Total Posts:25|Showing Posts:1-25
Jump to topic:

Votebombing Plagiarism problem

wiploc
Posts: 1,485
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/24/2013 6:55:59 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
William Lane Craig's Moral argument is flawed.
KingDebater vs Typhlochactas
http://www.debate.org...

Secondguy plagiarized. Here's the paragraph in question. I'm putting it in boldface:

An objective moral prescriber is necessary for objective moral prescriptions, and an objective moral standard is necessary for objective moral values. God is a maximally great being, and since it's intuitively greater to be the standard of moral perfection rather than exemplify it, then it follows that God would be the moral standard were he to exist, which makes him uniquely qualified in issuing commands. Therefore, God is the most plausible and least arbitrary standard, necessary for moral reality. (Apeiron)

This is not typographically or otherwise distinguished from other paragraphs which are Secondguy's own words. The representation, then, is that Secondguy got an idea from Apeiron, and he's crediting Apeiron for the idea. He's not crediting Apeiron for the words, though. To do that, he would put them in quotes, or otherwise (as I did in the boldface paragraph above) make it clear that they are a quotation.

Since Secondguy represented Apeiron's words as his own, I voted source points against him. Since he cited Apeiron, it is my belief that Secondguy wasn't trying to cheat; he just didn't know how to quote someone. So I didn't do a full seven-point forfeit, which I usually do to plagiarists. I just voted source points.

AnthraSite countered my vote. He countered on the grounds that I didn't vote persuasion points to Secondguy. Called my source-points vote biased, because I didn't agree with him on who won persuasion.

So I added two points (S&G and conduct) to counter AnthraSite's counter.

Then Apeiron countered my counter-counter, on the grounds he gave Secondguy permission to copy his words. He cannot give permission to plagiarize. We can copy each others' words, but we can't represent them as being our own.

Update: AntraSite has dropped his counter. Apeiron is still counter-countering. Secondguy claims I don't even know what plagiarism is.

So, I'd like some comments from DDO authorities, or people who know about plagiarism and how to do quotations.
drafterman
Posts: 18,870
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/24/2013 7:01:36 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
While no rigorous citation/reference system (a la APA, Chicago, etc.) is in place here, there is still the spirit of citation and plagiarism the entire point of which is to not pass off other people's work as your own.

If this were, for example, a graded paper, he would probably get dinged on an improper quotation. A quotation of that length should be separated from the paragraph it appears in and indented, with either an introduction, inline citation, or a citation at the end of the quote, along with a link to the source. I doubt, however, that the paper would be out-right thrown out as an accusation of plagiarism.

Since he didn't link to the source of the quote (important in order to determine the relevance, authenticity, and application of the material) I certainly would take points away, though not necessarily for failing to distinguish the quoted material in some fashion.
F-16_Fighting_Falcon
Posts: 18,324
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/24/2013 7:10:54 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Apeiron's RFD was nothing fabulous and in no way better than yours. I think the excess points that he gave should be counter-countered since he had no valid reasoning for countering you anyways.

As for the actual plagiarism, drafterman summed it up well. I pretty much agree. I'll counter-counter Apeiron if that is the best thing to do.
wiploc
Posts: 1,485
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/24/2013 7:52:47 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/24/2013 7:10:54 PM, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:
I'll counter-counter Apeiron if that is the best thing to do.

Actually, since the guy I countered has withdrawn his counter of me, Apeiron's counter is balanced against mine. I'll try removing my counter, and see if Apeiron does the same.
1Devilsadvocate
Posts: 1,518
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/24/2013 9:37:04 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Was Aperion informed about this?
I cannot write in English, because of the treacherous spelling. When I am reading, I only hear it and am unable to remember what the written word looks like."
"Albert Einstein

http://www.twainquotes.com... , http://thewritecorner.wordpress.com... , http://www.onlinecollegecourses.com...
Apeiron
Posts: 2,446
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/24/2013 9:47:24 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/24/2013 6:55:59 PM, wiploc wrote:
William Lane Craig's Moral argument is flawed.
KingDebater vs Typhlochactas
http://www.debate.org...

Secondguy plagiarized. Here's the paragraph in question. I'm putting it in boldface:

An objective moral prescriber is necessary for objective moral prescriptions, and an objective moral standard is necessary for objective moral values. God is a maximally great being, and since it's intuitively greater to be the standard of moral perfection rather than exemplify it, then it follows that God would be the moral standard were he to exist, which makes him uniquely qualified in issuing commands. Therefore, God is the most plausible and least arbitrary standard, necessary for moral reality. (Apeiron)

This is not typographically or otherwise distinguished from other paragraphs which are Secondguy's own words. The representation, then, is that Secondguy got an idea from Apeiron, and he's crediting Apeiron for the idea. He's not crediting Apeiron for the words, though. To do that, he would put them in quotes, or otherwise (as I did in the boldface paragraph above) make it clear that they are a quotation.

Since Secondguy represented Apeiron's words as his own, I voted source points against him. Since he cited Apeiron, it is my belief that Secondguy wasn't trying to cheat; he just didn't know how to quote someone. So I didn't do a full seven-point forfeit, which I usually do to plagiarists. I just voted source points.

AnthraSite countered my vote. He countered on the grounds that I didn't vote persuasion points to Secondguy. Called my source-points vote biased, because I didn't agree with him on who won persuasion.

So I added two points (S&G and conduct) to counter AnthraSite's counter.

Then Apeiron countered my counter-counter, on the grounds he gave Secondguy permission to copy his words. He cannot give permission to plagiarize. We can copy each others' words, but we can't represent them as being our own.

Update: AntraSite has dropped his counter. Apeiron is still counter-countering. Secondguy claims I don't even know what plagiarism is.

So, I'd like some comments from DDO authorities, or people who know about plagiarism and how to do quotations.

This is so ridiculously nitpickity I'm amazed this much time exists for folks.

I told him he could use whatever I write, this kids in high school, and this isn't the APA.
Apeiron
Posts: 2,446
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/24/2013 9:56:03 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/24/2013 7:10:54 PM, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:
Apeiron's RFD was nothing fabulous and in no way better than yours. I think the excess points that he gave should be counter-countered since he had no valid reasoning for countering you anyways.

Try my giving him permission as a valid reason.

As for the actual plagiarism, drafterman summed it up well. I pretty much agree. I'll counter-counter Apeiron if that is the best thing to do.

Bad choice then, I'll just as equally get someone to counter-counter-counter, we can push this as far as it goes to where it gets ridiculous... could be fun!
F-16_Fighting_Falcon
Posts: 18,324
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/24/2013 10:05:21 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/24/2013 9:56:03 PM, Apeiron wrote:
At 2/24/2013 7:10:54 PM, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:
Apeiron's RFD was nothing fabulous and in no way better than yours. I think the excess points that he gave should be counter-countered since he had no valid reasoning for countering you anyways.

Try my giving him permission as a valid reason.

Your vote wasn't better than Wiploc's. If you think countering him is justified, countering you is justified as well.

As for the actual plagiarism, drafterman summed it up well. I pretty much agree. I'll counter-counter Apeiron if that is the best thing to do.

Bad choice then, I'll just as equally get someone to counter-counter-counter, we can push this as far as it goes to where it gets ridiculous... could be fun!

Wiploc doesn't want it anyways so you guys can figure it out.
Apeiron
Posts: 2,446
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/24/2013 10:29:03 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/24/2013 10:05:21 PM, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:
At 2/24/2013 9:56:03 PM, Apeiron wrote:
At 2/24/2013 7:10:54 PM, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:
Apeiron's RFD was nothing fabulous and in no way better than yours. I think the excess points that he gave should be counter-countered since he had no valid reasoning for countering you anyways.

Try my giving him permission as a valid reason.

Your vote wasn't better than Wiploc's. If you think countering him is justified, countering you is justified as well.

If my counter is justified, how in the world does it follow that countering my justified counter is justified? .... That's nonsense.

As for the actual plagiarism, drafterman summed it up well. I pretty much agree. I'll counter-counter Apeiron if that is the best thing to do.

Bad choice then, I'll just as equally get someone to counter-counter-counter, we can push this as far as it goes to where it gets ridiculous... could be fun!

Wiploc doesn't want it anyways so you guys can figure it out.

Ok, then what's your concern in this bro?
Apeiron
Posts: 2,446
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/24/2013 10:33:17 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/24/2013 10:17:13 PM, drafterman wrote:
What does permission have to do with plagiarism and proper citations/references?

On a forum site? It means, simply, that you can use my material however you want.
F-16_Fighting_Falcon
Posts: 18,324
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/24/2013 10:35:09 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/24/2013 10:29:03 PM, Apeiron wrote:

If my counter is justified, how in the world does it follow that countering my justified counter is justified? .... That's nonsense.

No, I meant, countering your actual vote would be justified if countering Wiploc is justified.
airmax1227
Posts: 13,245
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/24/2013 10:35:22 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/24/2013 10:33:17 PM, Apeiron wrote:
At 2/24/2013 10:17:13 PM, drafterman wrote:
What does permission have to do with plagiarism and proper citations/references?

On a forum site? It means, simply, that you can use my material however you want.

I don't think the concern here is that he is going to get sued by you... Even with your permission, not citing the material is plagiarism.
Debate.org Moderator
Apeiron
Posts: 2,446
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/24/2013 10:40:07 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/24/2013 10:35:09 PM, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:
At 2/24/2013 10:29:03 PM, Apeiron wrote:

If my counter is justified, how in the world does it follow that countering my justified counter is justified? .... That's nonsense.

No, I meant, countering your actual vote would be justified if countering Wiploc is justified.

I know, how in the world is that coherent?
wiploc
Posts: 1,485
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/24/2013 10:43:52 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/24/2013 10:33:17 PM, Apeiron wrote:
At 2/24/2013 10:17:13 PM, drafterman wrote:
What does permission have to do with plagiarism and proper citations/references?

On a forum site? It means, simply, that you can use my material however you want.

DDO cannot tolerate plagiarism. You can't get around that by giving permission to plagiarize.
Apeiron
Posts: 2,446
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/24/2013 10:44:35 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/24/2013 10:42:03 PM, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:
At 2/24/2013 10:40:07 PM, Apeiron wrote:

I know, how in the world is that coherent?

Because your vote was worse than his.

Watch this- no it isn't.

See how that bare assertion works? Now, want to justify your claim? Or are we just trapped in a pissing contents?
larztheloser
Posts: 857
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/24/2013 11:14:20 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/24/2013 10:43:52 PM, wiploc wrote:
At 2/24/2013 10:33:17 PM, Apeiron wrote:
At 2/24/2013 10:17:13 PM, drafterman wrote:
What does permission have to do with plagiarism and proper citations/references?

On a forum site? It means, simply, that you can use my material however you want.

DDO cannot tolerate plagiarism. You can't get around that by giving permission to plagiarize.

On a minor, technical note - since Juggle owns all the content that is posted on this website, that has a bearing in some countries over who exactly owns the copyright and is therefore able to give permission.
Apeiron
Posts: 2,446
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/24/2013 11:55:10 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/24/2013 10:43:52 PM, wiploc wrote:
At 2/24/2013 10:33:17 PM, Apeiron wrote:
At 2/24/2013 10:17:13 PM, drafterman wrote:
What does permission have to do with plagiarism and proper citations/references?

On a forum site? It means, simply, that you can use my material however you want.

DDO cannot tolerate plagiarism. You can't get around that by giving permission to plagiarize.

Plagiarism is using material without permission, I told him he can use it. That's permission. Are you out of your mind?
wiploc
Posts: 1,485
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/25/2013 12:55:27 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/24/2013 11:55:10 PM, Apeiron wrote:
Plagiarism is using material without permission,

That's one way to plagiarize. Do you think it's the only way? Here's one definition from dictionary.com: "the act of taking the writings of another person and passing them off as one's own." It doesn't say anything about doing that _without permission_.

How would you feel if I pretended to debate against you by cut and pasting from Christopher Hitchens' work (with permission), so that you thought you were debating me but you were really debating Hitchens, and so that you were working hard but I was only cut-and-pasting?

We're supposed to do our own work here. If we pretend that we're doing our own work, but actually substituting someone else's work, we are cheating, and we deserve the full seven-point forfeit.

I told him he can use it. That's permission.

That's permission to use it. It's not permission to pretend he wrote it. You can't give permission to pretend he wrote it. The person he's debating against would have to give that permission.

Let me be clear that I don't think he intended to deceive. He wasn't trying to cheat; he just didn't know to put quotations in quotation marks. That's something he needs to learn. It's a necessary skill in real life, if he doesn't want to flunk out when he gets to college. Having an "X" for cheating on your transcript is much worse than having an "F." You aren't doing him any favor by encouraging him to screw it up.

Are you out of your mind?

Reduced to insults? Then we know where we stand.
TSH
Posts: 260
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/25/2013 1:23:50 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
Two words: public domain (aka common knowledge).

It would kind of defeat the point of having works in the public domain if you had to cite them.

"Do I have to cite my source when using a public domain document?

Legally, you are not compelled to provide attribution when using an item from the public domain. It is common practice in academia, however, to show respect for others by providing attribution, even when using public domain material."

This is not academia.

http://www.cmich.edu...
http://www.usg.edu...
etc.
~tsh
TSH
Posts: 260
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/25/2013 1:30:45 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
Assuming Apeiron released his paragraph into the public domain, I don't see how it's plagiarism.

At 2/25/2013 1:23:50 AM, TSH wrote:
Two words: public domain (aka common knowledge).

It would kind of defeat the point of having works in the public domain if you had to cite them.

"Do I have to cite my source when using a public domain document?

Legally, you are not compelled to provide attribution when using an item from the public domain. It is common practice in academia, however, to show respect for others by providing attribution, even when using public domain material."

This is not academia.

http://www.cmich.edu...
http://www.usg.edu...
etc.
~tsh
wiploc
Posts: 1,485
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/25/2013 10:18:23 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/25/2013 1:23:50 AM, TSH wrote:
This is not academia.

How would you respond if someone argued that she shouldn't be penalized for spelling and grammar because "This is not academia"?
1Devilsadvocate
Posts: 1,518
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/25/2013 1:17:02 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/25/2013 10:18:23 AM, wiploc wrote:
At 2/25/2013 1:23:50 AM, TSH wrote:
This is not academia.

How would you respond if someone argued that she shouldn't be penalized for spelling and grammar because "This is not academia"?

I thought S&G points are only taken if they made the argument difficult to understand.
As opposed to just any small mistake.
I cannot write in English, because of the treacherous spelling. When I am reading, I only hear it and am unable to remember what the written word looks like."
"Albert Einstein

http://www.twainquotes.com... , http://thewritecorner.wordpress.com... , http://www.onlinecollegecourses.com...
wiploc
Posts: 1,485
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/25/2013 2:31:43 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/25/2013 1:17:02 PM, 1Devilsadvocate wrote:
At 2/25/2013 10:18:23 AM, wiploc wrote:
At 2/25/2013 1:23:50 AM, TSH wrote:
This is not academia.

How would you respond if someone argued that she shouldn't be penalized for spelling and grammar because "This is not academia"?

I thought S&G points are only taken if they made the argument difficult to understand.
As opposed to just any small mistake.

That's how I do it. If I happen to notice a few errors, I overlook it. But if one party's S&G is a significant nuisance, and the other is okay, then I award the point.