Total Posts:33|Showing Posts:1-30|Last Page
Jump to topic:

Fixing Noob-Sniping

royalpaladin
Posts: 22,357
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/29/2012 1:41:37 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
I have seen a great deal of new debaters leaving the site, and my guess is that one of the reasons is that they often lose a number of debates. I think we ought to create a noob tournament so that we can get them interested in the site and focusing on retaining new members.
Man-is-good
Posts: 6,871
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/29/2012 1:45:02 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Hmmm...an interesting idea, I have to admit. It might be an efficient way to allow such noobs to learn--in practice--the necessary technique, work ethic, style, and so forth needed for writing; the competitive spirit and collaborative effort might prove to be additional assets, as well as other efforts--determining subjects, definitions, and following the conventional rules of the tournament.

The problem would be then, as of this moment,--when would it be held (regularly, I presume)?
"Homo sum, humani nihil a me alienum puto." --Terence

"I believe that the mind can be permanently profaned by the habit of attending to trivial things, so that all our thoughts shall be tinged with triviality."--Thoreau
royalpaladin
Posts: 22,357
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/29/2012 1:47:11 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/29/2012 1:45:02 PM, Man-is-good wrote:
Hmmm...an interesting idea, I have to admit. It might be an efficient way to allow such noobs to learn--in practice--the necessary technique, work ethic, style, and so forth needed for writing; the competitive spirit and collaborative effort might prove to be additional assets, as well as other efforts--determining subjects, definitions, and following the conventional rules of the tournament.

The problem would be then, as of this moment,--when would it be held (regularly, I presume)?

I think monthly tournaments would be fun.
Man-is-good
Posts: 6,871
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/29/2012 1:49:14 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/29/2012 1:47:11 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 8/29/2012 1:45:02 PM, Man-is-good wrote:
Hmmm...an interesting idea, I have to admit. It might be an efficient way to allow such noobs to learn--in practice--the necessary technique, work ethic, style, and so forth needed for writing; the competitive spirit and collaborative effort might prove to be additional assets, as well as other efforts--determining subjects, definitions, and following the conventional rules of the tournament.

The problem would be then, as of this moment,--when would it be held (regularly, I presume)?

I think monthly tournaments would be fun.

Well...I am certainly not my best, at least in discernment, but would you want this tournament to be informal or formally conducted (i.e. with Airmax's involvement, for example)?
"Homo sum, humani nihil a me alienum puto." --Terence

"I believe that the mind can be permanently profaned by the habit of attending to trivial things, so that all our thoughts shall be tinged with triviality."--Thoreau
BlackVoid
Posts: 9,170
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/29/2012 2:27:27 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Monthly tournaments just wouldn't be possible. I ran one of these a long time ago, and even though it should run smoothly on paper, people always take much longer to agree on topics and start rounds than they should, even if nagged.

Most regular tournaments take 3-4 months or more. So doing them on that interval of time makes the most sense.
THEBOMB
Posts: 2,872
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/29/2012 2:31:18 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/29/2012 1:41:37 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
I have seen a great deal of new debaters leaving the site, and my guess is that one of the reasons is that they often lose a number of debates. I think we ought to create a noob tournament so that we can get them interested in the site and focusing on retaining new members.

Good idea :) monthly tournaments would help. But, if I may add, how about have more active, veteran members both advise and choose topics (have two topics which the ppl involved have to choose from) for each of the pairs. This way it runs more smoothly and people don't get bored. Then we can declare a winner much more smoothly.
GenesisCreation
Posts: 496
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/29/2012 2:33:50 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Actually, (I can't believe I'm saying this)....isn't this just natural selection at work?
Um....You've got a log in your eye.
"I would be suspicious of an argument without any concessions." - John Dickson
imabench
Posts: 21,206
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/29/2012 2:34:59 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Hey, noob sniping is a right of passage on DDO. When I first joined I got my a** handed to me by debaters but I adjusted and became as close as normal and acceptable as I could be.

besides, it weeds out the weak stupid ones
Kevin24018 : "He's just so mean it makes me want to ball up my fists and stamp on the ground"

7/14/16 = The Presidency Dies

DDO: THE MOVIE = http://www.debate.org...
http://www.debate.org...

VP of DDO from Dec 14th 2014 to Jan 1st 2015
THEBOMB
Posts: 2,872
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/29/2012 2:35:27 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/29/2012 2:33:50 PM, GenesisCreation wrote:
Actually, (I can't believe I'm saying this)....isn't this just natural selection at work?

Not really. You can win in a debate simply by being a better debater. Some very intelligent people just don't know how to put their words down in a coherent thought.
royalpaladin
Posts: 22,357
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/29/2012 2:36:10 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/29/2012 2:33:50 PM, GenesisCreation wrote:
Actually, (I can't believe I'm saying this)....isn't this just natural selection at work?

No. The experienced debaters snipe the new ones. How are they supposed to learn?
BlackVoid
Posts: 9,170
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/29/2012 2:37:36 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/29/2012 2:36:10 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 8/29/2012 2:33:50 PM, GenesisCreation wrote:
Actually, (I can't believe I'm saying this)....isn't this just natural selection at work?

No. The experienced debaters snipe the new ones. How are they supposed to learn?

Well if they face an experienced debater and get crushed, at least they see what a strong argument is supposed to look like.
Koopin
Posts: 12,090
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/29/2012 2:39:10 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Don't listen to the woman's poisoned tongued speech. The n00bs must die. If they can get through the fire, then they are worthy to stay. Instead of a noob tournament. We need the Noob hunger games. A flame war were only one noob gets to stay.

LONG LIVE THE DDO CAPITAL!!
kfc
royalpaladin
Posts: 22,357
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/29/2012 2:39:26 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/29/2012 2:37:36 PM, BlackVoid wrote:
At 8/29/2012 2:36:10 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 8/29/2012 2:33:50 PM, GenesisCreation wrote:
Actually, (I can't believe I'm saying this)....isn't this just natural selection at work?

No. The experienced debaters snipe the new ones. How are they supposed to learn?

Well if they face an experienced debater and get crushed, at least they see what a strong argument is supposed to look like.

Yes, but it damages their pride in the process and they then leave . . .

I mean, we could collect a list of good debates to demonstrate what a strong argument is.
FREEDO
Posts: 21,057
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/29/2012 2:41:33 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
To be honest, it's probably a good thing that we have it. The quality of the user-base would be reduced if we didn't have a process of natural selection which discouraged bad debaters. There's plenty of people here who started off fine from the beginning because they're smart. If you're smart, it doesn't really matter much if you're experienced in debate before, you'll do fine.

And I could also point out that noobs have the same capacity to debate other noobs that anyone else does already.
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord
imabench
Posts: 21,206
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/29/2012 2:43:47 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/29/2012 2:41:33 PM, FREEDO wrote:
To be honest, it's probably a good thing that we have it. The quality of the user-base would be reduced if we didn't have a process of natural selection which discouraged bad debaters.

^ This to the max
Kevin24018 : "He's just so mean it makes me want to ball up my fists and stamp on the ground"

7/14/16 = The Presidency Dies

DDO: THE MOVIE = http://www.debate.org...
http://www.debate.org...

VP of DDO from Dec 14th 2014 to Jan 1st 2015
Man-is-good
Posts: 6,871
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/29/2012 2:50:59 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/29/2012 2:27:27 PM, BlackVoid wrote:
Monthly tournaments just wouldn't be possible. I ran one of these a long time ago, and even though it should run smoothly on paper, people always take much longer to agree on topics and start rounds than they should, even if nagged.

Most regular tournaments take 3-4 months or more. So doing them on that interval of time makes the most sense.

Hmmm...this is actually quite true. Tournaments take quite some time, so I'd recommend a roster of members who volunteer and try to qualify as moderators of the tournament...just as how Airmax engineered the first official tournament. :)
"Homo sum, humani nihil a me alienum puto." --Terence

"I believe that the mind can be permanently profaned by the habit of attending to trivial things, so that all our thoughts shall be tinged with triviality."--Thoreau
Danielle
Posts: 21,330
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/29/2012 2:58:42 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/29/2012 2:34:59 PM, imabench wrote:
Hey, noob sniping is a right of passage on DDO. When I first joined I got my a** handed to me by debaters but I adjusted and became as close as normal and acceptable as I could be.

besides, it weeds out the weak stupid ones

Exactly what I was thinking.
President of DDO
TheHitchslap
Posts: 1,231
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/29/2012 3:44:09 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/29/2012 2:43:47 PM, imabench wrote:
At 8/29/2012 2:41:33 PM, FREEDO wrote:
To be honest, it's probably a good thing that we have it. The quality of the user-base would be reduced if we didn't have a process of natural selection which discouraged bad debaters.

^ This to the max

Problem is we still have Royal here ... -.-
http://s1188.photobucket.com...
http://cheezburger.com...
Thank you for voting!
Lordknukle
Posts: 12,788
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/29/2012 3:46:29 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/29/2012 3:44:09 PM, TheHitchslap wrote:
At 8/29/2012 2:43:47 PM, imabench wrote:
At 8/29/2012 2:41:33 PM, FREEDO wrote:
To be honest, it's probably a good thing that we have it. The quality of the user-base would be reduced if we didn't have a process of natural selection which discouraged bad debaters.

^ This to the max

Problem is we still have Royal here ... -.-
http://s1188.photobucket.com...
http://cheezburger.com...

If you are going to insult her, then at best call her beliefs moronic- which they are- or the way she portrays them as insensitive and annoying- which she does- or as having a general negative personality. Calling her stupid is just disingenuous.
"Easy is the descent to Avernus, for the door to the Underworld lies upon both day and night. But to retrace your steps and return to the breezes above- that's the task, that's the toil."
TheHitchslap
Posts: 1,231
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/29/2012 3:49:46 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/29/2012 3:46:29 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
At 8/29/2012 3:44:09 PM, TheHitchslap wrote:
At 8/29/2012 2:43:47 PM, imabench wrote:
At 8/29/2012 2:41:33 PM, FREEDO wrote:
To be honest, it's probably a good thing that we have it. The quality of the user-base would be reduced if we didn't have a process of natural selection which discouraged bad debaters.

^ This to the max

Problem is we still have Royal here ... -.-
http://s1188.photobucket.com...
http://cheezburger.com...

If you are going to insult her, then at best call her beliefs moronic- which they are- or the way she portrays them as insensitive and annoying- which she does- or as having a general negative personality. Calling her stupid is just disingenuous.

This woman is a radical feminist who wishes to cut off the d!cks of every member of this site merely to show her pseudo-vaginal superiority all the while giving public speeches to the members of DDO riddled with Bushisms ... though somehow I think with the stupid things she has said (my sig) that would be more of an insult to Bush ..

better?
Thank you for voting!
Lordknukle
Posts: 12,788
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/29/2012 3:53:31 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/29/2012 3:49:46 PM, TheHitchslap wrote:
At 8/29/2012 3:46:29 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
At 8/29/2012 3:44:09 PM, TheHitchslap wrote:
At 8/29/2012 2:43:47 PM, imabench wrote:
At 8/29/2012 2:41:33 PM, FREEDO wrote:
To be honest, it's probably a good thing that we have it. The quality of the user-base would be reduced if we didn't have a process of natural selection which discouraged bad debaters.

^ This to the max

Problem is we still have Royal here ... -.-
http://s1188.photobucket.com...
http://cheezburger.com...

If you are going to insult her, then at best call her beliefs moronic- which they are- or the way she portrays them as insensitive and annoying- which she does- or as having a general negative personality. Calling her stupid is just disingenuous.

This woman is a radical feminist who wishes to cut off the d!cks of every member of this site merely to show her pseudo-vaginal superiority all the while giving public speeches to the members of DDO riddled with Bushisms ... though somehow I think with the stupid things she has said (my sig) that would be more of an insult to Bush ..

better?

Yup.
"Easy is the descent to Avernus, for the door to the Underworld lies upon both day and night. But to retrace your steps and return to the breezes above- that's the task, that's the toil."
F-16_Fighting_Falcon
Posts: 18,324
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/29/2012 6:49:57 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
I like the idea of Noob tournaments for a different reason than Royal suggested.

I don't think that noob-tournaments should be a way to insulate new members from the horrors of noob sniping. Noob-sniping is actually beneficial to the noob. It is difficult nowadays to find an experienced debater who wants to debate topics that you do. Most open challenges by experienced debaters end up being taken by noobs. However, as a noob, you have a rare opportunity to pit your skills against experienced debaters. I remember my first real debate losing to thett3 on the Death Penalty. But that didn't discourage me, it only made me want to improve my skills in debating. I was fascinated with debate terminology like "contention", "turn" etc. Yeah, laugh all you want, I didn't formally debate in real life, only started debating here. So, the point is, debating experienced debaters inspires noobs to become better.

I was part of the noob tournament that BlackVoid was referring to in his earlier post. Most of us looked at it as a way to challenge ourselves as opposed to looking at them as easy wins due to an artificial cap on skill level of our opponents So, noob tournaments are great to meet people and make them want to stay on this site so I highly encourage them and suggest Royal or BlackVoid start the next ones (why not?)

As to how will the noobs learn by getting "crushed" by experienced debaters? Well, anyone who wants to improve will look at their crushing defeats as opportunities to learn as opposed to wallowing in the misery of their loss. If members wants to simply rack up wins and not improve their skills and will leave if they can't win, they are not a bug loss to the site.
16kadams
Posts: 10,497
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/29/2012 6:55:28 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/29/2012 2:36:10 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 8/29/2012 2:33:50 PM, GenesisCreation wrote:
Actually, (I can't believe I'm saying this)....isn't this just natural selection at work?

No. The experienced debaters snipe the new ones. How are they supposed to learn?

That happened to me.
https://www.youtube.com...
https://rekonomics.wordpress.com...
"A trend is a trend, but the question is, will it bend? Will it alter its course through some unforeseen force and come to a premature end?" -- Alec Cairncross
TUF
Posts: 21,297
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/29/2012 7:00:32 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
I don't detest noob tournaments.

I don't think noob sniping is a problem though. They can change their advanced options to make it so only people with 10 or less debates can accept. They can also change age criteria, and rank, etc.
"I've got to go and grab a shirt" ~ Airmax1227
Ore_Ele
Posts: 25,980
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/29/2012 7:01:39 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/29/2012 2:34:59 PM, imabench wrote:
Hey, noob sniping is a right of passage on DDO. When I first joined I got my a** handed to me by debaters but I adjusted and became as close as normal and acceptable as I could be.

besides, it weeds out the weak stupid ones

Imabench, you shouldn't say things like "I adjusted and became as close as normal" to defend a point. Just saying.
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"