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question the ToS

Smithereens
Posts: 5,512
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10/15/2012 2:44:54 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
There are somethings that I wish to know regarding to terms of service. The section marks eligibility reads (c) if you are under the age of 18 you have permission from your legal guardian to utilize Debate.org Services.
Question: really? will I get banned for failing to do so?

(d) Your use of the Debate.org Services does not violate any applicable law or regulation.
Question: What is this applicable law?

(e) Your profile may be deleted and your Membership may be terminated without warning, if we believe you are not "eligible" to utilize the site's services.
Question: Does this mean they can ban someone on a hunch?

Will not upload, copy, distribute, share, or otherwise use Content that is unlawful, obscene, defamatory, libelous, harmful, hateful, harassing, pornographic, threatening, racially or ethnically offensive, abusive, that would violate another person's rights, constitute or encourage a criminal offense, give rise to civil liability, or violate any local, state, national, or international law or regulation, or that is otherwise inappropriate.
Question: the statement dealing with racially or ethnically offensive. Does the definition of ethnically extend to religion?

Will not upload, copy, distribute, share, or otherwise use Content that contains or embodies software viruses, worms, Trojan horses, bugs, or any other malicious computer code that is designed to interrupt, undermine, destroy, or limit the functionality of any computer software, hardware, or telecommunications equipment, or that is designed to perform functions on any software, hardware, or equipment without the owner's express consent.
Question: a simple batch file command or java-script that is not recognised as a virus by any retail database is not a virus, but it is only malicious if it is used maliciously, since it is not malicious software. If it is not being used by me maliciously, then I can post one of these scripts on DDO with the intent of education and have everyone else use it maliciously.

Will not translate, reverse engineer, decompile, disassemble, modify, or create derivative works based on the Service, in whole or in part.
Question: the service is the debates provided, does this mean that its against the ToS to translate a debate from another language?

Will not circumvent, disable, violate, or otherwise interfere with any security related feature of the Service, or any technology or feature that restricts or prevents copying or use of Content or that enforces limitations on use of the Service or Content.
Question: Is white hat hacking against the rules as well?

No use of profanities or swear words.
Question: Does this mean everyone should be banned?

Juggle shall not be held liable for any delay or failure in performance resulting directly or indirectly from acts of nature, forces, or causes beyond Juggle's reasonable control, including without limitation other equipment failures, electrical power failures, strikes, labor disputes, riots, insurrections, civil disturbances, shortages of labor or materials, fires, floods, storms, explosions, acts of God, war, governmental actions, orders of domestic or foreign courts or tribunals, non-performance of Third-Parties, or loss of or fluctuations in heating, lighting, or air conditioning.
Question: LOL, firstly, is it really necessary to disclaim damage caused by 'acts of God?' I acknowledge his existence, but God is not going to interfere with DDO as far as I'm concerned.
Secondly, why is Juggle disclaiming damage caused to 'fluctuations in heating, lighting, or air conditioning.' Isn't that a bit extreme?

IN NO EVENT SHALL Juggle BE LIABLE TO YOU OR ANY THIRD PERSON FOR ANY INDIRECT, GENERAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL, INCIDENTAL, EXEMPLARY, PUNITIVE, OR OTHER DAMAGES, INCLUDING WITHOUT LIMITATION DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF REVENUE OR INCOME, BUSINESS INTERRUPTION, CORRUPTION OF DATA, PERSONAL INJURY, DEATH, PAIN AND SUFFERING, EMOTIONAL DISTRESS, OR ANY OTHER TANGIBLE OR INTANGIBLE LOSS ARISING FROM YOUR USE OF THE SITE OR SERVICE, EVEN IF Juggle HAS BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES.
Question: So, is Juggle allowed to do whatever it wants to its members even if it causes death?

Juggle reserves the right, in its sole discretion, to modify, delete, or otherwise change a Member's username, URL address, content, or account with or without notice, at any time, and without liability.
Question: If they change something to perform something defamitory, are they excused from the crime because of this agreement?

If you do not agree to these terms and conditions of use, you may not access or otherwise use the Website.
Question: Lets assume that the rules are not perfect and I disagree with them, will this rule stop me from cotacting Juggle? Since their contact details are here on this site?

This Agreement may be modified by Juggle from time to time, such modifications to be effective upon posting by Juggle on the Website.
Question: so if DDO has the right to change the rules to make it something really unreasonable which will give them grounds to sue you, (yes, it has to be 'you' since it can't be 'me') would you have a reasonable defense?

Its not like I doubt the accuracy or preciseness of the ToS, i just dont understand these few things. :)
Music composition contest: http://www.debate.org...
airmax1227
Posts: 13,245
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10/15/2012 3:42:04 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/15/2012 2:44:54 AM, Smithereens wrote:
There are somethings that I wish to know regarding to terms of service. The section marks eligibility reads (c) if you are under the age of 18 you have permission from your legal guardian to utilize Debate.org Services.
Question: really? will I get banned for failing to do so?

There is an implied permission from your parents or legal guardian if you are using the site. Juggle is not required to contact the parents of all the minor members of the site as the TOS explicitly states that this is required as part of their use of the site.

In other words, if your parents get angry because of content of the site, it is their responsibility to police your internet usage and not the sites ownership.


(d) Your use of the Debate.org Services does not violate any applicable law or regulation.
Question: What is this applicable law?

If a law exists where you live that prohibits use of DDO, that would be a violation of an applicable law. There is no "applicable law" prohibiting use of DDO where most members live. By using DDO, you imply that there is no applicable law against it where you live.


(e) Your profile may be deleted and your Membership may be terminated without warning, if we believe you are not "eligible" to utilize the site's services.
Question: Does this mean they can ban someone on a hunch?


Juggle reserves the right to revoke the membership of any member based on whatever they deem necessary. Juggle however is not inclined to simply ban someone without reasonable cause.

Will not upload, copy, distribute, share, or otherwise use Content that is unlawful, obscene, defamatory, libelous, harmful, hateful, harassing, pornographic, threatening, racially or ethnically offensive, abusive, that would violate another person's rights, constitute or encourage a criminal offense, give rise to civil liability, or violate any local, state, national, or international law or regulation, or that is otherwise inappropriate.
Question: the statement dealing with racially or ethnically offensive. Does the definition of ethnically extend to religion?

Members should refrain from abusive behavior. On a debate site such as this, there is a large grey area and the line from reasonable exchange to what is described in the disclaimer is often difficult to objectively evaluate. If at any point you feel such a thing is being posted, please report it and contact the appropriate authorities.

Will not upload, copy, distribute, share, or otherwise use Content that contains or embodies software viruses, worms, Trojan horses, bugs, or any other malicious computer code that is designed to interrupt, undermine, destroy, or limit the functionality of any computer software, hardware, or telecommunications equipment, or that is designed to perform functions on any software, hardware, or equipment without the owner's express consent.
Question: a simple batch file command or java-script that is not recognised as a virus by any retail database is not a virus, but it is only malicious if it is used maliciously, since it is not malicious software. If it is not being used by me maliciously, then I can post one of these scripts on DDO with the intent of education and have everyone else use it maliciously.

Intent and outcome would necessarily have to be evaluated in any situation being described in the TOS. I think most members who have no ill intent understand what they should not upload or distribute to the site, and if in doubt refrain from distributing anything being described in the above.

Will not translate, reverse engineer, decompile, disassemble, modify, or create derivative works based on the Service, in whole or in part.
Question: the service is the debates provided, does this mean that its against the ToS to translate a debate from another language?

Will not circumvent, disable, violate, or otherwise interfere with any security related feature of the Service, or any technology or feature that restricts or prevents copying or use of Content or that enforces limitations on use of the Service or Content.
Question: Is white hat hacking against the rules as well?

I'm not familiar enough with this, so I don't understand the question. I'd refrain from doing anything on DDO with the term hacking in it though.

No use of profanities or swear words.
Question: Does this mean everyone should be banned?

People should refrain from cursing in the forums and in debates. Juggle and other members would like this to be a site safe for children and for use in educational institutions. Cursing doesn't ever add anything to ones arguments and is rarely useful. With that said, banning for it is not common.

Juggle shall not be held liable for any delay or failure in performance resulting directly or indirectly from acts of nature, forces, or causes beyond Juggle's reasonable control, including without limitation other equipment failures, electrical power failures, strikes, labor disputes, riots, insurrections, civil disturbances, shortages of labor or materials, fires, floods, storms, explosions, acts of God, war, governmental actions, orders of domestic or foreign courts or tribunals, non-performance of Third-Parties, or loss of or fluctuations in heating, lighting, or air conditioning.
Question: LOL, firstly, is it really necessary to disclaim damage caused by 'acts of God?' I acknowledge his existence, but God is not going to interfere with DDO as far as I'm concerned.

"Acts of God" is a common legal term.

Secondly, why is Juggle disclaiming damage caused to 'fluctuations in heating, lighting, or air conditioning.' Isn't that a bit extreme?

The TOS is intended to be thorough and is similar to other legal disclaimers of its type.

I will try to respond the rest of your questions in the near future.
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Smithereens
Posts: 5,512
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10/15/2012 4:56:19 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/15/2012 3:42:04 AM, airmax1227 wrote:
At 10/15/2012 2:44:54 AM, Smithereens wrote:
There are somethings that I wish to know regarding to terms of service. The section marks eligibility reads (c) if you are under the age of 18 you have permission from your legal guardian to utilize Debate.org Services.
Question: really? will I get banned for failing to do so?

There is an implied permission from your parents or legal guardian if you are using the site. Juggle is not required to contact the parents of all the minor members of the site as the TOS explicitly states that this is required as part of their use of the site.

In other words, if your parents get angry because of content of the site, it is their responsibility to police your internet usage and not the sites ownership.


(d) Your use of the Debate.org Services does not violate any applicable law or regulation.
Question: What is this applicable law?

If a law exists where you live that prohibits use of DDO, that would be a violation of an applicable law. There is no "applicable law" prohibiting use of DDO where most members live. By using DDO, you imply that there is no applicable law against it where you live.


(e) Your profile may be deleted and your Membership may be terminated without warning, if we believe you are not "eligible" to utilize the site's services.
Question: Does this mean they can ban someone on a hunch?


Juggle reserves the right to revoke the membership of any member based on whatever they deem necessary. Juggle however is not inclined to simply ban someone without reasonable cause.


Will not upload, copy, distribute, share, or otherwise use Content that is unlawful, obscene, defamatory, libelous, harmful, hateful, harassing, pornographic, threatening, racially or ethnically offensive, abusive, that would violate another person's rights, constitute or encourage a criminal offense, give rise to civil liability, or violate any local, state, national, or international law or regulation, or that is otherwise inappropriate.
Question: the statement dealing with racially or ethnically offensive. Does the definition of ethnically extend to religion?

Members should refrain from abusive behavior. On a debate site such as this, there is a large grey area and the line from reasonable exchange to what is described in the disclaimer is often difficult to objectively evaluate. If at any point you feel such a thing is being posted, please report it and contact the appropriate authorities.

Will not upload, copy, distribute, share, or otherwise use Content that contains or embodies software viruses, worms, Trojan horses, bugs, or any other malicious computer code that is designed to interrupt, undermine, destroy, or limit the functionality of any computer software, hardware, or telecommunications equipment, or that is designed to perform functions on any software, hardware, or equipment without the owner's express consent.
Question: a simple batch file command or java-script that is not recognised as a virus by any retail database is not a virus, but it is only malicious if it is used maliciously, since it is not malicious software. If it is not being used by me maliciously, then I can post one of these scripts on DDO with the intent of education and have everyone else use it maliciously.

Intent and outcome would necessarily have to be evaluated in any situation being described in the TOS. I think most members who have no ill intent understand what they should not upload or distribute to the site, and if in doubt refrain from distributing anything being described in the above.

Will not translate, reverse engineer, decompile, disassemble, modify, or create derivative works based on the Service, in whole or in part.
Question: the service is the debates provided, does this mean that its against the ToS to translate a debate from another language?

Will not circumvent, disable, violate, or otherwise interfere with any security related feature of the Service, or any technology or feature that restricts or prevents copying or use of Content or that enforces limitations on use of the Service or Content.
Question: Is white hat hacking against the rules as well?

I'm not familiar enough with this, so I don't understand the question. I'd refrain from doing anything on DDO with the term hacking in it though.

No use of profanities or swear words.
Question: Does this mean everyone should be banned?

People should refrain from cursing in the forums and in debates. Juggle and other members would like this to be a site safe for children and for use in educational institutions. Cursing doesn't ever add anything to ones arguments and is rarely useful. With that said, banning for it is not common.

Juggle shall not be held liable for any delay or failure in performance resulting directly or indirectly from acts of nature, forces, or causes beyond Juggle's reasonable control, including without limitation other equipment failures, electrical power failures, strikes, labor disputes, riots, insurrections, civil disturbances, shortages of labor or materials, fires, floods, storms, explosions, acts of God, war, governmental actions, orders of domestic or foreign courts or tribunals, non-performance of Third-Parties, or loss of or fluctuations in heating, lighting, or air conditioning.
Question: LOL, firstly, is it really necessary to disclaim damage caused by 'acts of God?' I acknowledge his existence, but God is not going to interfere with DDO as far as I'm concerned.

"Acts of God" is a common legal term.

Secondly, why is Juggle disclaiming damage caused to 'fluctuations in heating, lighting, or air conditioning.' Isn't that a bit extreme?

The TOS is intended to be thorough and is similar to other legal disclaimers of its type.

I will try to respond the rest of your questions in the near future.

Cheers heaps for taking the time to respond to these questions, don't feel obliged to answer my next batch of questions that your answers brought up unless you really want to.
"Juggle reserves the right to revoke the membership of any member based on whatever they deem necessary. Juggle however is not inclined to simply ban someone without reasonable cause."
there is nothing in the rules to prevent them from banning without a reasonable cause.

"Intent and outcome would necessarily have to be evaluated in any situation being described in the TOS. I think most members who have no ill intent understand what they should not upload or distribute to the site, and if in doubt refrain from distributing anything being described in the above."
My point was that DDO could become a legitimate hub to distribute new viruses, of course, you cannot call them malicious if the intent is unknown. And they wont be classed as malicious software, I claim that there is a loophole here O_o

unanswered Question: the service is the debates provided, does this mean that its against the ToS to translate a debate from another language?

White-hat hacking is hacking with the intent of letting the company know any weaknesses, most people do it for the thrill and companies get a huge benefit from it.

And swearing, i see it everywhere, is this rule enforced? because if it isn't then, there is no reason to enforce any other rule

Thanks for the enlightenment, i case you didn't notice, im looking for a way to get past the ToS via semantics, just to see if it can be done of course. :)
Music composition contest: http://www.debate.org...
Smithereens
Posts: 5,512
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10/15/2012 6:17:50 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/15/2012 6:15:52 AM, MilitaryAtheist wrote:
is 'kfc' racist?

in many circumstances no. its not racist to kentucky fry the chinese
Music composition contest: http://www.debate.org...
bossyburrito
Posts: 14,075
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10/15/2012 7:47:37 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
"IN NO EVENT SHALL Juggle BE LIABLE TO YOU OR ANY THIRD PERSON FOR ANY INDIRECT, GENERAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL, INCIDENTAL, EXEMPLARY, PUNITIVE, OR OTHER DAMAGES, INCLUDING WITHOUT LIMITATION DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF REVENUE OR INCOME, BUSINESS INTERRUPTION, CORRUPTION OF DATA, PERSONAL INJURY, DEATH, PAIN AND SUFFERING, EMOTIONAL DISTRESS, OR ANY OTHER TANGIBLE OR INTANGIBLE LOSS ARISING FROM YOUR USE OF THE SITE OR SERVICE, EVEN IF Juggle HAS BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES."
So if I make a rule stating that breathing within a mile of me legally forfeits your right to life it should be enforced?
#UnbanTheMadman

"Some will sell their dreams for small desires
Or lose the race to rats
Get caught in ticking traps
And start to dream of somewhere
To relax their restless flight
Somewhere out of a memory of lighted streets on quiet nights..."

~ Rush
MilitaryAtheist
Posts: 1,058
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10/15/2012 9:22:20 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/15/2012 6:17:50 AM, Smithereens wrote:
At 10/15/2012 6:15:52 AM, MilitaryAtheist wrote:
is 'kfc' racist?

in many circumstances no. its not racist to kentucky fry the chinese

Kenny Frying the Chinese
airmax1227
Posts: 13,245
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10/15/2012 11:56:12 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Cheers heaps for taking the time to respond to these questions, don't feel obliged to answer my next batch of questions that your answers brought up unless you really want to.
"Juggle reserves the right to revoke the membership of any member based on whatever they deem necessary. Juggle however is not inclined to simply ban someone without reasonable cause."
there is nothing in the rules to prevent them from banning without a reasonable cause.

Correct. But Juggle isn't inclined to simply ban people unless an evaluation is made and it is deemed a reasonable course of action. For the sake of this legal disclaimer, Juggle can do whatever they deem is necessary to protect the integrity of their website, which includes banning people without providing any reason for doing so. I have yet to see this happen though, and Juggle recognizes what is required of them to provide the best possible product, and randomly (or unfairly) banning members would be contrary to that goal.


"Intent and outcome would necessarily have to be evaluated in any situation being described in the TOS. I think most members who have no ill intent understand what they should not upload or distribute to the site, and if in doubt refrain from distributing anything being described in the above."
My point was that DDO could become a legitimate hub to distribute new viruses, of course, you cannot call them malicious if the intent is unknown. And they wont be classed as malicious software, I claim that there is a loophole here O_o

Using DDO to distribute any and all viruses would be a violation of the TOS, and would likely result in legal action against anyone attempting to do so. Juggle's legal department can probably debate pretty well on the semantics of 'malicious', or using the site in ways 'other than it is intended'. So I'd suggest not spending too much time trying to find a loophole regarding this.

unanswered Question: the service is the debates provided, does this mean that its against the ToS to translate a debate from another language?


You can translate a debate for use on the site itself.

White-hat hacking is hacking with the intent of letting the company know any weaknesses, most people do it for the thrill and companies get a huge benefit from it.

I'd strongly recommend against anyone doing this.

And swearing, i see it everywhere, is this rule enforced? because if it isn't then, there is no reason to enforce any other rule


It's not strongly enforced, though the worst offenders are often warned about their conduct.

Being more lax in one aspect of the TOS does not make all other aspects of the TOS moot. Conduct on the site is generally evaluated on a case by case basis in as fair a way as possible. While moderators may be willing to overlook the occasional cursing, most members seem to know how not to cross the line in a way that harms the site.

Thanks for the enlightenment, i case you didn't notice, im looking for a way to get past the ToS via semantics, just to see if it can be done of course. :)

Enjoy the site and have fun but be thoughtful so that everyone else in the community may also have that opportunity.

Have fun debating and feel free to contact me at any time if you have any other questions, comments, concerns or need anything else.
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