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Kefka
Posts: 49
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6/22/2009 12:22:51 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
How many people, honestly, believe that Communism, is possible? Or at least the type that I've been defending; because apparently I'm defending Anarcho- Communism? Regardless, I just want to see if any people here actually see it as something possible or something that will inevitably occur, as Marx predicted. Or, if I've even SLIGHTLY changed anyone's mind, even a little....
Lexicaholic
Posts: 526
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6/22/2009 12:30:14 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 6/22/2009 12:22:51 AM, Kefka wrote:
How many people, honestly, believe that Communism, is possible? Or at least the type that I've been defending; because apparently I'm defending Anarcho- Communism? Regardless, I just want to see if any people here actually see it as something possible or something that will inevitably occur, as Marx predicted. Or, if I've even SLIGHTLY changed anyone's mind, even a little....

I think you're actually on your way towards socialism, personally Kefka ... you've already conceded some valuation points.

To be fair, your particular brand of communism would only work in a world full of ethical people. Not the world we live in today, but I would never be so vain as to presume the nature of the world we'll live in tomorrow.
http://mastersofcreationrpg.com... - My new site and long-developed project. Should be fun.
Kefka
Posts: 49
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6/22/2009 12:48:29 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
Well, of course it only works with ethical people. But in a time where people could cast away their previous needs for materialistic rewards as proof of their contribution to society, I think that 's when people would have socially evolved enough to live in a society such as the one I defend. I do not expect any of what Marx has predicted to happen anytime soon, but we should start now to reach our goal, rather than resting on laurels and trying to live in a severely broken system. The road will not be easy, but it, in my opinion, is a milestone we have to reach before total enlightenment :D haha
Ragnar_Rahl
Posts: 19,297
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6/22/2009 6:48:45 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
Materialistic rewards aren't there to "prove contribution to society." People seek them because they ENJOY them, and in some cases must EAT them or be SHELTERED by them and so forth to SURVIVE. Members of society occasionally use their broad sum to determine how successful someone has been in contributing to someone, but that is NOT their primary purpose, materials continue to be pursued even in the COMPLETE ABSENCE of a society (i.e., one man on a desert island is just as "materialistic.")

Communism already works, btw. You've just got the wrong species for it.
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
alto2osu
Posts: 277
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6/22/2009 10:16:48 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
I maintain that pieces of myriad political/social theories combined into a single system will probably be the most successful. Hence, I support some of the concepts in Communism, but also of Socialism, of Capitalism, etc. Same goes with governmental systems. We don't really see successful, pure forms of government. We see hybrids and evolved governmental structures that have adjusted based on the interests of the people.

I will say that your debates have encouraged me to look further into Communist theory than I have in a long time, which is, in my mind, much more powerful than convincing me to be a Marxist. :) If my argument about hybridization is valid, then knowing enough about Communism to apply pieces of it in order to further improve quality of life for humanity is key to changing the world.
Rezzealaux
Posts: 2,251
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6/22/2009 11:08:05 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
Define "possible".
: If you weren't new here, you'd know not to feed me such attention. This is like an orgasm in my brain right now. *hehe, my name is in a title, hehe* (http://www.debate.org...)

Just in case I get into some BS with FREEDO again about how he's NOT a narcissist.

"The law is there to destroy evil under the constitutional government."
So... what's there to destroy evil inside of and above the constitutional government?
mongoose
Posts: 3,500
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6/22/2009 3:36:21 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 6/22/2009 10:16:48 AM, alto2osu wrote:
I maintain that pieces of myriad political/social theories combined into a single system will probably be the most successful. Hence, I support some of the concepts in Communism, but also of Socialism, of Capitalism, etc. Same goes with governmental systems. We don't really see successful, pure forms of government. We see hybrids and evolved governmental structures that have adjusted based on the interests of the people.

I will say that your debates have encouraged me to look further into Communist theory than I have in a long time, which is, in my mind, much more powerful than convincing me to be a Marxist. :) If my argument about hybridization is valid, then knowing enough about Communism to apply pieces of it in order to further improve quality of life for humanity is key to changing the world.

Show me one failed entirely capitalist nation.
It is odd when one's capacity for compassion is measured not in what he is willing to do by his own time, effort, and property, but what he will force others to do with their own property instead.
I-am-a-panda
Posts: 15,380
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6/22/2009 3:37:47 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 6/22/2009 3:36:21 PM, mongoose wrote:
At 6/22/2009 10:16:48 AM, alto2osu wrote:
I maintain that pieces of myriad political/social theories combined into a single system will probably be the most successful. Hence, I support some of the concepts in Communism, but also of Socialism, of Capitalism, etc. Same goes with governmental systems. We don't really see successful, pure forms of government. We see hybrids and evolved governmental structures that have adjusted based on the interests of the people.

I will say that your debates have encouraged me to look further into Communist theory than I have in a long time, which is, in my mind, much more powerful than convincing me to be a Marxist. :) If my argument about hybridization is valid, then knowing enough about Communism to apply pieces of it in order to further improve quality of life for humanity is key to changing the world.

Show me one failed entirely capitalist nation.

According to Ragnar, no such state has existed. However, show me proof that Communist russia faired worse than the U.S. in the Wall Street Crash.
Pizza. I have enormous respect for Pizza.
mongoose
Posts: 3,500
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6/22/2009 7:32:42 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 6/22/2009 6:50:24 PM, Lexicaholic wrote:
At 6/22/2009 6:48:45 AM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
SURVIVE.

This.

What???
It is odd when one's capacity for compassion is measured not in what he is willing to do by his own time, effort, and property, but what he will force others to do with their own property instead.
mongoose
Posts: 3,500
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6/22/2009 7:33:23 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 6/22/2009 3:37:47 PM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
At 6/22/2009 3:36:21 PM, mongoose wrote:
At 6/22/2009 10:16:48 AM, alto2osu wrote:
I maintain that pieces of myriad political/social theories combined into a single system will probably be the most successful. Hence, I support some of the concepts in Communism, but also of Socialism, of Capitalism, etc. Same goes with governmental systems. We don't really see successful, pure forms of government. We see hybrids and evolved governmental structures that have adjusted based on the interests of the people.

I will say that your debates have encouraged me to look further into Communist theory than I have in a long time, which is, in my mind, much more powerful than convincing me to be a Marxist. :) If my argument about hybridization is valid, then knowing enough about Communism to apply pieces of it in order to further improve quality of life for humanity is key to changing the world.

Show me one failed entirely capitalist nation.

According to Ragnar, no such state has existed. However, show me proof that Communist russia faired worse than the U.S. in the Wall Street Crash.

The U.S. is becoming more and more socialist every day...
It is odd when one's capacity for compassion is measured not in what he is willing to do by his own time, effort, and property, but what he will force others to do with their own property instead.
Lexicaholic
Posts: 526
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6/22/2009 7:49:47 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 6/22/2009 7:32:42 PM, mongoose wrote:
At 6/22/2009 6:50:24 PM, Lexicaholic wrote:
At 6/22/2009 6:48:45 AM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
SURVIVE.

This.

What???

Had to take a rare opportunity to be intentionally cryptic.
Survival is the basis of materialism. It's the basis of just about everything really. Any system that appears less likely to see that a greater number of cultures within any society survive is less likely to be accepted by that society. Right now enhancing wealth (possession of available resources) increases chances of survival (by increasing options). So long as our survival is dependent on materiality, people will be material and communism, as Kefka understands it, won't work.
http://mastersofcreationrpg.com... - My new site and long-developed project. Should be fun.
Rezzealaux
Posts: 2,251
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6/22/2009 8:10:12 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 6/22/2009 7:33:23 PM, mongoose wrote:
The U.S. is becoming more and more socialist every day...

The U.S. is becoming more and more fascist every day...

Fixed.
: If you weren't new here, you'd know not to feed me such attention. This is like an orgasm in my brain right now. *hehe, my name is in a title, hehe* (http://www.debate.org...)

Just in case I get into some BS with FREEDO again about how he's NOT a narcissist.

"The law is there to destroy evil under the constitutional government."
So... what's there to destroy evil inside of and above the constitutional government?
mongoose
Posts: 3,500
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6/22/2009 8:50:00 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
It's both, really.
It is odd when one's capacity for compassion is measured not in what he is willing to do by his own time, effort, and property, but what he will force others to do with their own property instead.
Ragnar_Rahl
Posts: 19,297
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6/23/2009 10:52:11 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
However, show me proof that Communist russia faired worse than the U.S. in the Wall Street Crash.

Which Wall Street Crash?

If you mean the current one, there aren't any famines right now.
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
Kefka
Posts: 49
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6/23/2009 5:28:01 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
Thank you for fixing his severely retarded quote. If it's socialism, then any monetary distribution should be EQUALLY distributed, but, oh wait, that's not how it's going down :D And yes, the U.S. is becoming extremely fascist, oh wait, again, it's been in that negative development stage almost since it's birth.

P.S. - I encourage people to watch The Obama Deception; it has pretty good sources, and provides a pretty good argument.
mongoose
Posts: 3,500
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6/23/2009 5:49:38 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 6/23/2009 5:28:01 PM, Kefka wrote:
Thank you for fixing his severely retarded quote. If it's socialism, then any monetary distribution should be EQUALLY distributed, but, oh wait, that's not how it's going down :D And yes, the U.S. is becoming extremely fascist, oh wait, again, it's been in that negative development stage almost since it's birth.

P.S. - I encourage people to watch The Obama Deception; it has pretty good sources, and provides a pretty good argument.

That's why it's getting closer and closer to socialism. More and more taxes on the rich, to distribute more and more to the poor.
It is odd when one's capacity for compassion is measured not in what he is willing to do by his own time, effort, and property, but what he will force others to do with their own property instead.
alto2osu
Posts: 277
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6/23/2009 6:34:08 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
Though I could go off on a tangent about deregulation & how much the last 8 years of "Capitalism" has crippled the US, two things:

1) Not the intention of the post :) I do believe that Kefka wants us to chime in on whether Communism is possible, not about the current state of affairs in the US and how we feel about socialist programs & movements.

2) To respond to Mongoose's original request: me naming or not naming a pure Capitalist system that has or has not succeeded is completely irrelevant to what I actually said.
wjmelements
Posts: 8,206
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6/23/2009 6:54:21 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
Anarcho-communism possible?

No.

Double utopia... what a joke.

In reality, without a defense, this would be impossible to do for an individual country.

For the whole world to adopt it (even if they did), man would naturally form government again and try to govern people. There'd be no governments to stop this new government from growing, and governments would form to defend against it.
Global anarchy could not last.

Communism in general is a dreadful system, and without a market surplus to create profit, wealth cannot occur. This is contradictory to human nature and cannot occur without a government to oppress the system on a population.
in the blink of an eye you finally see the light
Ragnar_Rahl
Posts: 19,297
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6/23/2009 7:26:48 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
So, you're an equality socialist? Not everyone who purports to be a socialist is you know. You people are confusing, you need to work these things out with each other. I describe my understanding of socialist to a socialist, they say "no no, that's communism." A communist says "no no, that's socialism." And another pair will reverse the descriptions utterly, still disagreeing, and yet another will make descriptions having nothing to do with the former. Judging from a few books on the subject, this has going back a long time.

So you have no solution to the motivation problem other than imagining an "Ethical man," whose ethics consist in his complete lack of valuation, i.e., lack of the purpose to having ethics in the first place?
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
Lexicaholic
Posts: 526
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6/23/2009 7:36:06 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 6/23/2009 7:26:48 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:

So you have no solution to the motivation problem other than imagining an "Ethical man," whose ethics consist in his complete lack of valuation, i.e., lack of the purpose to having ethics in the first place?

?? That kind of makes sense, actually. If you move beyond the need for the tool, I would suppose that you no longer have to worry about using it.
http://mastersofcreationrpg.com... - My new site and long-developed project. Should be fun.
Kefka
Posts: 49
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6/23/2009 7:48:30 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 6/23/2009 5:49:38 PM, mongoose wrote:
At 6/23/2009 5:28:01 PM, Kefka wrote:
Thank you for fixing his severely retarded quote. If it's socialism, then any monetary distribution should be EQUALLY distributed, but, oh wait, that's not how it's going down :D And yes, the U.S. is becoming extremely fascist, oh wait, again, it's been in that negative development stage almost since it's birth.

P.S. - I encourage people to watch The Obama Deception; it has pretty good sources, and provides a pretty good argument.

That's why it's getting closer and closer to socialism. More and more taxes on the rich, to distribute more and more to the poor.

I really should encourage you to reread what you put, and realize the tone of that haha. You should look into why there are 'poor' and 'rich' people. Be open minded about that; don't just say "well the rich people worked hard" and the "poor people are lazy", because if you do, you will just reinforce my assertion about you.

And I think you misunderstand our current state of affairs (though my quote was more for what Alto assumed). You should look deeper into what's really happening, not just what's on Fox or MSNBC haha.
mongoose
Posts: 3,500
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6/23/2009 7:57:21 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 6/23/2009 7:48:30 PM, Kefka wrote:
At 6/23/2009 5:49:38 PM, mongoose wrote:
At 6/23/2009 5:28:01 PM, Kefka wrote:
Thank you for fixing his severely retarded quote. If it's socialism, then any monetary distribution should be EQUALLY distributed, but, oh wait, that's not how it's going down :D And yes, the U.S. is becoming extremely fascist, oh wait, again, it's been in that negative development stage almost since it's birth.

P.S. - I encourage people to watch The Obama Deception; it has pretty good sources, and provides a pretty good argument.

That's why it's getting closer and closer to socialism. More and more taxes on the rich, to distribute more and more to the poor.

I really should encourage you to reread what you put, and realize the tone of that haha. You should look into why there are 'poor' and 'rich' people. Be open minded about that; don't just say "well the rich people worked hard" and the "poor people are lazy", because if you do, you will just reinforce my assertion about you.

And I think you misunderstand our current state of affairs (though my quote was more for what Alto assumed). You should look deeper into what's really happening, not just what's on Fox or MSNBC haha.

The question is not "why people are poor," but "why people are rich." They are rich because they have created wealth. The poor have not.

What's happening? Obama is trying to turn America into a socialist nation, like Europe is now. What are you trying to get at? Challenge me to a debate!
It is odd when one's capacity for compassion is measured not in what he is willing to do by his own time, effort, and property, but what he will force others to do with their own property instead.
Danielle
Posts: 21,330
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6/23/2009 8:25:55 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 6/22/2009 11:08:05 AM, Rezzealaux wrote:
Define "possible".

Do you ever have an opinion on something? Or do you just ask people to define things? "Define free will" -- "Define possible" -- etc. I think I found just the place for you:

www. dictionary.com

;D
President of DDO
Rezzealaux
Posts: 2,251
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6/23/2009 9:18:28 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 6/23/2009 8:25:55 PM, theLwerd wrote:
At 6/22/2009 11:08:05 AM, Rezzealaux wrote:
Define "possible".

Do you ever have an opinion on something? Or do you just ask people to define things? "Define free will" -- "Define possible" -- etc. I think I found just the place for you:

www. dictionary.com

;D

Every person has their own mental dictionary, and their uses for words aren't always the same as the one in a "real" dictionary. People don't go through dictionaries checking if their mental one is consistent with a "real" one. I find it more efficient to have them define it by their own terms and clear up things along the way with more questions, rather than answer by using definitions they don't use themselves, or by making them look up words themselves so they'd be politically correct.

I don't do that myself.
I don't expect anyone else to either.

As for opinions, I have a lot. I'm trying to be less opinionated though.
: If you weren't new here, you'd know not to feed me such attention. This is like an orgasm in my brain right now. *hehe, my name is in a title, hehe* (http://www.debate.org...)

Just in case I get into some BS with FREEDO again about how he's NOT a narcissist.

"The law is there to destroy evil under the constitutional government."
So... what's there to destroy evil inside of and above the constitutional government?
Ragnar_Rahl
Posts: 19,297
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6/23/2009 10:42:12 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
Use of "disregard that" fail.
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
Kefka
Posts: 49
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6/24/2009 12:26:08 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 6/23/2009 7:57:21 PM, mongoose wrote:
At 6/23/2009 7:48:30 PM, Kefka wrote:
At 6/23/2009 5:49:38 PM, mongoose wrote:
At 6/23/2009 5:28:01 PM, Kefka wrote:
Thank you for fixing his severely retarded quote. If it's socialism, then any monetary distribution should be EQUALLY distributed, but, oh wait, that's not how it's going down :D And yes, the U.S. is becoming extremely fascist, oh wait, again, it's been in that negative development stage almost since it's birth.

P.S. - I encourage people to watch The Obama Deception; it has pretty good sources, and provides a pretty good argument.

That's why it's getting closer and closer to socialism. More and more taxes on the rich, to distribute more and more to the poor.

I really should encourage you to reread what you put, and realize the tone of that haha. You should look into why there are 'poor' and 'rich' people. Be open minded about that; don't just say "well the rich people worked hard" and the "poor people are lazy", because if you do, you will just reinforce my assertion about you.

And I think you misunderstand our current state of affairs (though my quote was more for what Alto assumed). You should look deeper into what's really happening, not just what's on Fox or MSNBC haha.

The question is not "why people are poor," but "why people are rich." They are rich because they have created wealth. The poor have not.

What's happening? Obama is trying to turn America into a socialist nation, like Europe is now. What are you trying to get at? Challenge me to a debate!

Why people are rich eh? Well many reasons; inherent intelligence, determination to succeed, unwavering fortitude. But, we also have the success of others being destroyed by someone that 'proved' they were better, the manipulation and monopolization of a product, inherited and sustained wealth, taking advantage of a man's need for work to support a family, hiring as a worker, now times that by 1000x, and you have a factory. Now have the owner take credit for bringing his vision or product into reality, and acquire a large majority of the wealth. The list can go on.

I have a few questions/suggestions/statements.

Statement: I'm not too interested in a debate with you, sorry. I've seen your style of debate, and it really leads nowhere. This might be callous, but it's what I've observed. Also, this might be presumptuous, but I've probably addressed a lot of quarrels you have with Communism/Marxism/etc in one of my previous debates. If, I'm assuming, that's what you would like to debate about?

Question: Where do your political ideologies come from?

Suggestion: You should read the Manifesto, and maybe Das Kapital as well (I haven't read the latter, but I plan on it! What a hypocrite I am huh? hehe)

Question/Suggestion: "The Wii is the best gaming system on the market today" - Please explain. I can't comment on your profile so I must use this medium :D

"Someone who deprives another of the right to life does not deserve a right to life." - Please explain this too if you don't mind?
Kefka
Posts: 49
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6/24/2009 12:27:59 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 6/23/2009 8:26:47 PM, theLwerd wrote:
Ps. No, I don't think Communism is possible.

It's a sh1tty system and nobody would stand for it.

You make such a well qualified case L :D