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The Alliance Against Vote-Bombing

ToastOfDestiny
Posts: 990
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6/12/2009 3:39:22 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
I've lost two debates now that were clearly my victories - it's ridiculous. If you have been votebombed/voted against for no reason, post a link to your debate here, and we'll try to set it right.

Who's with me? (Hopefully this doesn't result in even further bombing)
At 10/11/2009 8:28:18 PM, banker wrote:
Our demise and industrial destruction
At 10/11/2009 10:00:21 PM, regebro wrote:
Only exists in your head, as already shown.

At 10/11/2009 8:28:18 PM, banker wrote:
reveal why you answer with a question mark
At 10/11/2009 10:00:21 PM, regebro wrote:
Because it was a question.

RFDs Pl0x:
http://www.debate.org...
Volkov
Posts: 9,765
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6/12/2009 3:40:47 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
Oh, it probably will. But it is a step in the right direction - but maybe we should leave it for private messaging?
Nik
Posts: 552
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6/12/2009 3:57:38 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
what does Charlie foxtrot mean? apart from C H
"If you could tell the world but one truth, I could convince it of a thousand lies"
Volkov
Posts: 9,765
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6/12/2009 3:59:32 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 6/12/2009 3:57:38 PM, Nik wrote:
what does Charlie foxtrot mean? apart from C H

Cluster f*cked in military code. As in, "the situation is Charle Foxtrot, over."

I found it on this (don't ban me for pasting a site with swear words, please):

http://en.wikipedia.org...

Makes me laugh to no end.
PoeJoe
Posts: 3,822
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6/12/2009 4:10:53 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
You are not getting vote bombed. Please use that word more carefully. I think you mean 'vote abuse.' The term 'vote bomb' implies a malicious attack.

A long time ago there was a group called "The Cleaners." Their goal was to leave RFDs (reasons for decision) in comments. But it died out. There is a lot of history you are unaware of.

Besides, the goal here is not to win, but to become more knowledgeable.

The system will never be perfect. Live with it.
Television Rot: http://tvrot.com...
Volkov
Posts: 9,765
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6/12/2009 4:14:08 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 6/12/2009 4:10:53 PM, PoeJoe wrote:
The system will never be perfect. Live with it.

We shouldn't have to if we don't want to. I think its a good idea. even if you are right - it isn't about winning, its just about knowing more than you did before.
patsox834
Posts: 406
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6/12/2009 5:31:43 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
I seems as if I was vote bombed in this debate: http://www.debate.org...

I obviously did win it -- but despite that, I lost 21-14. Thing is, I was winning until relatively close to the deadline. It was tied for a while, and maybe a few hours before it ended, I was losing. Plus, the debate isn't on the home page, so they'd have to find it through searching, or my or untitled_entity's profile.

Meh. I think I won, and that's what matters to me.
resolutionsmasher
Posts: 579
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6/12/2009 7:55:04 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 6/12/2009 4:14:08 PM, Volkov wrote:
At 6/12/2009 4:10:53 PM, PoeJoe wrote:
The system will never be perfect. Live with it.

We shouldn't have to if we don't want to. I think its a good idea. even if you are right - it isn't about winning, its just about knowing more than you did before.

idealism and realism are two different things
this is something every big time debater needs to remember
an argument that works in one fails in the other
vote bombing and 'abuse' should be prevented ideally
sadly this is an unreachable goal in the real world.
In the relationship between Obama and the rest of the U.S..... I think the U.S. is getting the short end of the hockey stick.
resolutionsmasher
Posts: 579
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6/12/2009 7:58:39 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 6/12/2009 5:31:43 PM, patsox834 wrote:
I seems as if I was vote bombed in this debate: http://www.debate.org...

I obviously did win it -- but despite that, I lost 21-14. Thing is, I was winning until relatively close to the deadline. It was tied for a while, and maybe a few hours before it ended, I was losing. Plus, the debate isn't on the home page, so they'd have to find it through searching, or my or untitled_entity's profile.

Meh. I think I won, and that's what matters to me.

You avoided the concept of the debate and used underhanded tactics to argue. I'd flunk you too. Sorry but that's not a vote bomb.
In the relationship between Obama and the rest of the U.S..... I think the U.S. is getting the short end of the hockey stick.
resolutionsmasher
Posts: 579
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6/12/2009 7:59:38 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
only three people voted
In the relationship between Obama and the rest of the U.S..... I think the U.S. is getting the short end of the hockey stick.
Volkov
Posts: 9,765
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6/12/2009 8:00:54 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 6/12/2009 7:55:04 PM, resolutionsmasher wrote:
idealism and realism are two different things
this is something every big time debater needs to remember
an argument that works in one fails in the other
vote bombing and 'abuse' should be prevented ideally
sadly this is an unreachable goal in the real world.

Does this mean we give up all hope, not bother to do anything at all?

No, it just means that even though we won't eliminate it 100%, we're at least trying to help ourselves. We're making some change, instead of giving up just because its "unreachable". That is such a lame excuse.
resolutionsmasher
Posts: 579
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6/12/2009 8:09:27 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 6/12/2009 8:00:54 PM, Volkov wrote:
At 6/12/2009 7:55:04 PM, resolutionsmasher wrote:
idealism and realism are two different things
this is something every big time debater needs to remember
an argument that works in one fails in the other
vote bombing and 'abuse' should be prevented ideally
sadly this is an unreachable goal in the real world.

Does this mean we give up all hope, not bother to do anything at all?

No, it just means that even though we won't eliminate it 100%, we're at least trying to help ourselves. We're making some change, instead of giving up just because its "unreachable". That is such a lame excuse.

I'm not saying give up. I actually agree with you on this one. But if we must choose between applying resources to an unreachable goal or a reachable one then I would choose the reachable one.
In the relationship between Obama and the rest of the U.S..... I think the U.S. is getting the short end of the hockey stick.
Volkov
Posts: 9,765
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6/12/2009 8:14:31 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 6/12/2009 8:09:27 PM, resolutionsmasher wrote:
I'm not saying give up. I actually agree with you on this one. But if we must choose between applying resources to an unreachable goal or a reachable one then I would choose the reachable one.

What reachable one? We can't change the voting system, to quote PoeJoe, "just give up hope now". I think this is doable in the meantime.
patsox834
Posts: 406
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6/12/2009 8:24:11 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 6/12/2009 7:58:39 PM, resolutionsmasher wrote:
At 6/12/2009 5:31:43 PM, patsox834 wrote:
I seems as if I was vote bombed in this debate: http://www.debate.org...

I obviously did win it -- but despite that, I lost 21-14. Thing is, I was winning until relatively close to the deadline. It was tied for a while, and maybe a few hours before it ended, I was losing. Plus, the debate isn't on the home page, so they'd have to find it through searching, or my or untitled_entity's profile.

Meh. I think I won, and that's what matters to me.

You avoided the concept of the debate and used underhanded tactics to argue. I'd flunk you too. Sorry but that's not a vote bomb.

Are you kidding? My opponent didn't provide any definitions, so I did -- nothing "underhanded" about that. It was fair game.
ToastOfDestiny
Posts: 990
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6/12/2009 8:30:18 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
http://www.Debate.org...

This is the kind of thing I'm talking about, although I've seen far worse in L-M's debates. I went through his (and others') losses, and voted people up and down as I would in a normal debate. I found that even though his wins/losses were slightly changed, after a day his losses went back up in the debates I voted on. What I'm protesting is this abuse of the system, people voting to bring debaters down.

Alright - perhaps vote-bombing isn't an appropriate term, but that doesn't change the fact that the voting system is being abused (patsox's problem was with the same person as me). The system definitely does need some fixing, but the admins can't do anything short of reading every single debate and deciding whether abuse has taken place. I'm not worried about winning here. In fact, if the voting period was longer, I'd encourage people to vote against me in my debate "The Laws of Mathematics are Unchangeable", as I'm pretty sure a friend put me over the top. I do want to make sure that the outcome of every debate is fair. I'm not saying that someone can post a link, say "I was abused", and we all vote for them. Rather, if it comes to our attention that abuse may have taken place, we vote on that debate for whomever should be the winner. I have seen traces of "The Cleaners" in debates. It's a novel idea, and I've come to use it when I vote in most debates. A PM system would probably be best. If I can, I'll delete this thread tomorrow night.
At 10/11/2009 8:28:18 PM, banker wrote:
Our demise and industrial destruction
At 10/11/2009 10:00:21 PM, regebro wrote:
Only exists in your head, as already shown.

At 10/11/2009 8:28:18 PM, banker wrote:
reveal why you answer with a question mark
At 10/11/2009 10:00:21 PM, regebro wrote:
Because it was a question.

RFDs Pl0x:
http://www.debate.org...
ToastOfDestiny
Posts: 990
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6/12/2009 8:33:37 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
Just checked the debate - more votes have been cast. But I just can't see any +7s going to untitled_entity there (sorry if you're reading this). I don't want to seem whiny now for protesting me being down 2. I used to be down 7, where the votes for untitled were +7s.
At 10/11/2009 8:28:18 PM, banker wrote:
Our demise and industrial destruction
At 10/11/2009 10:00:21 PM, regebro wrote:
Only exists in your head, as already shown.

At 10/11/2009 8:28:18 PM, banker wrote:
reveal why you answer with a question mark
At 10/11/2009 10:00:21 PM, regebro wrote:
Because it was a question.

RFDs Pl0x:
http://www.debate.org...
burningpuppies101
Posts: 1,268
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6/12/2009 9:09:01 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
1. Agreed with PoeJoe. This ain't vote bombing, just abuse.
2. Any organized form against any voter abuse won't work. It's been tried, and the result is: no one remembers a thing about the cleaners.

3. If you want to change things like this, actively put change in your debates. Ask people to vote fair. Be actively moving for change on the forums. Don't just site there and demand that something be done.
Omnes te moriturum amant 

http://www.debate.org...
mongeese
Posts: 5,387
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6/13/2009 7:04:23 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 6/12/2009 5:31:43 PM, patsox834 wrote:
I seems as if I was vote bombed in this debate: http://www.debate.org...

I obviously did win it -- but despite that, I lost 21-14. Thing is, I was winning until relatively close to the deadline. It was tied for a while, and maybe a few hours before it ended, I was losing. Plus, the debate isn't on the home page, so they'd have to find it through searching, or my or untitled_entity's profile.

Meh. I think I won, and that's what matters to me.

I feel your pain.

http://www.debate.org...

Same opponent, too.

Hmmm...
brittwaller
Posts: 331
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6/14/2009 9:50:20 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
Read what PoeJoe and BP101 said, they're correct.

If a person is going to debate here, that's what they have to do - debate. Most of the people who are any good, including "legends" such as L-M, etc, etc, realized a long time ago that the voting system was and is broken and superfluous. It doesn't matter.

So please stop with the "vote-bombing" threads that aren't about vote-bombing, and even if they were wouldn't make a difference.

Thank you.
Don't I take care of them all?
sherlockmethod
Posts: 317
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6/14/2009 10:19:19 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
I am disappointed some of the veteran members' comments on this thread focus more on chastising the OP for confusing vote bombing with vote abuse than addressing the claim. Stating we will never have a perfect system ignores the need for improvement. Sure, the system won't be perfect - so what? We still should not ignore voting abuse. I am new here, and I read about the cleaners and have asked the more experienced debaters to look at my debates so as to get a better feel for the site. Going into a debate 14 pts down because your opponent and his friend always give 7 points is frustrating.
Winning is not the point, I agree, but newer members will stick around longer, I believe, if we give RFDs for debates and help prevent voting abuse from being the deciding factor in a debate. How should one go about asking a veteran to examine a debate as I have no problem using the forums to do so. From the few debates I have lost, the points given were only 14, but 14 points is a lot when no one else is reading the debate. A new member who honestly does not assign 7 pts to himself is at a disadvantage. I see no problem in helping the debater out by reading the debate.
Library cards: Stopping stupid one book at a time.
PoeJoe
Posts: 3,822
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6/14/2009 11:11:48 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
You really do have to trust me when I say that what we have now is relatively great and that things are not going to get any better.

Without going into too much detail, there was once a user named Josh who spearheaded an imagined "Conservative World Order." (I mean, there was an actual group called the "cWo" at one point, but let's not make things complicated.) He would give hundreds of points against people he didn't like, and this went on for the good majority of a year. Finally, the systems administrator created a vote bomb removal system that caught users with multiple accounts and deleted their votes. You have to just trust me. What we have now is pretty much the best we will ever get.

The problem is, not enough people spend the time to read that many debates. I should know from personal experience. With an incredible amount of schoolwork, I have read and voted on very few debates over the last couple of months. So what you're asking for is not voting reform, you're asking for better voters, which is simply not going to happen.

I'll say this one more time: Just be happy that you're debating. Just be happy that you're learning. Those concepts are the fundamental core of DDO. Live with it.
Television Rot: http://tvrot.com...
PoeJoe
Posts: 3,822
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6/14/2009 11:13:26 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
In addition, this site makes very little money for WebCorp. The developers of WC have even said that no new changes are going to happen to this site this year. So lose hope now, the fall will be lessened.
Television Rot: http://tvrot.com...
feverish
Posts: 2,716
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6/14/2009 12:20:45 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
I'm sure when I first joined this site I saw Poejoe and others suggesting that the voting system would be updated in May to show who voted on debates.

Also it is pretty unfair that the identity system does not allow for UK mobiles.

Bring back the cleaners please! RFDs rule!
PoeJoe
Posts: 3,822
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6/14/2009 1:26:00 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 6/14/2009 12:20:45 PM, feverish wrote:
I'm sure when I first joined this site I saw Poejoe and others suggesting that the voting system would be updated in May to show who voted on debates.

While other sites make WC thousands of dollars a day, DDO only makes them tens, if even that. The purported statistic given a couple of months ago was "like, $5 a day, lol." It doesn't make smart business sense for them to develop DDO until it grows bigger.

Also it is pretty unfair that the identity system does not allow for UK mobiles.

Yeah. But I'd submit that before cell-phone confirmation, legitimate vote bombing was rampant.

Bring back the cleaners please! RFDs rule!

Some older members aggrandize the days of the cleaners, but, really, the group was only organized for one day -- the day in which Kleptin, the creator of the group, sent out assignment to everyone. After that, the group died out, because no one had the time.
Television Rot: http://tvrot.com...
wjmelements
Posts: 8,206
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6/14/2009 1:51:45 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
The AAV-B is just the Cleaners all over again. And all AAV-B members will only be bombed.
in the blink of an eye you finally see the light
brittwaller
Posts: 331
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6/14/2009 8:47:05 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 6/14/2009 1:51:45 PM, wjmelements wrote:
The AAV-B is just the Cleaners all over again. And all AAV-B members will only be bombed.

Well said. The ideas behind the cleaners went back even further:

http://www.debate.org...

RFDs are great, and I always try to provide them when I vote. Other than that, I don't care anymore. Call me cynical. Good luck with your group.
Don't I take care of them all?