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How can we get more people voting on debates?

phantom
Posts: 6,774
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11/22/2012 1:20:57 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Make cliffstamp come back, then clone him.
"Music is a zen-like ecstatic state where you become the new man of the future, the Nietzschean merger of Apollo and Dionysus." Ray Manzarek (The Doors)
chrumbelievable
Posts: 210
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11/22/2012 1:22:07 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/22/2012 1:21:47 PM, chrumbelievable wrote:
At 11/22/2012 1:20:57 PM, phantom wrote:
Make cliffstamp come back, then clone him.

This picture this is freaking me out :)

thing*
jharry
Posts: 4,984
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11/22/2012 1:24:07 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/22/2012 1:16:55 PM, chrumbelievable wrote:
Brainstorming thread.
Please share your ideas here!

Maybe an incentive system. But it might cause poor voting habits. But if there are a lot more votes period then bad voting may be nullified.
In nomine Patris, et Filii, et Spiritus Sancti. Amen
bossyburrito
Posts: 14,075
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11/22/2012 1:24:19 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
http://debate.org...
#1 on the list
#UnbanTheMadman

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chrumbelievable
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11/22/2012 1:27:16 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/22/2012 1:24:19 PM, bossyburrito wrote:
http://debate.org...
#1 on the list

I'm liking a lot of these ideas, bossy. Some of them are already in the hopper, as we like to call it.
jharry
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11/22/2012 1:28:14 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/22/2012 1:24:19 PM, bossyburrito wrote:
http://debate.org...
#1 on the list

That could work, but it doesn't really address more voting exactly. I think more voting will cause more quality in the long run. Members might debate more if they know there time will not be wasted when no one votes.
In nomine Patris, et Filii, et Spiritus Sancti. Amen
000ike
Posts: 11,196
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11/22/2012 1:31:35 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
create a reward/punishment moralistic system on voting. Votes are given thumbs ups and thumbs down by everyone except the 2 individuals who performed the debate...and then you take the aggregate approval of everyone, and the member with the highest thumbs up that week gets shown on the homepage.
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
Mirza
Posts: 16,992
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11/22/2012 1:33:35 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
I think we could make use of an achievement system. For example, 10 points for voting twice a week for say, 6 months. And for every 100 points you could get a special badge or something, as well as a list of achievements. This could stretch to many other activities that help the site function.
truthseeker613
Posts: 464
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11/22/2012 1:37:41 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/22/2012 1:16:55 PM, chrumbelievable wrote:
Brainstorming thread.
Please share your ideas here!

The problem with trying to get more people to vote, is that it will almost inevitably lead to a decrease in quality / accuracy of the voting. (which is a problem already).
http://www.nydailynews.com...

royalpaladin: I'd rather support people who kill spies than a nation that organizes assassination squads (Kidon) to illegally enter into other nations and kill anybody who is not a Zionist. Who knows when they'll kill me for the crime of not supporting Israel?

Koopin: LOL! I just imagine Royal sitting in here apartment at night, when suddenly she hears a man outside speaking Hebrew as sh
tulle
Posts: 4,445
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11/22/2012 1:38:11 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Honestly, the number one deterrent for me voting in debates is length and density. I've recently got more time on my hands so I'm able to read and vote on more debates.

But if a debate is particularly long and dense, it's harder to vote on. It's easy to vote on troll debates that you can read through in five minutes. Other debates may take me an hour to fully read and absorb and then make a case for my RFD.

I think an incentive program is a good idea, but I also think the character limit should be reduced. 8000 characters is like 4 pages on Microsoft word. If there are 4 rounds (not inluding the introduction), that's like reading 32 pages, which is basically a Chapter out of a University textbook.
yang.
phantom
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11/22/2012 1:39:10 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
I like some of the other ideas. Maybe a voting leaderboard as well with number of votes factoring into the rankings but not being the sole factor.
"Music is a zen-like ecstatic state where you become the new man of the future, the Nietzschean merger of Apollo and Dionysus." Ray Manzarek (The Doors)
tulle
Posts: 4,445
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11/22/2012 1:40:41 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/22/2012 1:38:11 PM, tulle wrote:
Honestly, the number one deterrent for me voting in debates is length and density. I've recently got more time on my hands so I'm able to read and vote on more debates.

But if a debate is particularly long and dense, it's harder to vote on. It's easy to vote on troll debates that you can read through in five minutes. Other debates may take me an hour to fully read and absorb and then make a case for my RFD.

I think an incentive program is a good idea, but I also think the character limit should be reduced. 8000 characters is like 4 pages on Microsoft word. If there are 4 rounds (not inluding the introduction), that's like reading 32 pages, which is basically a Chapter out of a University textbook.

I also think that, if the character limit is reduced, there should be a separate link for sources in each round. That way, you don't have to worry about running out of space for sources, and that using more sources doesn't mean you have less space.
yang.
phantom
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11/22/2012 1:44:47 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/22/2012 1:40:41 PM, tulle wrote:
At 11/22/2012 1:38:11 PM, tulle wrote:
Honestly, the number one deterrent for me voting in debates is length and density. I've recently got more time on my hands so I'm able to read and vote on more debates.

But if a debate is particularly long and dense, it's harder to vote on. It's easy to vote on troll debates that you can read through in five minutes. Other debates may take me an hour to fully read and absorb and then make a case for my RFD.

I think an incentive program is a good idea, but I also think the character limit should be reduced. 8000 characters is like 4 pages on Microsoft word. If there are 4 rounds (not inluding the introduction), that's like reading 32 pages, which is basically a Chapter out of a University textbook.

I also think that, if the character limit is reduced, there should be a separate link for sources in each round. That way, you don't have to worry about running out of space for sources, and that using more sources doesn't mean you have less space.

I usually add the rule in my debates that you can post sources in a separate link. When you debate adams though, he'll source-bomb the hell out of you.
"Music is a zen-like ecstatic state where you become the new man of the future, the Nietzschean merger of Apollo and Dionysus." Ray Manzarek (The Doors)
F-16_Fighting_Falcon
Posts: 18,324
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11/22/2012 1:50:29 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
I like the thumbsup/thumbsdown idea. What will be even better is an amazon.com style voting where the best votes are shown as the best reviews of the debate.

I think it definitely encourages quality voting if you know that if you provide a thoughtful RFD, your vote will be displayed at the top of all other votes with the headline "best pro vote" or "best con vote" or "most helpful review." The quantity of votes you cast will be irrelevant but the quality would be what matters.

As an example here are the amazon reviews: http://www.amazon.com...

The "most helpful" review is always at the top and visible to all.

Also, I think debaters should be able to thumbs up or thumbs down the vote as well with bonus points to the vote if the debater you voted against is happy with the vote.
F-16_Fighting_Falcon
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11/22/2012 1:51:11 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/22/2012 1:33:35 PM, Mirza wrote:
I think we could make use of an achievement system. For example, 10 points for voting twice a week for say, 6 months. And for every 100 points you could get a special badge or something, as well as a list of achievements. This could stretch to many other activities that help the site function.

But it only increases quantity though.
tulle
Posts: 4,445
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11/22/2012 1:53:24 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/22/2012 1:44:47 PM, phantom wrote:

I usually add the rule in my debates that you can post sources in a separate link. When you debate adams though, he'll source-bomb the hell out of you.

But lets say the character limitwas 5000 as opposed to 8000. That drastically cuts down on the amount we have to read, and forces you to make more concise arguments.

You still have to explain your sources and show how they are relevant, and you have less characters to do so, so you can't source-bomb, I would think.
yang.
F-16_Fighting_Falcon
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11/22/2012 1:53:31 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/22/2012 1:39:10 PM, phantom wrote:
I like some of the other ideas. Maybe a voting leaderboard as well with number of votes factoring into the rankings but not being the sole factor.

I love the idea of a voting leaderboard although I think 000ike's vote ranking idea should be used in conjunction with it as opposed to merely the number of votes.
sadolite
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11/22/2012 1:57:35 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Make the votes anonymous like it used to be. And for the love of god, 1 point one vote. None of this splitting the vote for reasons that have nothing to do with the debate. Spelling, behavior and the like. If it is a reason to make you loose in someone else's eyes, so be it. This is how it is in the real world. It does not matter how convincing an argument you make, people will vote against you for ideological reasons. Mix all the votes in. You get vote bombed, to bad, that's how it is in the real world.
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phantom
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11/22/2012 2:03:22 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/22/2012 1:57:35 PM, sadolite wrote:
Make the votes anonymous like it used to be.

Omg, no never. This would be horrible. The quality of votes back then was utterly horrendous.

And for the love of god, 1 point one vote. None of this splitting the vote for reasons that have nothing to do with the debate. Spelling, behavior and the like. If it is a reason to make you loose in someone else's eyes, so be it. This is how it is in the real world. It does not matter how convincing an argument you make, people will vote against you for ideological reasons. Mix all the votes in. You get vote bombed, to bad, that's how it is in the real world.

I don't know about a 1 point vote system but we should definitely remove the source points. People abuse them incredibly and sources should be factored into your argument points anyway.
"Music is a zen-like ecstatic state where you become the new man of the future, the Nietzschean merger of Apollo and Dionysus." Ray Manzarek (The Doors)
phantom
Posts: 6,774
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11/22/2012 2:04:53 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/22/2012 1:53:24 PM, tulle wrote:
At 11/22/2012 1:44:47 PM, phantom wrote:

I usually add the rule in my debates that you can post sources in a separate link. When you debate adams though, he'll source-bomb the hell out of you.

But lets say the character limitwas 5000 as opposed to 8000. That drastically cuts down on the amount we have to read, and forces you to make more concise arguments.

Too low =/

You still have to explain your sources and show how they are relevant, and you have less characters to do so, so you can't source-bomb, I would think.

I don't think people take the time to explain their sources.
"Music is a zen-like ecstatic state where you become the new man of the future, the Nietzschean merger of Apollo and Dionysus." Ray Manzarek (The Doors)
Mirza
Posts: 16,992
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11/22/2012 2:12:34 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/22/2012 1:51:11 PM, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:
At 11/22/2012 1:33:35 PM, Mirza wrote:
I think we could make use of an achievement system. For example, 10 points for voting twice a week for say, 6 months. And for every 100 points you could get a special badge or something, as well as a list of achievements. This could stretch to many other activities that help the site function.

But it only increases quantity though.
I'd be able to expand a lot more -- I think suggesting the idea is more proper for now. In response, the achievement system can easily work alongside the like/dislike one, and even many others.
16kadams
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11/22/2012 2:15:21 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
The thumbs up/down is corruptible. We would get partisan votes in a two stage level. On a liberal book on amazon, for example, conservative reviews are voted down, and vice versa on conservative books. More liberals look at liberal books then conservatives, and can vote down the 1 star reviews, even if its a good review. And vice versa. I don't know about our demographics, but similar situations would be inevitable.

The ranking system may not work as well as we are suspecting. To fix the problem we need to know why people aren't voting, fix the why, then add incentives. We could just add incentives so there is a net benefit, but fixing both would be more effective. I don't vote often anymore because I don't feel like reading debates. When I do vote, I read the debate, but I dont have the energy as often so I vote less. So I just don't vote as much due to the length of the read. I suspect this is the main reason, which cannot be controlled. And I don't know of any large incentives that would counter this. In sum: do nothing.
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Mirza
Posts: 16,992
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11/22/2012 2:16:09 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Moreover, winners of debate tournaments could also get an achievement on their list, and tons of other things. I think this kind of a system is great for a small community. Lots of competition, lots of ranks, lots of obligations, etc.
OberHerr
Posts: 13,062
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11/22/2012 2:24:41 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Why not make a token system, where in order to get more tokens you have to vote on debates. Tokens would be used to "buy" a debate, or like 100 posts or something like that.
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tulle
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11/22/2012 2:25:51 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/22/2012 2:04:53 PM, phantom wrote:
At 11/22/2012 1:53:24 PM, tulle wrote:
But lets say the character limitwas 5000 as opposed to 8000. That drastically cuts down on the amount we have to read, and forces you to make more concise arguments.

Too low =/

http://www.debate.org...

In this debate, my first round, including sources was 5072 characters. Second round is 4549 characters. Third round is 4165 characters.

Granted, it wasn't really a hard-hitting debate but, with some exceptions (ie. philosophical debates) most debates probably wouldn't take that long.
yang.
F-16_Fighting_Falcon
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11/22/2012 2:27:30 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Ober, but what is to stop people from simply voting on forfeited/troll debates?

16k, you make a lot of good points. I think it really depends on the kind of debates and debaters where the votes are taking place. If we have objective debtaters and voters, it wouldn't be an issue - but if the same people who are votebombing debates get to thumbs up or thumbs down votes, we might run into the same problem. I suppose we could require RFD's for thumbs up and thumbs down so it isn't abused?
F-16_Fighting_Falcon
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11/22/2012 2:29:42 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/22/2012 2:25:51 PM, tulle wrote:
At 11/22/2012 2:04:53 PM, phantom wrote:
At 11/22/2012 1:53:24 PM, tulle wrote:
But lets say the character limitwas 5000 as opposed to 8000. That drastically cuts down on the amount we have to read, and forces you to make more concise arguments.

Too low =/

http://www.debate.org...

In this debate, my first round, including sources was 5072 characters. Second round is 4549 characters. Third round is 4165 characters.

Granted, it wasn't really a hard-hitting debate but, with some exceptions (ie. philosophical debates) most debates probably wouldn't take that long.

Yeah, I had a couple of 6000 character debates too - on space exploration and the benefits of military service. Yet when I do an 8000 character debate on roller coasters, the content never seems to fit. I guess it depends on who you are debating as opposed to the topic. I am not opposed to having debates with lower than 8000 characters but the voters barely see the difference.
BlackVoid
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11/22/2012 2:32:31 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
16k is right, thumbs up/down would be abused with all the conservatives (and any other group) coming out of the woodworks to thumbs-up each other. We'd also have the members who are less popular be getting a lot of unjustified thumb-downs.

I'd just focus on quantity over quality. I can't think of any system that could accurately reward quality RFD's over poor ones (of the same length) because there's disagreement over what constitutes a good RFD in the first place. Different people have different standards.

My suggestion: just have a voting leaderboard with the people who have the most votes at the top, similar to the debate leaderboard. However, do not count votes on forfeited debates towards the leaderboard count. Because then, people just vote on tons of forfeited debates with an RFD of "FF" and spam their vote count. Only have votes on completed debates count towards your stance on the leaderboard.

This would increase voting incentive, but more importantly, increase incentive on the debates that actually matter.