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Why do counterplans...

C.Artificavitch
Posts: 11
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9/11/2009 8:44:46 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
I'll probably ask my debate coach on Monday when I get back to school but until then can anyone explain to me why a counterplan has to be untopical?
Friendship is like peeing on yourself: everyone can see it, but only you get the warm feeling that it brings.
Kleptin
Posts: 5,095
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9/11/2009 9:19:17 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 9/11/2009 8:44:46 PM, C.Artificavitch wrote:
I'll probably ask my debate coach on Monday when I get back to school but until then can anyone explain to me why a counterplan has to be untopical?

In the meanwhile, can someone explain to poor Kleptin what a "counterplan" is, and what "untopical" means >.>?
: At 5/2/2010 2:43:54 PM, innomen wrote:
It isn't about finding a theory, philosophy or doctrine and thinking it's the answer, but a practical application of one's experiences that is the answer.

: At 10/28/2010 2:40:07 PM, jharry wrote: I have already been given the greatest Gift that anyone could ever hope for [Life], I would consider myself selfish if I expected anything more.
dvhoose
Posts: 223
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9/11/2009 9:31:09 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 9/11/2009 9:19:17 PM, Kleptin wrote:

In the meanwhile, can someone explain to poor Kleptin what a "counterplan" is, and what "untopical" means >.>?

A counterplan is a policy term used to describe a negative team tactic of agreeing that there's a problem but that there's a better way to solve it. Untopical or Nontopical means it doesn't fall within the confines of the resolution.

To the OP, CP's have to be untopical to provide clash. I assume you're using this year's topic on poverty? If Aff gets up and says "We need to establish a living wage" and Neg gets up and says "We need to increase access to education", there's no clear winner. Maybe both teams provide adequate reasons why each plan should be done. It prevents both teams from reading their Affirmative case and enhances the quality of the debate overall. Now, if there's direct clash in the CP and Aff case, you can run a topical CP, but it HAS to be net beneficial and mutually exclusive. It doesn't happen often.

Hope that helps both of you :)
Xer
Posts: 7,776
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9/11/2009 9:31:35 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 9/11/2009 9:19:17 PM, Kleptin wrote:
At 9/11/2009 8:44:46 PM, C.Artificavitch wrote:
I'll probably ask my debate coach on Monday when I get back to school but until then can anyone explain to me why a counterplan has to be untopical?

In the meanwhile, can someone explain to poor Kleptin what a "counterplan" is, and what "untopical" means >.>?

Policy debate terms.

counterplan - is a component of argumentation theory commonly exploited in the activity of policy debate. While some conceptions of argumentation theory require the negative position in a debate to defend the status quo against an affirmative position or plan, a counterplan allows the negative to defend a separate plan or advocacy
http://en.wikipedia.org...

untopical - idk.. kinda hard to define

To answer the OP,
>The whole point of a counter-plan is to provide an alternative plan to the affirmative.

For example:

Affirmative Resolution
The United States should send aid to Africa.

Negative Counter-Plan
The United Nations should send aid to Africa.

Is that what you were looking for? Your quesion was kind of vague.
C.Artificavitch
Posts: 11
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9/12/2009 2:57:11 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
Thank you dvhoose. Can you give me an example of mutually exclusive and a definition of net beneficial please?
Friendship is like peeing on yourself: everyone can see it, but only you get the warm feeling that it brings.
SportsGuru
Posts: 1,648
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9/12/2009 3:39:24 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 9/12/2009 2:57:11 PM, C.Artificavitch wrote:
Thank you dvhoose. Can you give me an example of mutually exclusive and a definition of net beneficial please?

mutually exclusive: The plan and counterplan cannot be done at the same time. If the Aff plan is "Increase the minimum wage" and the CP is "Improve relations with China", you are going to have a hard time proving why both cannot be done. (If both can be done at the same time the Aff just has to perm the CP). However, if the Aff plan is "Increase the minimum wage" and the CP is "Decrease the minimum wage", the CP is mutually exclusive because you obviously cannot increase and decrease the minimum wage

net benefit: You need to prove why we should choose the CP over the plan. Otherwise there is no point to it. Say the Aff plan "Eating only Fried Chicken for lunch" with the advantage of happiness from being full. The Neg CP can be "Eating only salad for lunch"; It still has the Aff advantage of being full, with the NET BENIFIT of not becoming fat.
SportsGuru
Posts: 1,648
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9/12/2009 3:41:23 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 9/11/2009 9:31:09 PM, dvhoose wrote:
Now, if there's direct clash in the CP and Aff case, you can run a topical CP,

I happen to disagree; if the CP is topical, even if if the negative team wins that the CP is better, they are still AFFIRMING the resolution, resulting in an Affirmative win.
SportsGuru
Posts: 1,648
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9/12/2009 3:47:16 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 9/11/2009 9:31:09 PM, dvhoose wrote:

A counterplan is a policy term used to describe a negative team tactic of agreeing that there's a problem but that there's a better way to solve it.

Pardon the double post, but this is not neccesarliy true. A Neg team can use a CP to solve a completly different problem as long as they can prove the impacts of not solving it are bigger than the Aff's. Probably not done often though, if at all
Kleptin
Posts: 5,095
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9/12/2009 4:13:44 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
Oooooh... so *that's* a "counterplan".

I do that sometimes, but I don't call it a "counterplan", I call it "being an a**hole" XD

See:
http://www.debate.org...
: At 5/2/2010 2:43:54 PM, innomen wrote:
It isn't about finding a theory, philosophy or doctrine and thinking it's the answer, but a practical application of one's experiences that is the answer.

: At 10/28/2010 2:40:07 PM, jharry wrote: I have already been given the greatest Gift that anyone could ever hope for [Life], I would consider myself selfish if I expected anything more.
burningpuppies101
Posts: 1,268
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9/14/2009 4:05:43 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
So I do LD, but a counter plan is still a counter plan.

Purpose of a counter plan: to offer a counter advocacy to the Affirmative's plan, which is to affirm the resolution. So instead of saying that the USFG should send aid to Africa, The US, and the UN should do it. The Negative would try to prove why having both the US and the UN doing it would be better than just the US doing it.

Now, a counter plan has to have several parts:

A. Plantext. Basically, what your CP says.
B. Competitiveness. WHy your plan is better than the AFF, so you should choose this one
C. Solvency. Why your plan would work in the first place.
D. Exclusivity. Why the aff can't just stand up and say that you should do both.

Some people will also try to argue that their CP's are conditional or unconditional. What this means is that if it is conditional, that means that the negative can stand up and say, it's ok, drop my CP, i'll move to something else. This is usually quite easy fought against for the AFF, since you can just pull out an easy theory shell about time skew and what not.

Now, others will argue that their CP is unconditional, which means that they are showing a commitment to their argument, and that if they win the CP, they win, but if they lose the CP, they agree that they have lost the debate.
Omnes te moriturum amant 

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Charlie_Danger
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9/14/2009 10:02:04 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
I have a lot of cases for this LD topic, with a lot of policy APT's and NCP's
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SportsGuru
Posts: 1,648
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9/15/2009 10:43:09 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 9/14/2009 10:04:07 PM, Charlie_Danger wrote:
The AFF needs to provide Alts/PT's in this rez

No, the Aff must merely prove it is not advisable for students to be forced to passed standardized exit exams to graduate.
burningpuppies101
Posts: 1,268
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9/15/2009 9:13:38 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 9/14/2009 10:04:07 PM, Charlie_Danger wrote:
The AFF needs to provide Alts/PT's in this rez

WHOA! That is a huge lie! You just need to affirm the resolution! Any Alt/CP is automatically NEG ground. If you argue for anything other than against HSEE's, then you're arguing against yourself.
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Metz
Posts: 14
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9/18/2009 12:29:10 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 9/15/2009 9:13:38 PM, burningpuppies101 wrote:
At 9/14/2009 10:04:07 PM, Charlie_Danger wrote:
The AFF needs to provide Alts/PT's in this rez

WHOA! That is a huge lie! You just need to affirm the resolution! Any Alt/CP is automatically NEG ground. If you argue for anything other than against HSEE's, then you're arguing against yourself.

Depends on the Interp... I have 3 Alt Affs and Two Non Alt Affs.... Granted two of the alt Aff's are Kritiks....

And also Besides being run conditional or unconditional and CP can also be run dispositional. Also burningpuppies you forgot a couple pieces... And competitiveness and Exclusivity are the same... the Term is Net Benefits. Also, if you are running one in LD dont forget a criterion... a CP is useless without a Criterion or a link-in. ALSO YOU NEED SOLVENCY!!!

And The theory argument on condo CP's is rather weak... I personally find that the hypo-testing paradigm is interesting and voting on potential abuse. You got hurt with Time-Skew yes but this is why we make turns children. They can't kick your offense... its called dropping it. So if you can put a couple Turns on a CP the condo shell isn't needed.

For answering CP's I would go
1. Perm(do both)(challenge exclusive)
2. Turn Benefits
3. defensive takeouts of benefits
4. Condo Theory (if condo)
5. CP Theory
6. Advocate the Perm
7. Sever Perm(please god no...)
The first three are generally your best bet however....

This is normally the point where I will go on a long explanation of why K's are better but I will attempt to restrain myself
"And Thus Spake Zarathustra"-- Friedrich Nietzsche