On DDO.

esisCOA
Posts: 128
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1/9/2012 1:03:38 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
I would like to petition a vote to implicate a new rule that if someone wins a debate based on a rule violation or a forfeit, that voters must recognize and uphold the technical win when voting.

How it can be implemented -

Add a new vote column that reads "won debate based on technicality/forfeit" worth 8 points so it has the ability to ensure the winner wins it, with the options being pro, con and instead of "tie," neither.

It just doesn't seem fair that you can lose a debate you technically won. I understand that this has happened to a lot of people here on DDO, and that indicates that there is a big problem that's being ignored. It makes you wonder how many people stopped using DDO because of this, and I think not having a rule in place is doing a great disservice to the DDO community and website as a whole.

PS - I have already spoken to Innoman about this, and he told me to create this post to find out what the community thinks, so any input you have would be greatly appreciated. I thank you all for reading this, and hope somehow we can resolve this issue.
Chrysippus
Posts: 2,173
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1/9/2012 1:19:16 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/9/2012 1:03:38 PM, esisCOA wrote:
I would like to petition a vote to implicate a new rule that if someone wins a debate based on a rule violation or a forfeit, that voters must recognize and uphold the technical win when voting.

How it can be implemented -

Add a new vote column that reads "won debate based on technicality/forfeit" worth 8 points so it has the ability to ensure the winner wins it, with the options being pro, con and instead of "tie," neither.

It just doesn't seem fair that you can lose a debate you technically won. I understand that this has happened to a lot of people here on DDO, and that indicates that there is a big problem that's being ignored. It makes you wonder how many people stopped using DDO because of this, and I think not having a rule in place is doing a great disservice to the DDO community and website as a whole.

PS - I have already spoken to Innoman about this, and he told me to create this post to find out what the community thinks, so any input you have would be greatly appreciated. I thank you all for reading this, and hope somehow we can resolve this issue.

Voters, by and large, do not follow the existing rules on voting; what would make this rule sacrosanct?

The conscientious voters, who actually vote on the merits of the arguments presented, would rarely (if ever) need to use these eight points; when a rule or heinous forfeit determines the win, all seven is not unjustified. On the other hand the votebombers, already giving all seven points without sufficient reason, could use this category to double the weight of their vote and would not scruple to use it.

I don't think it's as much of a problem as you make it out to be. Sure, you'll get a few debates where the voting is really off; we have threads where such debates can be presented to the community for fair consideration. Every once in awhile, you may lose a debate due to prejudiced voters or voters who did not understand the debate; no amount of rules can change that. This proposal will help none of those cases, will aid the votebombers, and will have only limited use in the few cases it is designed for.

Thumbs down on the proposal, but thank you for thinking of ways to improve the site.
Cavete mea inexorabilis legiones mimus!
esisCOA
Posts: 128
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1/9/2012 2:10:45 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/9/2012 1:19:16 PM, Chrysippus wrote:
At 1/9/2012 1:03:38 PM, esisCOA wrote:
I would like to petition a vote to implicate a new rule that if someone wins a debate based on a rule violation or a forfeit, that voters must recognize and uphold the technical win when voting.

How it can be implemented -

Add a new vote column that reads "won debate based on technicality/forfeit" worth 8 points so it has the ability to ensure the winner wins it, with the options being pro, con and instead of "tie," neither.

It just doesn't seem fair that you can lose a debate you technically won. I understand that this has happened to a lot of people here on DDO, and that indicates that there is a big problem that's being ignored. It makes you wonder how many people stopped using DDO because of this, and I think not having a rule in place is doing a great disservice to the DDO community and website as a whole.

PS - I have already spoken to Innoman about this, and he told me to create this post to find out what the community thinks, so any input you have would be greatly appreciated. I thank you all for reading this, and hope somehow we can resolve this issue.

Voters, by and large, do not follow the existing rules on voting; what would make this rule sacrosanct?

The conscientious voters, who actually vote on the merits of the arguments presented, would rarely (if ever) need to use these eight points; when a rule or heinous forfeit determines the win, all seven is not unjustified. On the other hand the votebombers, already giving all seven points without sufficient reason, could use this category to double the weight of their vote and would not scruple to use it.

I don't think it's as much of a problem as you make it out to be. Sure, you'll get a few debates where the voting is really off; we have threads where such debates can be presented to the community for fair consideration. Every once in awhile, you may lose a debate due to prejudiced voters or voters who did not understand the debate; no amount of rules can change that. This proposal will help none of those cases, will aid the votebombers, and will have only limited use in the few cases it is designed for.

Thumbs down on the proposal, but thank you for thinking of ways to improve the site.

Well the reason I posted this is due to a debate I am involved in, in which I won by rule, however my conduct wasn't great. My problem is that people are giving the conduct point to my opponent, but not giving me any points recognizing the win by rule, and as it stands, they don't have to because there is no category on the vote ballet that recognizes a win by rule/forfeit. And your point about vote bombers is moot due to the fact that counter vote bombers can also use the 7 and 8 points, thereby rendering the vote bombers vote useless.

Also you made a point that this would not help certain cases, such as prejudice or misunderstanding voters, which is true, but true is it also that it certainly wont hurt these cases, besides this rule isn't designed to help them, only cases in which a win by rule/forfeit is present.

Lastly you said "This proposal will help none of those cases, will aid the votebombers, and will have only limited use in the few cases it is designed for. "

It clearly wont hurt those cases, It will not aid vote bombers since they can still be effectively counter bombed, and while it might only be limited in helping cases it was designed for, that better, imo, then not offering any help whatsoever.

I hope you can understand what I am saying and try to rethink your position. Regardless I would like to thank you for your input.
Chrysippus
Posts: 2,173
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1/9/2012 3:18:38 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 1/9/2012 2:10:45 PM, esisCOA wrote:
Well the reason I posted this is due to a debate I am involved in, in which I won by rule, however my conduct wasn't great. My problem is that people are giving the conduct point to my opponent, but not giving me any points recognizing the win by rule, and as it stands, they don't have to because there is no category on the vote ballet that recognizes a win by rule/forfeit.

And if you put such a category on there, there is still no reason to believe that those who vote carelessly or in a biased fashion will use it. Your debate is being lost, I presume, because people are being lazy and not really reading it; or because they don't care about the rules of the debate. This points category will not help you, or anyone in your position, since lazy people will continue to ignore the rules or give the points along whatever lines suit their whim.

Add to this the relative rarity of your predicament, as most debates are determined by the quality of the arguments rather than on aggressive auto-lose rules, and there is even less reason to make changes.

Personally, when a debate is set out with abusive auto-lose rules, the instigator automatically loses my conduct vote for the way he set up the debate. He may get arguments if his opponent breaks the rules, but there's little reason to reward such conduct with eight points.

And your point about vote bombers is moot due to the fact that counter vote bombers can also use the 7 and 8 points, thereby rendering the vote bombers vote useless.

Votebombers are fairly common; counter-voters fairly rare. The overall effect is to give the votebombers more power, making the outcome of debates less contingent on the content and more on the quality of the voters. To reduce the effect of poor voting, each vote should count less, not more.

I hope you can understand what I am saying and try to rethink your position. Regardless I would like to thank you for your input.

Your position is understandable, but flawed. I see no compelling reason to support it.
Cavete mea inexorabilis legiones mimus!
Double_R
Posts: 4,886
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1/10/2012 12:10:41 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
Sorry bro, I gotta disagree also. The fundamental problem here is not the system, its the voters. Changing the system will not solve this problem.
THEBOMB
Posts: 2,872
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1/10/2012 8:50:51 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
This idea isn't to bad...you'd just need to add extra things that only one or two moderators can utilize....give the moderators a vote override whenever all 7 points or 15 with this new rule get implemented allowing them to change these votes...also make the system send a message to whomever the mod is informing them of the change....

It would stop vote bombing at the cost of the moderators sanity.