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Text Formatting in Debates

s0m31john
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6/15/2009 1:22:43 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
Whine whine whine, complain complain complain. There, now that's that's out of they way you don't have to even start it.

Before I explain exactly what this is and how to get it here are some pictures of it in action:

With script:
http://img20.imageshack.us...

Without script:
http://img26.imageshack.us...

Use this canceled debate to test the script once you have it set up:
http://www.debate.org...

As you can see with the script you'll be able to do things like bold, italicize, underline, and change text color. You can also use the quote feature to create block quotes.

In order to use this script you will have to be using Mozilla Firefox with the Greasemonkey addon. I have a feeling this is where the complaining is going to come in.

There are workarounds for other browsers. Feel free to look them up on your own. Maybe if you didn't use a fail browser we wouldn't have this problem. If you find out how to do it in your browser please post it here for others. If you don't even know where to start looking I suggest searching Google for "Greasemonkey [insert your browser]".

For everyone that's smart enough to be using Firefox just install the Greasemonkey addon:
https://addons.mozilla.org...
Restart Firefox
Then install the user script:
http://userscripts.org...

The supported tags right now are as follows.

[b]Text[/b] - Bold text
[u]Text[/u] - Underline text
[i]Text[/i] - Italicize text
[quote]Text[/quote] - Create a block quote
[color=red]Text[/color] - Red text (change color name for different color).

That's really all we should need. For the time being if you use these codes in a debate link to this thread so any users not using the script can enable it or at least know why you are using that code.

Feel free to start complaining now, as it seems that's all you people can do.
mongeese
Posts: 5,387
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6/15/2009 1:39:56 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
The only potential problem would be illegibility due to color, although highlighting or copying into Word would fix it.

High-five!
s0m31john
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6/15/2009 1:52:22 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
I'm working on one that will allow us to post images inline as well. It's being difficult at the moment, but it should be included in the next update.

If you guys use the code in a debate link to it in this thread. I want to see it in action.
Ragnar_Rahl
Posts: 19,297
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6/15/2009 2:42:13 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
Installed.

And who called it? Who called it several minutes before thread opened? lol.
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
s0m31john
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6/15/2009 4:07:38 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 6/15/2009 4:05:27 PM, wjmelements wrote:
But I don't have Firefox...

Either get it or search around for a way to use it in your browser.
PoeJoe
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6/15/2009 5:22:07 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
I suspect only few users will use this, thus rendering the idea useless.

Furthermore, ewww ... BBCode. I would much rather prefer real HTML, thank you very much.
Television Rot: http://tvrot.com...
s0m31john
Posts: 1,879
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6/15/2009 5:30:58 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 6/15/2009 5:22:07 PM, PoeJoe wrote:
I suspect only few users will use this, thus rendering the idea useless.

Won't support user made solutions.

Won't push for more real development on the site.

Sure is negative Nancy no progress in any direction in here.

If the largest debaters pick it up (which based off this thread many have) and do the simple act of linking to this one thread it could easily be used in most debates.. One link, it's not a monumental task so don't make it out to be one. So what if noobs refuse to pick it up? If they stay long enough to actually join the community they probably will install it eventually. And if regulars use the tags it'll make reading debates easier for all the other regulars that read debates. Install it and actually put some effort forth. If you say Phil isn't going to do anything, how about you try.

I'm also tired of the no money or time to work on the site excuse. I literally threw this together in less than an hour. You can not tell me it wold be any harder to put something similar into to the real site.
PoeJoe
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6/15/2009 5:52:55 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
I think my record shows I am for the progress of this website, and I find it a bit insulting you would imply otherwise.

I just think we should be happy with what we have now. There is no need for third-party software to convolute the debates on the website. If you really think formatting is that important, just be patient. You can be patient, I can be patient, we can be patient, so let's just be patient.

Also, you completely ignored my comment about not using real HTML.
Television Rot: http://tvrot.com...
Ragnar_Rahl
Posts: 19,297
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6/15/2009 5:54:48 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
As my little brother would say "I don't want patience! I want chicken nuggets!"
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
leet4A1
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6/15/2009 5:55:29 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
Excellent work John, it's good to see members taking initiative to make this website better.

For those with IE, by the way, here's where you can get Greasemonkey: http://www.gm4ie.com...

Hey John, when I go to the link you provided to install the BBCode, I click "Install>Run", then get the following error:

Script: Blah blah blah
Line: 9
Char: 1
Error: 'document' is undefined
Code: 800A1391
Source: Microsoft JScript runtime error

Now, without pointing out the obvious fact that I'm a computer 'tard, can you please tell me how to fix this and install the code?
"Let me tell you the truth. The truth is, 'what is'. And 'what should be' is a fantasy, a terrible terrible lie that someone gave to the people long ago. The 'what should be' never did exist, but people keep trying to live up to it. There is no 'what should be,' there is only what is." - Lenny Bruce

"Satan goes to church, did you know that?" - Godsands

"And Genisis 1 does match modern science... you just have to try really hard." - GR33K FR33K5
s0m31john
Posts: 1,879
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6/15/2009 6:04:16 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
Hey John, when I go to the link you provided to install the BBCode, I click "Install>Run", then get the following error:

Script: Blah blah blah
Line: 9
Char: 1
Error: 'document' is undefined
Code: 800A1391
Source: Microsoft JScript runtime error

Now, without pointing out the obvious fact that I'm a computer 'tard, can you please tell me how to fix this and install the code?

Make sure you have Greasemonkey installed and you restart Firefox after you install it. Then go to the userscript and click install. You should get something like this: http://img191.imageshack.us...

What is happening right now is you're trying to let some other Windows thing open the script instead of Greasemonkey. If all else fails make sure you have Greasemonkey installed, then save the file to your desktop and drag it into the Firefox window. At that point it should ask you if you want to install it.
s0m31john
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6/15/2009 6:05:11 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
You can be patient, I can be patient, we can be patient, so let's just be patient.

Or how about we show Phil that months of waiting is patient enough.
ToastOfDestiny
Posts: 990
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6/15/2009 6:16:13 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
This seems totally awesome. Kudos!

Just checking though - using the script we can now bold/underline/italicize text, but will everyone be able to read it?
At 10/11/2009 8:28:18 PM, banker wrote:
Our demise and industrial destruction
At 10/11/2009 10:00:21 PM, regebro wrote:
Only exists in your head, as already shown.

At 10/11/2009 8:28:18 PM, banker wrote:
reveal why you answer with a question mark
At 10/11/2009 10:00:21 PM, regebro wrote:
Because it was a question.

RFDs Pl0x:
http://www.debate.org...
s0m31john
Posts: 1,879
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6/15/2009 6:19:41 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 6/15/2009 6:16:13 PM, ToastOfDestiny wrote:
This seems totally awesome. Kudos!

Just checking though - using the script we can now bold/underline/italicize text, but will everyone be able to read it?

I set it up to only work in debates since the forums already have those things. Unfortunately you have to have the script installed to see the effects. That's why I said for the time being just post a link to this tread in your debate round and say one line like "see this link to turn on formatting" or something along those lines. If the big debaters pick it up it shouldn't be a problem.
PoeJoe
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6/15/2009 6:30:14 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
Like the image board previously, this idea will fail, because you rely on very hopeful premises. First, debate reading has been on steady decline. Most debates are read by one or two people at most. Secondly, people are pretty much content with the current format. If they weren't, users would defect to other debating websites. Lastly, the chances of this spreading much are doubtful.

Also, try not to bag on Phil so much, even if it is the popular thing to do. In relative proportion to how much this site makes him, he has done a tremendous job creating the site. As novice programmers, we should know best how hard it must have been to create this wonderful site and how much time and energy and devotion have been spent developing it. I know my opinion is unpopular, but we just have to accept the way things are right now, because the condition of this website really isn't that bad.
Television Rot: http://tvrot.com...
s0m31john
Posts: 1,879
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6/15/2009 6:45:14 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
Like the image board previously, this idea will fail, because you rely on very hopeful premises.

It seems you're the one that is bad for the community because all you seem to bring are negative opinions. How about you have some faith in the community we have here and stop writing them off completely.

First, debate reading has been on steady decline. Most debates are read by one or two people at most.

Debates have hundred of views, at least the ones worth reading. I spend quite a bit of time on this site reading debates and if a two click script installation will help me format and read better formatted debates it sounds like it's worth it to me. Again it sounds like you're just writing off the community. Perhaps reading debates has gone down, but surely it's higher than you say and many regulars still do it.

Secondly, people are pretty much content with the current format. If they weren't, users would defect to other debating websites.

You only stay one a website because of how it looks? I like the community here, and would find it pretty hard to just up and move just because we're missing a few features. I'm not content with the site, but I stay for other reasons. If you don't then I suggest you should be the one to leave.

Lastly, the chances of this spreading much are doubtful.

Here we go with the negative Nancy? So what, it takes 3 clicks top to install. Instead of denouncing things right away how about you try them and help it spread.

Also, try not to bag on Phil so much, even if it is the popular thing to do. In relative proportion to how much this site makes him, he has done a tremendous job creating the site.

I agree, but that does not mean we should demand less for this site. That people are even motivated enough to create scripts and other sites shows that the community is strong enough to make changes if Phil isn't.

I know my opinion is unpopular, but we just have to accept the way things are right now, because the condition of this website really isn't that bad.

It's not, but again it could be better. If Phil doesn't have time to work on it the users can. Greasemonkey isn't some small time extension. Thousands of sites including big ones like Wikipedia, Youtube, and Google have hundreds of thousands of scripts made by community members to make those sites better. I'm sure between the handful of members here we could put together some half decent scripts or better yet just one. Maybe I'll name the next update BetterDebate following in the steps of other major scripts like BetterGoogle, BetterYahoo, BetterGmail, BetterFlicker, etc.
Ragnar_Rahl
Posts: 19,297
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6/15/2009 7:03:12 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
CAGEMATCH. POEJOE Vs. SOM31J0HN. LOCATION AND DATE TBA.
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
PoeJoe
Posts: 3,822
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6/15/2009 7:37:26 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 6/15/2009 6:45:14 PM, s0m31john wrote:
Like the image board previously, this idea will fail, because you rely on very hopeful premises.

It seems you're the one that is bad for the community because all you seem to bring are negative opinions. How about you have some faith in the community we have here and stop writing them off completely.

I admit I've been a little bit negative lately, but I think that for the vast majority of the instances in which I appear negative, it is justified. For example, with the new alliance-against vote bombing thing: I simply provided a realistic history lesson of DDO. Could it appear negative? Yeah. But I think my comments provided some insight.

Similarly, I am not writing this attempt off. As much as the skeptic within wants to scream "don't have blind faith", I think I am one of the users who has the most faith in DDO. I mean, users on here joke about how much of myself I devote to DDO all the time. I am merely rising doubt.

First, debate reading has been on steady decline. Most debates are read by one or two people at most.

Debates have hundred of views, at least the ones worth reading. I spend quite a bit of time on this site reading debates and if a two click script installation will help me format and read better formatted debates it sounds like it's worth it to me. Again it sounds like you're just writing off the community. Perhaps reading debates has gone down, but surely it's higher than you say and many regulars still do it.

Repeat what I said above. Also, for outsiders considering joining DDO, I really do think a third-party script system will convolute the debate.

Secondly, people are pretty much content with the current format. If they weren't, users would defect to other debating websites.

You only stay one a website because of how it looks? I like the community here, and would find it pretty hard to just up and move just because we're missing a few features. I'm not content with the site, but I stay for other reasons. If you don't then I suggest you should be the one to leave.

Good point. But, again, even despite its flaws, DDO remains the best debating website on the web. My point was that the situation really doesn't demand such a third-party script system in the first place, because the users don't really care.

Lastly, the chances of this spreading much are doubtful.

Here we go with the negative Nancy? So what, it takes 3 clicks top to install. Instead of denouncing things right away how about you try them and help it spread.

The image board, of which you placed great hope, failed. I am being realistic.

Also, try not to bag on Phil so much, even if it is the popular thing to do. In relative proportion to how much this site makes him, he has done a tremendous job creating the site.

I agree, but that does not mean we should demand less for this site. That people are even motivated enough to create scripts and other sites shows that the community is strong enough to make changes if Phil isn't.

You're equivocating. I agree with your sentiments.

I know my opinion is unpopular, but we just have to accept the way things are right now, because the condition of this website really isn't that bad.

It's not, but again it could be better. If Phil doesn't have time to work on it the users can. Greasemonkey isn't some small time extension. Thousands of sites including big ones like Wikipedia, Youtube, and Google have hundreds of thousands of scripts made by community members to make those sites better. I'm sure between the handful of members here we could put together some half decent scripts or better yet just one. Maybe I'll name the next update BetterDebate following in the steps of other major scripts like BetterGoogle, BetterYahoo, BetterGmail, BetterFlicker, etc.

Then all the best wishes to this attempt.

My one suggestion would be to use real HTML. And not just HTML, but xHTML.
Television Rot: http://tvrot.com...
Logical-Master
Posts: 2,538
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6/15/2009 8:31:56 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 6/15/2009 7:03:12 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
CAGEMATCH. POEJOE Vs. SOM31J0HN. LOCATION AND DATE TBA.

This long awaited fight was inevitable and has no doubt been debated as often as the hypothetical battle between Kirk and picard (which Kirk would clearly win by the way, but that's besides the point). However, can the forums afford to sustain a battle between these two titans? It is the equivalent to an unmovable object coming into contact with an unstoppable force. There is no telling what will happen if these two get serious and go all out. We may not have a debate.org to come back to. Best to walk away rather tap death on the shoulder.
s0m31john
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6/16/2009 1:36:22 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
I came across some minor bugs and fixed them. Feel free just to reinstall the script, go to the site and click install just like last time and it will update itself.

Also, I used it in this debate.

http://www.debate.org...
KRFournier
Posts: 690
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6/16/2009 8:41:21 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
While I have resisted many of s0m31john's other ideas--the image repository and what not--I actually like this one. Honestly, I looked at John's debate sample, and even without the script, it's quite readable. I mean people have been using all sorts of tags to identify headings or quotes, and this is just another tag. I mean this:

[QUOTE]

is easier to spot and understand than:

>>>

when identifying quotes. So, it's win-win. Those with the script get the formatting they've always wanted, and those without it can still very easily understand the debate.

Question: does the script execute it's formatting when reviewing our submitted debate rounds so we can spot errors?
KRFournier
Posts: 690
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6/16/2009 8:53:23 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
Might I make a feature request? Can you use the same CSS style for blockquotes that are used in these forums? I extracted the style from the forums.css if you want to incorporate it. It would make the quotes stand out in a way that I think is familiar with DDO members:

blockquote {border-left: solid 1px #4c4c4c; color: #4c4c4c; font-style: italic; margin: 5px 0 10px 0; padding-left: 5px;}
s0m31john
Posts: 1,879
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6/16/2009 10:25:56 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
Question: does the script execute it's formatting when reviewing our submitted debate rounds so we can spot errors?

Yes, the latest version does. That was the bug I mentioned in my previous post.

Can you use the same CSS style for blockquotes that are used in these forums

I'll look into it for the next update.