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OmG I am sick of this site

funnybrad333
Posts: 221
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11/8/2008 5:54:31 PM
Posted: 8 years ago
Why do all the self-proclaimed geniuses on this website not know how to end the so-called vote bombing?

All you do is complain and plea; its disgustingly irritating.

ACTIONS ARE STRONGER THAN WORDS!

I implore you to utilize apathy, and simply disband the cleaners and continue without regard for the CWO's existence.
If I didn't answer what you said, try bolding the important part.
Dnick94
Posts: 273
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11/8/2008 5:57:51 PM
Posted: 8 years ago
It won't work:

"Fact: Each of the Cleaners works individually, and the group name really means nothing. It is just to show that they have dedicated themselves to something above typical debate.org activities. The average debate.org member votes based on their beliefs, without explaining their votes, and only rarely.

Fact: If the Cleaners disbanded, it would not change anything. The same group would still do the same thing.

Fact: The terrorist knows that the activities the Cleaners perform will not change if The Cleaners are disbanded, but seeks the disbanding of the Cleaners anyway."

http://www.debate.org...
"Intellectuals solve problems; geniuses prevent them."
-Albert Einstein
Kleptin
Posts: 5,095
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11/8/2008 6:11:38 PM
Posted: 8 years ago
At 11/8/2008 5:54:31 PM, funnybrad333 wrote:
Why do all the self-proclaimed geniuses on this website not know how to end the so-called vote bombing?

All you do is complain and plea; its disgustingly irritating.

ACTIONS ARE STRONGER THAN WORDS!

I implore you to utilize apathy, and simply disband the cleaners and continue without regard for the CWO's existence.

What exactly do you think "disbanding" means? Let's say that tomorrow, I announce that there are no more Cleaners. All the ex-Cleaners would just go on, commenting and voting on debates and offering explanations as to why they voted the way they did.

Which is exactly what they did before.

If I "disband" the Cleaners, it would mean absolutely nothing, and the terrorist knows that. He'll continue vote bombing, whether we are disbanded or not, because it makes absolutely no difference!

Haven't you ever heard of something called "appeasement" in your history class about Hitler and WW2?

Trust me, if it were as simple as you think it is, it would have been resolved already. The terrorist's "reasons" for vote bombing are just to cover up what he's really doing: vote bombing against people who don't share his ideas.
: At 5/2/2010 2:43:54 PM, innomen wrote:
It isn't about finding a theory, philosophy or doctrine and thinking it's the answer, but a practical application of one's experiences that is the answer.

: At 10/28/2010 2:40:07 PM, jharry wrote: I have already been given the greatest Gift that anyone could ever hope for [Life], I would consider myself selfish if I expected anything more.
funnybrad333
Posts: 221
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11/8/2008 6:22:31 PM
Posted: 8 years ago
Exactly, stop appeasing him. By retaliating towards the CWO, Josh is satisfied. He lives off of attention. If you truly wanted to end the vote bombing, you would disband the cleaners.

This is impossible, however. The notion that you would even disband the cleaners is unfathomable, not to mention the fact that the task is in itself impossible, because it would require the many friendships and biases within the cleaners to be terminated.
If I didn't answer what you said, try bolding the important part.
Dnick94
Posts: 273
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11/8/2008 6:30:10 PM
Posted: 8 years ago
Josh: vote bombing against people who don't share his ideas.
With no Cleaners, Josh will get whatever he wants more easier.
"Intellectuals solve problems; geniuses prevent them."
-Albert Einstein
funnybrad333
Posts: 221
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11/8/2008 6:37:06 PM
Posted: 8 years ago
Josh: a firm believer of his own notion of morality and truth

Cleaners: firm believers in their own notion of morality and truth

Ahh. I see a striking similarity.

Just because the cleaners believe they are promoting proper ethics and the pursuit of truth and knowledge in debate, does not in any sense or fashion make their actions condonable. I would say one thing though; both groups have good intentions. And we know that since both groups oppose each other, one group must be morally correct.

**Please note I may be misinformed as my only source is recent comments from both parties and their respective affiliates.
If I didn't answer what you said, try bolding the important part.
Kleptin
Posts: 5,095
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11/8/2008 6:37:30 PM
Posted: 8 years ago
At 11/8/2008 6:22:31 PM, funnybrad333 wrote:
Exactly, stop appeasing him. By retaliating towards the CWO, Josh is satisfied. He lives off of attention. If you truly wanted to end the vote bombing, you would disband the cleaners.

This is impossible, however. The notion that you would even disband the cleaners is unfathomable, not to mention the fact that the task is in itself impossible, because it would require the many friendships and biases within the cleaners to be terminated.

I think you just read the bottom of my response and completely ignored everything above it. Could you either read my response fully, or send me a message? Because although I was very clear in explaining *why* it isn't feasible, you kind of went on with the same kind of thinking you had before I responded at all.
: At 5/2/2010 2:43:54 PM, innomen wrote:
It isn't about finding a theory, philosophy or doctrine and thinking it's the answer, but a practical application of one's experiences that is the answer.

: At 10/28/2010 2:40:07 PM, jharry wrote: I have already been given the greatest Gift that anyone could ever hope for [Life], I would consider myself selfish if I expected anything more.
funnybrad333
Posts: 221
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11/8/2008 6:46:03 PM
Posted: 8 years ago
I understand that both groups are only a "symbol" for the individuals that compose said groups, and that the group itself holds no barring on the individual's actions.

I addressed this in the second part of my post, I believe.

But you must realize that biases exist within BOTH groups. If Logical Master debated against Josh, you definitely would have a preconception that LM should win.
If I didn't answer what you said, try bolding the important part.
Dnick94
Posts: 273
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11/8/2008 6:48:26 PM
Posted: 8 years ago
At 11/8/2008 6:46:03 PM, funnybrad333 wrote:

But you must realize that biases exist within BOTH groups. If Logical Master debated against Josh, you definitely would have a preconception that LM should win.

Incorrect, if LM debated against Josh, Josh or LM would only win if one of them truly won.
"Intellectuals solve problems; geniuses prevent them."
-Albert Einstein
Kleptin
Posts: 5,095
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11/8/2008 6:53:26 PM
Posted: 8 years ago
At 11/8/2008 6:46:03 PM, funnybrad333 wrote:
I understand that both groups are only a "symbol" for the individuals that compose said groups, and that the group itself holds no barring on the individual's actions.

I addressed this in the second part of my post, I believe.

But you must realize that biases exist within BOTH groups. If Logical Master debated against Josh, you definitely would have a preconception that LM should win.

No, what you said is that the disbanding of the Cleaners would involve the termination of friendships and whatnot. This is not the case.

I am not saying it is impossible in that we *don't* want to do it. I am saying that it is impractical. If I posted up a topic saying "The Cleaners are hereby disbanded", there would be absolutely no positive OR negative result. Nothing would change.

If you call a dog's tail a leg, a dog still only has 4 legs, not 5. Similarly, if you "disband" the Cleaners, you would still have a group of people who vote and comment on debates.

As I said before, disbanding the Cleaners will not change anything. That means, we need to ask ourselves WHY the terrorist wants us to do so.

The answer is: He wants to convince himself he can tell us to do whatever he wants, and we will do it. If you have ever seen the Star Trek episode where Captain Picard is being tortured and forced to say "There are five lights" when there are only four, you will understand.
: At 5/2/2010 2:43:54 PM, innomen wrote:
It isn't about finding a theory, philosophy or doctrine and thinking it's the answer, but a practical application of one's experiences that is the answer.

: At 10/28/2010 2:40:07 PM, jharry wrote: I have already been given the greatest Gift that anyone could ever hope for [Life], I would consider myself selfish if I expected anything more.
Kleptin
Posts: 5,095
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11/8/2008 6:54:34 PM
Posted: 8 years ago
Or actually, let me put it a simpler way.

Why do you think that disbanding the Cleaners would make the terrorist happy enough to make everything normal again?
: At 5/2/2010 2:43:54 PM, innomen wrote:
It isn't about finding a theory, philosophy or doctrine and thinking it's the answer, but a practical application of one's experiences that is the answer.

: At 10/28/2010 2:40:07 PM, jharry wrote: I have already been given the greatest Gift that anyone could ever hope for [Life], I would consider myself selfish if I expected anything more.
Rezzealaux
Posts: 2,251
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11/8/2008 6:55:10 PM
Posted: 8 years ago
At 11/8/2008 6:22:31 PM, funnybrad333 wrote:
Exactly, stop appeasing him. By retaliating towards the CWO, Josh is satisfied. He lives off of attention. If you truly wanted to end the vote bombing, you would disband the cleaners.

Josh will be satisfied if we retaliate because he gets attention, and he will be satisfied if we don't retaliate because then he gets to run this site the way he wants. If we start "not appeasing" him, then he'll just expand his satisfaction to include every action we do, and then absolutely everything we do on this site or off this site will make him happy, and we're screwed everywhere.

I'm relatively sure that Cleaners and associates don't base their policies on "appeasement".

The logic would just go in an endless loop.

At 11/8/2008 5:54:31 PM, funnybrad333 wrote:
All you do is complain and plea; its disgustingly irritating.

Clean your glasses. The ghosts will disappear.

I implore you to utilize apathy

APATHY? On MY DEBATE.com?

At 11/8/2008 6:37:06 PM, funnybrad333 wrote:
I would say one thing though; both groups have good intentions. And we know that since both groups oppose each other, one group must be morally correct.

And that would be the Cleaners.
: If you weren't new here, you'd know not to feed me such attention. This is like an orgasm in my brain right now. *hehe, my name is in a title, hehe* (http://www.debate.org...)

Just in case I get into some BS with FREEDO again about how he's NOT a narcissist.

"The law is there to destroy evil under the constitutional government."
So... what's there to destroy evil inside of and above the constitutional government?
funnybrad333
Posts: 221
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11/8/2008 6:59:14 PM
Posted: 8 years ago
I am not under the impression that humanity is infallible.

Intelligent people speak of ideals, but fail to recognize the inconvenient truths of life.

Humans are not autonomous. Humans are different.

By this I mean that humans are not capable of fully rational decision making, and that humans are inherently different through genetics and experience.

Because of this, you must realize that no one is fully capable of escaping their own compulsory biases.

Kleptin is more than likely to act in LM's favor due to affiliation.
If I didn't answer what you said, try bolding the important part.
Dnick94
Posts: 273
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11/8/2008 7:02:19 PM
Posted: 8 years ago
At 11/8/2008 5:54:31 PM, funnybrad333 wrote:
All I do is complain and plea; its disgustingly irritating.

Fixed.

You complain way too much. You complain the the Cleaners vote bombed against you; now you complain because we complain.
"Intellectuals solve problems; geniuses prevent them."
-Albert Einstein
funnybrad333
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11/8/2008 7:04:48 PM
Posted: 8 years ago
@Kleptin

Josh recognizes a bias between the members of the cleaners, one that was preexistent to the actual group's introduction.

If we are to end the vote bombing, then all biases must be destroyed. And yes, I know that example does not usually speak through most people's minds. But if you stop caring about the vote bombing, and end all current biases (I do acknowledge the fact that this is almost impossible), then I do believe that Josh will stop.

I pose this question to you, what do you believe is Josh's motive?
If I didn't answer what you said, try bolding the important part.
funnybrad333
Posts: 221
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11/8/2008 7:05:55 PM
Posted: 8 years ago
At 11/8/2008 7:02:19 PM, Dnick94 wrote:
At 11/8/2008 5:54:31 PM, funnybrad333 wrote:
All I do is complain and plea; its disgustingly irritating.

Fixed.

You complain way too much. You complain the the Cleaners vote bombed against you; now you complain because we complain.

Ahh, tomato tomoto. I'll stop.
If I didn't answer what you said, try bolding the important part.
Kleptin
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11/8/2008 7:08:06 PM
Posted: 8 years ago
At 11/8/2008 6:59:14 PM, funnybrad333 wrote:
Kleptin is more than likely to act in LM's favor due to affiliation.

Am I likely to act in LM's favor because we are both Cleaners, or am I likely to act in LM's favor because we are friends?

The answer is the latter.

If I disband the cleaners, nothing is going to stop me from continuing to be LM's friend. Thus, disbanding the Cleaners does nothing.

Besides, will I vote for LM in a debate that he has lost? As a Cleaner, I am forced to detail my allocation of points and EXPLAIN why. If I put up a BS explanation to give LM votes he doesn't deserve, everyone will see that I'm biased and I'll be called out. Thus, being a Cleaner limits what I can do.

Being part of CWO means you are part of a group, and you share that group's strengths and weaknesses. Calling yourself a Cleaner does not give you any power at all. It doesn't give you any support or strength from fellow Cleaners. Being a Cleaner basically means you add a couple more rules to your Terms of Service on debate.org

1) Don't vote based purely on your beliefs
2) Explain your votes as a comment.

That's it.
: At 5/2/2010 2:43:54 PM, innomen wrote:
It isn't about finding a theory, philosophy or doctrine and thinking it's the answer, but a practical application of one's experiences that is the answer.

: At 10/28/2010 2:40:07 PM, jharry wrote: I have already been given the greatest Gift that anyone could ever hope for [Life], I would consider myself selfish if I expected anything more.
funnybrad333
Posts: 221
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11/8/2008 7:08:08 PM
Posted: 8 years ago
@REZZ

I do understand that emotion is necessary for debate to exist, but you must understand that emotion is not necessary for action to exist. Vote bombing is not debate, it is an action. Therefore, it is extremely feasible to neglect said action.
If I didn't answer what you said, try bolding the important part.
Dnick94
Posts: 273
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11/8/2008 7:10:44 PM
Posted: 8 years ago
At 11/8/2008 7:04:48 PM, funnybrad333 wrote:
@Kleptin


Josh doesn't recognizes any existing bias between the members of the cleaners, one that he made up prior to the actual group's introduction to counter it with the CWO.

If we are to end the vote bombing, then all accounts of Josh must be destroyed. And yes, I know that example does usually speak through most people's minds. But if you don't stop caring about the vote bombing, and end all accounts of Josh (I do acknowledge the fact that this is almost impossible), then I do believe that Josh will stop.

I pose this question to you, what do you believe is my motive to complain?

Fixed.
"Intellectuals solve problems; geniuses prevent them."
-Albert Einstein
funnybrad333
Posts: 221
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11/8/2008 7:11:50 PM
Posted: 8 years ago
@Kleptin

So could you at least try, or state in a post to Josh, that you are ending the biases within the cleaners, and in turn ending the cleaners. You can still vote and provide reasoning and constructive criticism, but instead of typing "Kleptin- voting as a cleaner" (which, to be honest, I find extremely pretentious and infuriating) just omit the aforementioned phrase.
If I didn't answer what you said, try bolding the important part.
Dnick94
Posts: 273
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11/8/2008 7:14:35 PM
Posted: 8 years ago
"I think this quote is very applicable to josh:

"Some men aren't looking for anything logical. They can't be bought, bullied, reasoned, or negotiated with. Some men just want to watch the world burn." -The Dark Knight"
"Intellectuals solve problems; geniuses prevent them."
-Albert Einstein
Kleptin
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11/8/2008 7:18:48 PM
Posted: 8 years ago
At 11/8/2008 7:04:48 PM, funnybrad333 wrote:
@Kleptin
I pose this question to you, what do you believe is Josh's motive?

Josh's motive is to vote bomb the people who share ideas he does not agree with, and force them to bend to his will and/or leave the site. He started off whining like a baby to me about how there seems to be injustice here and there, and gave me several debates to look at.

In these debates, there was a clear winner and a clear loser. I could literally point at the places that were deciding factors in debates. Josh was not convinced and kept on saying there was some conspiracy. I was patient with him, and for every debate he sent me, I examined it, and explained to him why he was wrong.

He still wouldn't let go. He was convinced that something was wrong, and that all the "liberals" were banding together and voting each other up. Then, the CWO mess started, because this rumor of his spread like wildfire. Then, accusations of vote bombing started to pop up, and there was a topic created about the CWO vote bombing.

We began to argue with him outwardly in the comments section of that topic, but he behaved like a child. He kept trolling, spouting random nonsense, insulting random members, posting garbage, and got angrier and angrier. When he couldn't take the fact that nobody respected him, he left, and I thought it was over.

It was then that I formed "The Cleaners", to ensure that vote bombing would not occur again, and because a lack of commenting on debates was hampering debate.org

I was wrong, and Josh returned.

He decided to go on several Conservative Christian forums (we have screenshots) and rally people to vote bomb the "liberals" as a form of punishment. His account was banned, and he came back with the one called "antisemantic". He is lying to all of debate.org by pretending to care about issues, this is really just about him satisfying his own pride. All his horsecrap about protecting newbies and fighting semantics is a coverup. He is hoping to fool people, much like how he fooled you initially, into thinking that CWO and The Cleaners are the same.
: At 5/2/2010 2:43:54 PM, innomen wrote:
It isn't about finding a theory, philosophy or doctrine and thinking it's the answer, but a practical application of one's experiences that is the answer.

: At 10/28/2010 2:40:07 PM, jharry wrote: I have already been given the greatest Gift that anyone could ever hope for [Life], I would consider myself selfish if I expected anything more.
Logical-Master
Posts: 2,538
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11/8/2008 7:20:04 PM
Posted: 8 years ago
Really? So I take it that I voted down scissorhands (a cleaner) in two debates in the favor of a non cleaner (well, one of them at the time wasn't a cleaner) because I was biased in his favor? Seriously, it would do the both of us plenty of good if you examined the claims you intended to make before making them.

Also, check out this debate:http://www.debate.org...

Show me the bias from the cleaners if you can. Josh is full of *word I can't use of debate.org*. Honestly, I don't even know why there is a discussion devoted to whether or not this is true. It's like discussing whether or not most humans have hands.

Most importantly, you're sick of the complaining. That's completely understandable. I too grow tired of seeing certain posts (specifically, threads which joshand spams to death). Until (or assuming if) the mod decides to incorporate an ignore list feature, the most you can do is avoid these threads where you notice the complaining.

However, in the complainers defense, they have some pretty just reasons for complaining. We're talking about people who have contributed a lot of their time to this website in order to earn their wins and successfully persuade other users . . . only to see all of that time and effort tarnished by some troll in mere minutes. It's like the guy who spends 4 straight weeks building a complex lego masterpiece only to see some dumb kid walk over and knock the aformentioned masterpiece apart in five seconds flat. Not only was this guy's time and effort wasted, but there is nothing he can do about it (the recent inactivty of the mod only worsens the situation . . . which hopefully, will be put to a halt when this voting system upgrade is placed into effect).
funnybrad333
Posts: 221
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11/8/2008 7:23:10 PM
Posted: 8 years ago
Well Kleptin, we come at an impass.

It is impossible for me to accept the notion that these two groups are not the same as a fact. This is because your beliefs are not necessarily superior to those of Josh.

I will return in approximately 30 minutes. Until then, tootaloos.
If I didn't answer what you said, try bolding the important part.
Kleptin
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11/8/2008 7:24:36 PM
Posted: 8 years ago
At 11/8/2008 7:11:50 PM, funnybrad333 wrote:
@Kleptin

So could you at least try, or state in a post to Josh, that you are ending the biases within the cleaners, and in turn ending the cleaners.

Read the post I made above. Josh isn't against the Cleaners as a group, he is against the individuals. He knows that I would gladly do what you just said if it would make everything normal again. If it were as simple as that, I'd do it in a heartbeat, because I wouldn't be giving anything up, and I would be gaining everything :D Thus, he wouldn't let everything go that easily.
: At 5/2/2010 2:43:54 PM, innomen wrote:
It isn't about finding a theory, philosophy or doctrine and thinking it's the answer, but a practical application of one's experiences that is the answer.

: At 10/28/2010 2:40:07 PM, jharry wrote: I have already been given the greatest Gift that anyone could ever hope for [Life], I would consider myself selfish if I expected anything more.
Dnick94
Posts: 273
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11/8/2008 7:30:50 PM
Posted: 8 years ago
All his horsecrap about protecting newbies and fighting semantics is a coverup. He is hoping to fool people, much like how he fooled you initially, into thinking that CWO and The Cleaners are the same.

CWO: votes bomb people he doesn't like

Cleaners: vote objectively and gives a logical reason to why they voted
"Intellectuals solve problems; geniuses prevent them."
-Albert Einstein
Labrat228
Posts: 330
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11/8/2008 7:37:24 PM
Posted: 8 years ago
At 11/8/2008 7:24:36 PM, Kleptin wrote:
At 11/8/2008 7:11:50 PM, funnybrad333 wrote:
@Kleptin

So could you at least try, or state in a post to Josh, that you are ending the biases within the cleaners, and in turn ending the cleaners.

Read the post I made above. Josh isn't against the Cleaners as a group, he is against the individuals. He knows that I would gladly do what you just said if it would make everything normal again. If it were as simple as that, I'd do it in a heartbeat, because I wouldn't be giving anything up, and I would be gaining everything :D Thus, he wouldn't let everything go that easily.

Kleptin, I'm sorry to inform you, the "CWO" and the "Cleaners" do bare a resemblance. The CWO was originally started to "clean" debate.org (You cannot refute this due to the fact that I was running the CWO). The cleaners have come to "Clean" debate.org (I believe you would agree). The CWO later degraded into a mindless monster. "The Cleaners" are becoming a mindless monster. All debate.org voting groups should be eliminated immediately! I understand the need for such groups. But every time one is created, it simply turns into a mess, such as this one.
VOTE INNOMEN

How much pot does Charlie Sheen do?
Enough to kill Two and a Half Men!
Logical-Master
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11/8/2008 7:41:42 PM
Posted: 8 years ago
At 11/8/2008 7:37:24 PM, Labrat228 wrote:
At 11/8/2008 7:24:36 PM, Kleptin wrote:
At 11/8/2008 7:11:50 PM, funnybrad333 wrote:
@Kleptin

So could you at least try, or state in a post to Josh, that you are ending the biases within the cleaners, and in turn ending the cleaners.

Read the post I made above. Josh isn't against the Cleaners as a group, he is against the individuals. He knows that I would gladly do what you just said if it would make everything normal again. If it were as simple as that, I'd do it in a heartbeat, because I wouldn't be giving anything up, and I would be gaining everything :D Thus, he wouldn't let everything go that easily.

Kleptin, I'm sorry to inform you, the "CWO" and the "Cleaners" do bare a resemblance. The CWO was originally started to "clean" debate.org (You cannot refute this due to the fact that I was running the CWO). The cleaners have come to "Clean" debate.org (I believe you would agree). The CWO later degraded into a mindless monster. "The Cleaners" are becoming a mindless monster. All debate.org voting groups should be eliminated immediately! I understand the need for such groups. But every time one is created, it simply turns into a mess, such as this one.

Labrat, do tel how the Cleaners have become a mindless monster. I'm curious. :D
Labrat228
Posts: 330
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11/8/2008 7:49:43 PM
Posted: 8 years ago
At 11/8/2008 7:41:42 PM, Logical-Master wrote:
At 11/8/2008 7:37:24 PM, Labrat228 wrote:
At 11/8/2008 7:24:36 PM, Kleptin wrote:
At 11/8/2008 7:11:50 PM, funnybrad333 wrote:
@Kleptin

So could you at least try, or state in a post to Josh, that you are ending the biases within the cleaners, and in turn ending the cleaners.

Read the post I made above. Josh isn't against the Cleaners as a group, he is against the individuals. He knows that I would gladly do what you just said if it would make everything normal again. If it were as simple as that, I'd do it in a heartbeat, because I wouldn't be giving anything up, and I would be gaining everything :D Thus, he wouldn't let everything go that easily.

Kleptin, I'm sorry to inform you, the "CWO" and the "Cleaners" do bare a resemblance. The CWO was originally started to "clean" debate.org (You cannot refute this due to the fact that I was running the CWO). The cleaners have come to "Clean" debate.org (I believe you would agree). The CWO later degraded into a mindless monster. "The Cleaners" are becoming a mindless monster. All debate.org voting groups should be eliminated immediately! I understand the need for such groups. But every time one is created, it simply turns into a mess, such as this one.


Labrat, do tel how the Cleaners have become a mindless monster. I'm curious. :D

The key to eliminating vote bombing is eliminating the groups. Vote bombing started when the CWO came into the picture, when the member known as "Josh" went rogue. I believe that if we stop with the groups, and ignore the drama queens such as josh, than it will all fix in time.
VOTE INNOMEN

How much pot does Charlie Sheen do?
Enough to kill Two and a Half Men!
Dnick94
Posts: 273
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11/8/2008 7:55:22 PM
Posted: 8 years ago
In other words, let's permanently ban Josh and disband both the Cleaners and the CWO and see if voting bombing would stop?
"Intellectuals solve problems; geniuses prevent them."
-Albert Einstein