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Where are the new ELO rating updates?

famer
Posts: 679
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9/12/2012 5:17:02 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
http://www.debate.org...

Last update for the ELO ratings was submitted by Ore_Ele 10 months ago.

Just wondering, are we doing this ELO ratings anymore? Or am I missing something?

Btw, I only figured out about that forum like 3 days ago.
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phantom
Posts: 6,774
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9/12/2012 10:45:24 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
Last update was 2 months ago actually. http://www.debate.org...
"Music is a zen-like ecstatic state where you become the new man of the future, the Nietzschean merger of Apollo and Dionysus." Ray Manzarek (The Doors)
nate.DDOqa
Posts: 58
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9/12/2012 11:17:51 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/12/2012 5:17:02 AM, famer wrote:
http://www.debate.org...

Last update for the ELO ratings was submitted by Ore_Ele 10 months ago.

Just wondering, are we doing this ELO ratings anymore? Or am I missing something?

Btw, I only figured out about that forum like 3 days ago.

Famer,

Ore_Ele and I have been in communication for some time now about ELO. I recently found some bugs in his formula so we are presently tweaking what we have developed to give the community the best experience when using this feature. This is definitely a work in progress and we are as anxious to get it out to you as you are seeing it in action.

Thank you,
Nate
famer
Posts: 679
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9/13/2012 3:56:21 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/12/2012 11:17:51 AM, nate.DDOqa wrote:
At 9/12/2012 5:17:02 AM, famer wrote:
http://www.debate.org...

Last update for the ELO ratings was submitted by Ore_Ele 10 months ago.

Just wondering, are we doing this ELO ratings anymore? Or am I missing something?

Btw, I only figured out about that forum like 3 days ago.

Famer,

Ore_Ele and I have been in communication for some time now about ELO. I recently found some bugs in his formula so we are presently tweaking what we have developed to give the community the best experience when using this feature. This is definitely a work in progress and we are as anxious to get it out to you as you are seeing it in action.

Thank you,
Nate

Oh right. I wasn't critizing the ELO ratings or anything. I was just curious when they were comming. That's all.

When will the updates for the new ELO ratings be up? I'm curious.

Also, what happens to people with high ELO ratings who don't do debates anymore? E.g. Contradiction was on the list, but he hasn't been online for about 3 weeks now. Do their ratings still stay there?
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RoyLatham
Posts: 4,488
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9/13/2012 5:46:13 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
The updates of two months ago were later declared invalid http://www.debate.org... because it didn't include the code for the contender advantage. The scores are not totally invalid, but not the latest thinking.

The basic Elo formula is simple. It's given in Wikipedia. http://en.wikipedia.org... Refinements to reflect better statistical models of player abilities make it more difficult to implement, but it's still pretty straightforward. Obviously implementing it on DDO is a low priority.

BTW, Elo is a guy's name, so it's really Elo rather than ELO.
famer
Posts: 679
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9/13/2012 5:59:11 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/13/2012 5:46:13 AM, RoyLatham wrote:
The updates of two months ago were later declared invalid http://www.debate.org... because it didn't include the code for the contender advantage. The scores are not totally invalid, but not the latest thinking.

The basic Elo formula is simple. It's given in Wikipedia. http://en.wikipedia.org... Refinements to reflect better statistical models of player abilities make it more difficult to implement, but it's still pretty straightforward. Obviously implementing it on DDO is a low priority.

BTW, Elo is a guy's name, so it's really Elo rather than ELO.

Contender advantage?? How does that work? I mean, surely the Instigator would have some form of prior knowledge of what they're about to debate, meaning that if anyone has an advantage, it should be the Instigator?
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RoyLatham
Posts: 4,488
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9/13/2012 6:17:45 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
From an earlier debate on the subject: "Of the many thousands of debates on Debate.org, 13,285 have not ended in a draw. Of those, the Instigator has won 4,578 of them and the Contender has won 8,680 of them." http://www.debate.org...

No one knows for sure why the Contender wins more often. One theory is that the Contender gets to make the final argument. Theoretically, there are not supposed to be any new arguments in the final round, but they do creep in.

My theory is that the contender advantage basically comes from noob sniping. When an open challenge is posted, an experienced debater will quickly see a flaw in the wording of the resolution, or he may have debated the subject before and know successful arguments. Thus, many challenges are only accepted because the Contender has a good reason to believe he will win. It would be like experienced chess players mainly choosing to play inexperienced ones.

My theory is unproven. It could be tested statistically by seeing if the Contender usually has a higher Elo rating that the Instigator. another test would be to see if the Contender wins more often when the debaters have approximately equal ranks.
famer
Posts: 679
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9/13/2012 6:58:30 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/13/2012 6:17:45 AM, RoyLatham wrote:
From an earlier debate on the subject: "Of the many thousands of debates on Debate.org, 13,285 have not ended in a draw. Of those, the Instigator has won 4,578 of them and the Contender has won 8,680 of them." http://www.debate.org...

No one knows for sure why the Contender wins more often. One theory is that the Contender gets to make the final argument. Theoretically, there are not supposed to be any new arguments in the final round, but they do creep in.

My theory is that the contender advantage basically comes from noob sniping. When an open challenge is posted, an experienced debater will quickly see a flaw in the wording of the resolution, or he may have debated the subject before and know successful arguments. Thus, many challenges are only accepted because the Contender has a good reason to believe he will win. It would be like experienced chess players mainly choosing to play inexperienced ones.

My theory is unproven. It could be tested statistically by seeing if the Contender usually has a higher Elo rating that the Instigator. another test would be to see if the Contender wins more often when the debaters have approximately equal ranks.

I suppose the noob-sniping (as well as the use of semantics) and having a good reason to believe he/she will win is a good reason to have the contender advantage.

Contender also tend to be able to have a last round of defence/rebuttals at the end of the debate which probably gives them that small advantage. Just me thinking about it at different angles now.
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