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Single forfeits

phantom
Posts: 6,774
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6/11/2012 2:29:21 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
I've noticed for a little while that people, mainly new members, have been awarding the debate to one side just for a single forfeit. The entire time I've been on this site a single forfeit only resulted in loss of the conduct point until recentely.

I have to ask, why does everyone think one forfeit forfeits the entire debate, and why has it changed from just loss of the conduct point to what people think now?

I'd also like to ask some of the older members opinion on this.
"Music is a zen-like ecstatic state where you become the new man of the future, the Nietzschean merger of Apollo and Dionysus." Ray Manzarek (The Doors)
TUF
Posts: 21,310
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6/11/2012 2:33:12 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/11/2012 2:29:21 PM, phantom wrote:
I've noticed for a little while that people, mainly new members, have been awarding the debate to one side just for a single forfeit. The entire time I've been on this site a single forfeit only resulted in loss of the conduct point until recentely.

I have to ask, why does everyone think one forfeit forfeits the entire debate, and why has it changed from just loss of the conduct point to what people think now?

I'd also like to ask some of the older members opinion on this.

I feel Like a single forfeit automatically conducts in the loss of arguments and conduct.

Conduct for the obvious failure to put in an argument on time, and for accepting the debate and it's time limits.

Arguments due to failure to respond to an entire new set of arguments made against your case.
"I've got to go and grab a shirt" ~ Airmax1227
royalpaladin
Posts: 22,357
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6/11/2012 2:35:08 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Well, I think if the concession comes in the last round, the debate is conceded. This is because the opponent's responses were not directly addressed, and the last round is the most important round in any debate. I usually just award conduct if the forfeit is in another round.
TUF
Posts: 21,310
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6/11/2012 2:36:22 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
The solution is simple: Don't accept debates you may not be able to make an argument for. If something comes up randomly and you cannot make an argument on time, then it is unfortunate, but the potential loss of a debate is the demeaning consequence that follows. It is quite annoying to make a long well written argument, provide sources, and refute every single one of an opponents points, to have it simply be unread, and un argued. Then people will vote on it after seeing the forfeit without even reading the arguments, given forfeited debates are the easiest to judge. When both players respond throughout the whole debate, it is more likely your argument will be read.
"I've got to go and grab a shirt" ~ Airmax1227
phantom
Posts: 6,774
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6/11/2012 2:38:50 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/11/2012 2:33:12 PM, TUF wrote:
At 6/11/2012 2:29:21 PM, phantom wrote:
I've noticed for a little while that people, mainly new members, have been awarding the debate to one side just for a single forfeit. The entire time I've been on this site a single forfeit only resulted in loss of the conduct point until recentely.

I have to ask, why does everyone think one forfeit forfeits the entire debate, and why has it changed from just loss of the conduct point to what people think now?

I'd also like to ask some of the older members opinion on this.

I feel Like a single forfeit automatically conducts in the loss of arguments and conduct.

Conduct for the obvious failure to put in an argument on time, and for accepting the debate and it's time limits.

Arguments due to failure to respond to an entire new set of arguments made against your case.

I disagree. The only reason the person doesn't respond to the arguments was because he failed to post his response in time. You can't count it as a drop if there was no round for him to write anything.
"Music is a zen-like ecstatic state where you become the new man of the future, the Nietzschean merger of Apollo and Dionysus." Ray Manzarek (The Doors)
000ike
Posts: 11,196
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6/11/2012 2:40:10 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/11/2012 2:29:21 PM, phantom wrote:
I've noticed for a little while that people, mainly new members, have been awarding the debate to one side just for a single forfeit. The entire time I've been on this site a single forfeit only resulted in loss of the conduct point until recentely.

I have to ask, why does everyone think one forfeit forfeits the entire debate, and why has it changed from just loss of the conduct point to what people think now?

I'd also like to ask some of the older members opinion on this.

probably because they're too lazy to read the debate, so a forfeit gives them an excuse to deposit an illegitimate vote.
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
phantom
Posts: 6,774
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6/11/2012 2:40:18 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/11/2012 2:35:08 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
Well, I think if the concession comes in the last round, the debate is conceded. This is because the opponent's responses were not directly addressed, and the last round is the most important round in any debate. I usually just award conduct if the forfeit is in another round.

Last round is just tying everything together. The former rounds are where all the arguments and most of the evidence is introduced. I think those rounds matter the most.
"Music is a zen-like ecstatic state where you become the new man of the future, the Nietzschean merger of Apollo and Dionysus." Ray Manzarek (The Doors)
royalpaladin
Posts: 22,357
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6/11/2012 2:45:31 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/11/2012 2:40:18 PM, phantom wrote:
At 6/11/2012 2:35:08 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
Well, I think if the concession comes in the last round, the debate is conceded. This is because the opponent's responses were not directly addressed, and the last round is the most important round in any debate. I usually just award conduct if the forfeit is in another round.

Last round is just tying everything together.
That's the most important part of a debate round.
The former rounds are where all the arguments and most of the evidence is introduced. I think those rounds matter the most.
phantom
Posts: 6,774
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6/11/2012 2:48:54 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/11/2012 2:45:31 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 6/11/2012 2:40:18 PM, phantom wrote:
At 6/11/2012 2:35:08 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
Well, I think if the concession comes in the last round, the debate is conceded. This is because the opponent's responses were not directly addressed, and the last round is the most important round in any debate. I usually just award conduct if the forfeit is in another round.

Last round is just tying everything together.
That's the most important part of a debate round.

If you insist. I personally disagree but I suppose it is somewhat relative to the viewer.

The former rounds are where all the arguments and most of the evidence is introduced. I think those rounds matter the most.
"Music is a zen-like ecstatic state where you become the new man of the future, the Nietzschean merger of Apollo and Dionysus." Ray Manzarek (The Doors)
TUF
Posts: 21,310
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6/11/2012 2:48:59 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/11/2012 2:38:50 PM, phantom wrote:
At 6/11/2012 2:33:12 PM, TUF wrote:
At 6/11/2012 2:29:21 PM, phantom wrote:
I've noticed for a little while that people, mainly new members, have been awarding the debate to one side just for a single forfeit. The entire time I've been on this site a single forfeit only resulted in loss of the conduct point until recentely.

I have to ask, why does everyone think one forfeit forfeits the entire debate, and why has it changed from just loss of the conduct point to what people think now?

I'd also like to ask some of the older members opinion on this.

I feel Like a single forfeit automatically conducts in the loss of arguments and conduct.

Conduct for the obvious failure to put in an argument on time, and for accepting the debate and it's time limits.

Arguments due to failure to respond to an entire new set of arguments made against your case.

I disagree. The only reason the person doesn't respond to the arguments was because he failed to post his response in time. You can't count it as a drop if there was no round for him to write anything.

There was a round for him to write something in. His opponent basically wasted his time writing up to 8000 characters of rebuttal, just to have none of it refuted. The instigator chose the number of round for the debate for a specific reason. That is to fill each round with intellectual discussion and debate about the topic being discussed. By failing to respond, you show the viewers a lack of caring for the position in which is being debated, and is basically a concession to all the arguments made by your opponent.
"I've got to go and grab a shirt" ~ Airmax1227
phantom
Posts: 6,774
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6/11/2012 2:51:44 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/11/2012 2:48:59 PM, TUF wrote:
At 6/11/2012 2:38:50 PM, phantom wrote:
At 6/11/2012 2:33:12 PM, TUF wrote:
At 6/11/2012 2:29:21 PM, phantom wrote:
I've noticed for a little while that people, mainly new members, have been awarding the debate to one side just for a single forfeit. The entire time I've been on this site a single forfeit only resulted in loss of the conduct point until recentely.

I have to ask, why does everyone think one forfeit forfeits the entire debate, and why has it changed from just loss of the conduct point to what people think now?

I'd also like to ask some of the older members opinion on this.

I feel Like a single forfeit automatically conducts in the loss of arguments and conduct.

Conduct for the obvious failure to put in an argument on time, and for accepting the debate and it's time limits.

Arguments due to failure to respond to an entire new set of arguments made against your case.

I disagree. The only reason the person doesn't respond to the arguments was because he failed to post his response in time. You can't count it as a drop if there was no round for him to write anything.

There was a round for him to write something in. His opponent basically wasted his time writing up to 8000 characters of rebuttal, just to have none of it refuted. The instigator chose the number of round for the debate for a specific reason. That is to fill each round with intellectual discussion and debate about the topic being discussed. By failing to respond, you show the viewers a lack of caring for the position in which is being debated, and is basically a concession to all the arguments made by your opponent.

Yes, it is poor conduct, hence the conduct loss. But I don't think it's fair to count it as a concession. Drops should only count if your opponent actually writes something. Plus if it's not a last round forfeit, you can just respond in the next round.
"Music is a zen-like ecstatic state where you become the new man of the future, the Nietzschean merger of Apollo and Dionysus." Ray Manzarek (The Doors)
TUF
Posts: 21,310
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6/11/2012 2:57:32 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/11/2012 2:51:44 PM, phantom wrote:
At 6/11/2012 2:48:59 PM, TUF wrote:
At 6/11/2012 2:38:50 PM, phantom wrote:
At 6/11/2012 2:33:12 PM, TUF wrote:
At 6/11/2012 2:29:21 PM, phantom wrote:
I've noticed for a little while that people, mainly new members, have been awarding the debate to one side just for a single forfeit. The entire time I've been on this site a single forfeit only resulted in loss of the conduct point until recentely.

I have to ask, why does everyone think one forfeit forfeits the entire debate, and why has it changed from just loss of the conduct point to what people think now?

I'd also like to ask some of the older members opinion on this.

I feel Like a single forfeit automatically conducts in the loss of arguments and conduct.

Conduct for the obvious failure to put in an argument on time, and for accepting the debate and it's time limits.

Arguments due to failure to respond to an entire new set of arguments made against your case.

I disagree. The only reason the person doesn't respond to the arguments was because he failed to post his response in time. You can't count it as a drop if there was no round for him to write anything.

There was a round for him to write something in. His opponent basically wasted his time writing up to 8000 characters of rebuttal, just to have none of it refuted. The instigator chose the number of round for the debate for a specific reason. That is to fill each round with intellectual discussion and debate about the topic being discussed. By failing to respond, you show the viewers a lack of caring for the position in which is being debated, and is basically a concession to all the arguments made by your opponent.

Yes, it is poor conduct, hence the conduct loss. But I don't think it's fair to count it as a concession. Drops should only count if your opponent actually writes something. Plus if it's not a last round forfeit, you can just respond in the next round.

Then I agree to dis-agree with you. I will generally award arguments and conduct to the opponents of forfeits, for lack of argumentation. Lack of argumentation in any sense, is still lack of argumentation. If someone were to post in the round:

"I do not feel like responding to this in this round, so I will wait until the next round to respond to it."

Would you not deduct an argument point? The situation is virtually the same. They still wrote arguments but chose not too in that particular round. Doesn't make a difference to me. Aside from conduct, it shows a lack of caring from a debater. They had plenty of time (given that they accepted the debate) to do research, and excercise the debate. Them not taking advantage of that time limit is basically their fault.
"I've got to go and grab a shirt" ~ Airmax1227
renji_abarai
Posts: 113
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6/11/2012 4:34:48 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Why do new members always get the free wins? I mean it's extremely common for new members to get free wins and its rare-common for people in the 80s percentile to FF debates, but no experts get FF debates. The older members challenge the new members and they FF. Younger members barely ever FF with older members if they can help it. Shouldn't it be other way around?