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DDO study: the nature of win-loss ratio

dylancatlow
Posts: 12,242
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2/21/2013 10:32:22 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
I'm going to be conducting some research into the nature of ELO and actual debate skills. I have found that people with a very high win-loss ratio on the site tend to take easy debates or illegitimate ones.

The following will be the criteria for determining if a debate is 'Illegitimate'

1) Someone forfeits

2) One or fewer votes

3) The resolution is ridiculous or obviously flawed semantically

4) One or more of the rounds are ridiculous

5) One of the rounds is fewer than 200 words long

6) Anything else I deem to constitute a illegitimate debate

Anyone have any input?
dylancatlow
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2/21/2013 10:33:19 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/21/2013 10:32:22 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
I'm going to be conducting some research into the nature of ELO and actual debate skills. I have found that people with a very high win-loss ratio on the site tend to take easy debates or illegitimate ones.

The following will be the criteria for determining if a debate is 'Illegitimate'

1) Someone forfeits

2) One or fewer votes

3) The resolution is ridiculous or obviously flawed semantically

4) One or more of the rounds are ridiculous

5) One of the rounds is fewer than 200 words long

6) Anything else I deem to constitute a illegitimate debate


Anyone have any input?

200 words is too discriminating; I was thinking in characters, of which 200 applies.
dylancatlow
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2/21/2013 10:40:17 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/21/2013 10:34:56 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
ELO takes care of this.

Also, if forfeits are going to render debates illegitimate, everybody would forfeit.

I'm not calling for these criterion to actually be included in the ELO, for they are subject to obvious abuse.
F-16_Fighting_Falcon
Posts: 18,324
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2/21/2013 10:41:21 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
I agree with the notion that many people with high win-loss ratios debates with a lot of forfieters. However, forfeiters tend to be newer members with low Elo scores so Elo would account for that. Elo still takes win/loss ratio into account but it weights those wins and losses making it a better measure.

What do you plan to do with this anyways?
dylancatlow
Posts: 12,242
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2/21/2013 10:42:07 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/21/2013 10:34:56 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
ELO takes care of this.

Also, if forfeits are going to render debates illegitimate, everybody would forfeit.

How does ELO take into account a debate's legitimacy? I could see how ELO could take into account both parties' ELO when dishing out rank changes after a debate, but I don't see how it could go beyond that.
royalpaladin
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2/21/2013 10:43:21 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/21/2013 10:42:07 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 2/21/2013 10:34:56 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
ELO takes care of this.

Also, if forfeits are going to render debates illegitimate, everybody would forfeit.

How does ELO take into account a debate's legitimacy? I could see how ELO could take into account both parties' ELO when dishing out rank changes after a debate, but I don't see how it could go beyond that.

ELO is not just about win-loss record; it takes into account how good the debater you went against was. You can actually lose ELO points if you debate someone who is significantly worse than you are. That creates a disincentive for noob sniping.
dylancatlow
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2/21/2013 10:44:35 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/21/2013 10:41:21 PM, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:
I agree with the notion that many people with high win-loss ratios debates with a lot of forfieters. However, forfeiters tend to be newer members with low Elo scores so Elo would account for that. Elo still takes win/loss ratio into account but it weights those wins and losses making it a better measure.

What do you plan to do with this anyways?

Attempting to abolish the edifice of ELO being thought as the epitome of debate skills. Essentially, trying to take the EGO out of ELO.
F-16_Fighting_Falcon
Posts: 18,324
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2/21/2013 10:48:43 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/21/2013 10:44:35 PM, dylancatlow wrote:

Attempting to abolish the edifice of ELO being thought as the epitome of debate skills. Essentially, trying to take the EGO out of ELO.

It is not. But it is still a pretty good ranking mechanism and the best so far that we cou come up with. I've looked through your debate opponents and most people you have debated, I've never heard of. Perhaps that is why your elo is low. Try debating people who have high Elo scores. If you win, that will show in your Elo.
imabench
Posts: 21,206
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2/21/2013 10:51:49 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/21/2013 10:48:43 PM, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:
At 2/21/2013 10:44:35 PM, dylancatlow wrote:

Attempting to abolish the edifice of ELO being thought as the epitome of debate skills. Essentially, trying to take the EGO out of ELO.

It is not. But it is still a pretty good ranking mechanism and the best so far that we cou come up with. I've looked through your debate opponents and most people you have debated, I've never heard of. Perhaps that is why your elo is low. Try debating people who have high Elo scores. If you win, that will show in your Elo.

His win percentage is just 30%.... Call me crazy, but maybe his Elo would be higher if he actually won debates
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dylancatlow
Posts: 12,242
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2/21/2013 10:53:30 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/21/2013 10:48:43 PM, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:
At 2/21/2013 10:44:35 PM, dylancatlow wrote:

Attempting to abolish the edifice of ELO being thought as the epitome of debate skills. Essentially, trying to take the EGO out of ELO.

It is not. But it is still a pretty good ranking mechanism and the best so far that we cou come up with. I've looked through your debate opponents and most people you have debated, I've never heard of. Perhaps that is why your elo is low. Try debating people who have high Elo scores. If you win, that will show in your Elo.

You come across as condescending when you assume my motivation derives from my low elo. I concede that elo is the best number measure of debate skills, but it's far from representative, in my opinion.
dylancatlow
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2/21/2013 10:54:05 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/21/2013 10:51:49 PM, imabench wrote:
At 2/21/2013 10:48:43 PM, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:
At 2/21/2013 10:44:35 PM, dylancatlow wrote:

Attempting to abolish the edifice of ELO being thought as the epitome of debate skills. Essentially, trying to take the EGO out of ELO.

It is not. But it is still a pretty good ranking mechanism and the best so far that we cou come up with. I've looked through your debate opponents and most people you have debated, I've never heard of. Perhaps that is why your elo is low. Try debating people who have high Elo scores. If you win, that will show in your Elo.

His win percentage is just 30%.... Call me crazy, but maybe his Elo would be higher if he actually won debates

I'd call you crazy, anyway.
F-16_Fighting_Falcon
Posts: 18,324
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2/21/2013 10:56:31 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/21/2013 10:53:30 PM, dylancatlow wrote:

You come across as condescending when you assume my motivation derives from my low elo. I concede that elo is the best number measure of debate skills, but it's far from representative, in my opinion.

My apologies. Didn't mean to come off that way.

What is your real motivation then?
dylancatlow
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2/21/2013 10:58:03 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/21/2013 10:51:49 PM, imabench wrote:
At 2/21/2013 10:48:43 PM, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:
At 2/21/2013 10:44:35 PM, dylancatlow wrote:

Attempting to abolish the edifice of ELO being thought as the epitome of debate skills. Essentially, trying to take the EGO out of ELO.

It is not. But it is still a pretty good ranking mechanism and the best so far that we cou come up with. I've looked through your debate opponents and most people you have debated, I've never heard of. Perhaps that is why your elo is low. Try debating people who have high Elo scores. If you win, that will show in your Elo.

His win percentage is just 30%.... Call me crazy, but maybe his Elo would be higher if he actually won debates

Also, if you look through my debates, most of the time I took the unpopular position. Unpopularity is never good when working with a democratic system. I'm not claiming that I am the best debater, nor I'm I claiming I'm even a good debater. I think I have a lot to learn.
dylancatlow
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2/21/2013 10:59:28 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/21/2013 10:56:31 PM, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:
At 2/21/2013 10:53:30 PM, dylancatlow wrote:

You come across as condescending when you assume my motivation derives from my low elo. I concede that elo is the best number measure of debate skills, but it's far from representative, in my opinion.

My apologies. Didn't mean to come off that way.

What is your real motivation then?

The motivation of any salesman of an idea or notion.
royalpaladin
Posts: 22,357
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2/21/2013 10:59:56 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/21/2013 10:58:03 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 2/21/2013 10:51:49 PM, imabench wrote:
At 2/21/2013 10:48:43 PM, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:
At 2/21/2013 10:44:35 PM, dylancatlow wrote:

Attempting to abolish the edifice of ELO being thought as the epitome of debate skills. Essentially, trying to take the EGO out of ELO.

It is not. But it is still a pretty good ranking mechanism and the best so far that we cou come up with. I've looked through your debate opponents and most people you have debated, I've never heard of. Perhaps that is why your elo is low. Try debating people who have high Elo scores. If you win, that will show in your Elo.

His win percentage is just 30%.... Call me crazy, but maybe his Elo would be higher if he actually won debates

Also, if you look through my debates, most of the time I took the unpopular position. Unpopularity is never good when working with a democratic system. I'm not claiming that I am the best debater, nor I'm I claiming I'm even a good debater. I think I have a lot to learn.

This is DDO. Most people here have unpopular views. Most people are also more willing to support unpopular views because they think they're being edgy when they oppose the public
dylancatlow
Posts: 12,242
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2/21/2013 11:17:29 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/21/2013 10:59:56 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 2/21/2013 10:58:03 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 2/21/2013 10:51:49 PM, imabench wrote:
At 2/21/2013 10:48:43 PM, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:
At 2/21/2013 10:44:35 PM, dylancatlow wrote:

Attempting to abolish the edifice of ELO being thought as the epitome of debate skills. Essentially, trying to take the EGO out of ELO.

It is not. But it is still a pretty good ranking mechanism and the best so far that we cou come up with. I've looked through your debate opponents and most people you have debated, I've never heard of. Perhaps that is why your elo is low. Try debating people who have high Elo scores. If you win, that will show in your Elo.

His win percentage is just 30%.... Call me crazy, but maybe his Elo would be higher if he actually won debates

Also, if you look through my debates, most of the time I took the unpopular position. Unpopularity is never good when working with a democratic system. I'm not claiming that I am the best debater, nor I'm I claiming I'm even a good debater. I think I have a lot to learn.


This is DDO. Most people here have unpopular views. Most people are also more willing to support unpopular views because they think they're being edgy when they oppose the public

That's why most people don't have high elos. Almost anything that the 'most' are doing should be excluded from one's actions if he or she want to deviate enough to be considered 'good.'
royalpaladin
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2/21/2013 11:20:18 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/21/2013 11:17:29 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 2/21/2013 10:59:56 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 2/21/2013 10:58:03 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 2/21/2013 10:51:49 PM, imabench wrote:
At 2/21/2013 10:48:43 PM, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:
At 2/21/2013 10:44:35 PM, dylancatlow wrote:

Attempting to abolish the edifice of ELO being thought as the epitome of debate skills. Essentially, trying to take the EGO out of ELO.

It is not. But it is still a pretty good ranking mechanism and the best so far that we cou come up with. I've looked through your debate opponents and most people you have debated, I've never heard of. Perhaps that is why your elo is low. Try debating people who have high Elo scores. If you win, that will show in your Elo.

His win percentage is just 30%.... Call me crazy, but maybe his Elo would be higher if he actually won debates

Also, if you look through my debates, most of the time I took the unpopular position. Unpopularity is never good when working with a democratic system. I'm not claiming that I am the best debater, nor I'm I claiming I'm even a good debater. I think I have a lot to learn.


This is DDO. Most people here have unpopular views. Most people are also more willing to support unpopular views because they think they're being edgy when they oppose the public

That's why most people don't have high elos. Almost anything that the 'most' are doing should be excluded from one's actions if he or she want to deviate enough to be considered 'good.'

Um, no.

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dylancatlow
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2/21/2013 11:20:23 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
While I don't think supporting an unpopular resolution is a death-sentence, doing so most certainty makes it considerably harder to win.
malcolmxy
Posts: 2,855
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2/21/2013 11:22:48 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/21/2013 10:51:49 PM, imabench wrote:
At 2/21/2013 10:48:43 PM, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:
At 2/21/2013 10:44:35 PM, dylancatlow wrote:

Attempting to abolish the edifice of ELO being thought as the epitome of debate skills. Essentially, trying to take the EGO out of ELO.

It is not. But it is still a pretty good ranking mechanism and the best so far that we cou come up with. I've looked through your debate opponents and most people you have debated, I've never heard of. Perhaps that is why your elo is low. Try debating people who have high Elo scores. If you win, that will show in your Elo.

His win percentage is just 30%.... Call me crazy, but maybe his Elo would be higher if he actually won debates

Yeah...

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jhon123's account is no longer active.

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I didn't realize when you said you didn't want to debate me due to my 20% win ratio it's because that would represent your toughest competition ever faced here. I'm sorry...I can build a new account and appear to be a cream puff, too.

Will you debate me then, "champ"?
War is over, if you want it.

Meet Dr. Stupid and his assistants - http://www.debate.org...
royalpaladin
Posts: 22,357
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2/21/2013 11:23:11 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/21/2013 11:20:23 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
While I don't think supporting an unpopular resolution is a death-sentence, doing so most certainty makes it considerably harder to win.

What's the basis for this? I just provided evidence that the top debaters on the site have unpopular views. It doesn't make it harder to win on a site in which most people have unpopular views.
malcolmxy
Posts: 2,855
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2/21/2013 11:24:11 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
What if, like Imabench, they'll only agree to face the Washington Generals in competition?
War is over, if you want it.

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dylancatlow
Posts: 12,242
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2/21/2013 11:25:31 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Which debates one enters and which positions one takes, I think, verges on being just as significant than the quality of one's arguments (assuming both parties are within the same vicinity with the quality of their arguments) for how high or low one's elo is.
royalpaladin
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2/21/2013 11:26:41 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/21/2013 11:25:31 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
Which debates one enters and which positions one takes, I think, verges on being just as significant than the quality of one's arguments (assuming both parties are within the same vicinity with the quality of their arguments) for how high or low one's elo is.

Where is the evidence?
dylancatlow
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2/21/2013 11:27:42 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/21/2013 11:23:11 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 2/21/2013 11:20:23 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
While I don't think supporting an unpopular resolution is a death-sentence, doing so most certainty makes it considerably harder to win.

What's the basis for this? I just provided evidence that the top debaters on the site have unpopular views. It doesn't make it harder to win on a site in which most people have unpopular views.

It is patently evidence in instances, and arguably prevalent over the macro. Also, I'd disagree that the top ten debaters tend to take unpopular positions on their debates.
One's ideology doesn't necessarily hinder one's chances if he or she doesn't tend to take hard-to-defend positions.
dylancatlow
Posts: 12,242
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2/21/2013 11:28:41 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/21/2013 11:26:41 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 2/21/2013 11:25:31 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
Which debates one enters and which positions one takes, I think, verges on being just as significant than the quality of one's arguments (assuming both parties are within the same vicinity with the quality of their arguments) for how high or low one's elo is.

Where is the evidence?

That's what the research is for. As of now, it's more or less a conviction I hold.
dylancatlow
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2/21/2013 11:28:52 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/21/2013 11:27:42 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 2/21/2013 11:23:11 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 2/21/2013 11:20:23 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
While I don't think supporting an unpopular resolution is a death-sentence, doing so most certainty makes it considerably harder to win.

What's the basis for this? I just provided evidence that the top debaters on the site have unpopular views. It doesn't make it harder to win on a site in which most people have unpopular views.

It is patently evidence in instances, and arguably prevalent over the macro. Also, I'd disagree that the top ten debaters tend to take unpopular positions on their debates.
One's ideology doesn't necessarily hinder one's chances if he or she doesn't tend to take hard-to-defend positions.

evident *
royalpaladin
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2/21/2013 11:29:21 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/21/2013 11:27:42 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 2/21/2013 11:23:11 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 2/21/2013 11:20:23 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
While I don't think supporting an unpopular resolution is a death-sentence, doing so most certainty makes it considerably harder to win.

What's the basis for this? I just provided evidence that the top debaters on the site have unpopular views. It doesn't make it harder to win on a site in which most people have unpopular views.

It is patently evidence in instances, and arguably prevalent over the macro. Also, I'd disagree that the top ten debaters tend to take unpopular positions on their debates.
One's ideology doesn't necessarily hinder one's chances if he or she doesn't tend to take hard-to-defend positions.

I don't care about what you think. If you are making assertions, you need to back them up.
thett3
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2/21/2013 11:29:23 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/21/2013 11:27:42 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 2/21/2013 11:23:11 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 2/21/2013 11:20:23 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
While I don't think supporting an unpopular resolution is a death-sentence, doing so most certainty makes it considerably harder to win.

What's the basis for this? I just provided evidence that the top debaters on the site have unpopular views. It doesn't make it harder to win on a site in which most people have unpopular views.

It is patently evidence in instances, and arguably prevalent over the macro. Also, I'd disagree that the top ten debaters tend to take unpopular positions on their debates.
One's ideology doesn't necessarily hinder one's chances if he or she doesn't tend to take hard-to-defend positions.

This is a libertarian dominated site, and the top two debaters are a statist conservative and an anarcho-communists. And yes they do frequently take unpopular positions
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