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A Discussion on Burden of Proof

Daktoria
Posts: 497
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3/16/2013 11:03:36 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Can we understand something about burden of proof?

People are entitled to be skeptical such that negative assumptions can be made.

For example, say we have an hourglass hooked up to a laser device. As long as sand pours from the top to the bottom, the laser fires.

The hourglass does not have unlimited sand.

Therefore, is it fair to say the laser will stop firing, and a new trigger will be needed to continue the laser's fire?
wiploc
Posts: 1,485
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3/17/2013 5:20:49 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
I couldn't prove that you have an issue in mind, that you want this thread to be about that issue, but that you neglected to clearly articulate what that issue is. So it's a good thing I don't have the burden of proof.
Zaradi
Posts: 14,126
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3/17/2013 5:59:02 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/17/2013 5:20:49 PM, wiploc wrote:
I couldn't prove that you have an issue in mind, that you want this thread to be about that issue, but that you neglected to clearly articulate what that issue is. So it's a good thing I don't have the burden of proof.
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Raisor
Posts: 4,462
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3/17/2013 6:08:45 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/17/2013 5:20:49 PM, wiploc wrote:
I couldn't prove that you have an issue in mind, that you want this thread to be about that issue, but that you neglected to clearly articulate what that issue is. So it's a good thing I don't have the burden of proof.

I love it when someone else articulates exactly what you were thinking but better than you could have.
F-16_Fighting_Falcon
Posts: 18,324
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3/17/2013 6:11:44 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/17/2013 5:59:02 PM, Zaradi wrote:
At 3/17/2013 5:20:49 PM, wiploc wrote:
I couldn't prove that you have an issue in mind, that you want this thread to be about that issue, but that you neglected to clearly articulate what that issue is. So it's a good thing I don't have the burden of proof.

What exactly is the purpose of this post? Wiploc had already said everything that is mentioned in your post so I don't see the point of it.
wiploc
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3/17/2013 7:08:03 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/17/2013 6:11:44 PM, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:
At 3/17/2013 5:59:02 PM, Zaradi wrote:
At 3/17/2013 5:20:49 PM, wiploc wrote:
I couldn't prove that you have an issue in mind, that you want this thread to be about that issue, but that you neglected to clearly articulate what that issue is. So it's a good thing I don't have the burden of proof.

What exactly is the purpose of this post? Wiploc had already said everything that is mentioned in your post so I don't see the point of it.

It is my impression that people---at DDO only---reproduce posts they agree with without comment.

At other websites, they add "Ditto" or "^This" or "Bingo!" or "Yes," but here they just reproduce the original text.
Raisor
Posts: 4,462
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3/17/2013 7:10:05 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/17/2013 6:11:44 PM, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:
At 3/17/2013 5:59:02 PM, Zaradi wrote:
At 3/17/2013 5:20:49 PM, wiploc wrote:
I couldn't prove that you have an issue in mind, that you want this thread to be about that issue, but that you neglected to clearly articulate what that issue is. So it's a good thing I don't have the burden of proof.

What exactly is the purpose of this post? Wiploc had already said everything that is mentioned in your post so I don't see the point of it.

He is repeating wiploc to underscore that he agrees with wiploc so completely that nothing needs to be added to his post.

Zaradi is emphasizing the popular support behind wiploc's sentiment.
RyuuKyuzo
Posts: 3,074
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3/17/2013 7:13:20 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/17/2013 7:10:05 PM, Raisor wrote:
At 3/17/2013 6:11:44 PM, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:
At 3/17/2013 5:59:02 PM, Zaradi wrote:
At 3/17/2013 5:20:49 PM, wiploc wrote:
I couldn't prove that you have an issue in mind, that you want this thread to be about that issue, but that you neglected to clearly articulate what that issue is. So it's a good thing I don't have the burden of proof.

What exactly is the purpose of this post? Wiploc had already said everything that is mentioned in your post so I don't see the point of it.

He is repeating wiploc to underscore that he agrees with wiploc so completely that nothing needs to be added to his post.

Zaradi is emphasizing the popular support behind wiploc's sentiment.
If you're reading this, you're awesome and you should feel awesome.
Raisor
Posts: 4,462
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3/17/2013 7:33:19 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/17/2013 7:08:03 PM, wiploc wrote:
At 3/17/2013 6:11:44 PM, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:
At 3/17/2013 5:59:02 PM, Zaradi wrote:
At 3/17/2013 5:20:49 PM, wiploc wrote:
I couldn't prove that you have an issue in mind, that you want this thread to be about that issue, but that you neglected to clearly articulate what that issue is. So it's a good thing I don't have the burden of proof.

What exactly is the purpose of this post? Wiploc had already said everything that is mentioned in your post so I don't see the point of it.

It is my impression that people---at DDO only---reproduce posts they agree with without comment.

At other websites, they add "Ditto" or "^This" or "Bingo!" or "Yes," but here they just reproduce the original text.

I think just quoting is more tasteful. In order of preference I would rank the alternative responses: "Ditto"/"Yes" (tied), "Bingo!," "This."
F-16_Fighting_Falcon
Posts: 18,324
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3/17/2013 7:38:52 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
I find quoting annoying. Although that is not the case here, the most annoying versions of quoting are where the initial question has been responded to and the quoter quotes anyways. This shows mob mentality as opposed to a desire to discuss the issues. Saying "I agree with x because ... and would like to add... " is much more courteous and tasteful.
RyuuKyuzo
Posts: 3,074
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3/17/2013 7:52:41 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/17/2013 7:38:52 PM, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:
I find quoting annoying. Although that is not the case here, the most annoying versions of quoting are where the initial question has been responded to and the quoter quotes anyways. This shows mob mentality as opposed to a desire to discuss the issues. Saying "I agree with x because ... and would like to add... " is much more courteous and tasteful.

This.
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wiploc
Posts: 1,485
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3/17/2013 10:24:51 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/17/2013 7:38:52 PM, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:
I find quoting annoying. Although that is not the case here, the most annoying versions of quoting are where the initial question has been responded to and the quoter quotes anyways. This shows mob mentality as opposed to a desire to discuss the issues. Saying "I agree with x because ... and would like to add... " is much more courteous and tasteful.

Well said.
RyuuKyuzo
Posts: 3,074
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3/17/2013 10:26:16 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/17/2013 10:24:51 PM, wiploc wrote:
At 3/17/2013 7:38:52 PM, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:
I find quoting annoying. Although that is not the case here, the most annoying versions of quoting are where the initial question has been responded to and the quoter quotes anyways. This shows mob mentality as opposed to a desire to discuss the issues. Saying "I agree with x because ... and would like to add... " is much more courteous and tasteful.

Well said.

I agree with this because ditto bingo.
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Zaradi
Posts: 14,126
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3/17/2013 10:34:59 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/17/2013 10:26:16 PM, RyuuKyuzo wrote:
At 3/17/2013 10:24:51 PM, wiploc wrote:
At 3/17/2013 7:38:52 PM, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:
I find quoting annoying. Although that is not the case here, the most annoying versions of quoting are where the initial question has been responded to and the quoter quotes anyways. This shows mob mentality as opposed to a desire to discuss the issues. Saying "I agree with x because ... and would like to add... " is much more courteous and tasteful.

Well said.

I agree with this because ditto bingo.

YES!
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thett3
Posts: 14,378
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3/17/2013 10:36:44 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/17/2013 10:34:59 PM, Zaradi wrote:
At 3/17/2013 10:26:16 PM, RyuuKyuzo wrote:
At 3/17/2013 10:24:51 PM, wiploc wrote:
At 3/17/2013 7:38:52 PM, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:
I find quoting annoying. Although that is not the case here, the most annoying versions of quoting are where the initial question has been responded to and the quoter quotes anyways. This shows mob mentality as opposed to a desire to discuss the issues. Saying "I agree with x because ... and would like to add... " is much more courteous and tasteful.

Well said.

I agree with this because ditto bingo.

YES!

This.
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"Don't quote me, ever." -Max

"My name is max. I'm not a big fan of slacks"- Max rapping

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: At 11/12/2016 11:49:40 PM, Raisor wrote:
: thett was right
thett3
Posts: 14,378
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3/17/2013 10:38:32 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/17/2013 10:37:24 PM, Zaradi wrote:
Can we call the thread derailed yet?

Hows your foot?
DDO Vice President

#StandwithBossy

#UnbanTheMadman

#BetOnThett

"Don't quote me, ever." -Max

"My name is max. I'm not a big fan of slacks"- Max rapping

"Walmart should have the opportunity to bribe a politician to it's agenda" -Max

"Thett, you're really good at convincing people you're a decent person"-tulle

"You fit the character of Regina George quite nicely"- Sam

: At 11/12/2016 11:49:40 PM, Raisor wrote:
: thett was right
Zaradi
Posts: 14,126
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3/17/2013 10:50:58 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/17/2013 10:38:32 PM, thett3 wrote:
At 3/17/2013 10:37:24 PM, Zaradi wrote:
Can we call the thread derailed yet?

Hows your foot?

Recovering. I stubbed it on my laundry hamper today---

Wait, how did you know my foot was hurting me????? O.O
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wiploc
Posts: 1,485
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3/17/2013 10:52:23 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/17/2013 10:36:44 PM, thett3 wrote:
At 3/17/2013 10:34:59 PM, Zaradi wrote:
At 3/17/2013 10:26:16 PM, RyuuKyuzo wrote:
At 3/17/2013 10:24:51 PM, wiploc wrote:
At 3/17/2013 7:38:52 PM, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:
I find quoting annoying. Although that is not the case here, the most annoying versions of quoting are where the initial question has been responded to and the quoter quotes anyways. This shows mob mentality as opposed to a desire to discuss the issues. Saying "I agree with x because ... and would like to add... " is much more courteous and tasteful.

Well said.

I agree with this because ditto bingo.

YES!

This.

There's supposed to be a little arrow next to it, pointing up at the post above.

Thus:

^This.

Not:

This.
Zaradi
Posts: 14,126
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3/17/2013 10:57:43 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/17/2013 10:52:23 PM, wiploc wrote:
At 3/17/2013 10:36:44 PM, thett3 wrote:
At 3/17/2013 10:34:59 PM, Zaradi wrote:
At 3/17/2013 10:26:16 PM, RyuuKyuzo wrote:
At 3/17/2013 10:24:51 PM, wiploc wrote:
At 3/17/2013 7:38:52 PM, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:
I find quoting annoying. Although that is not the case here, the most annoying versions of quoting are where the initial question has been responded to and the quoter quotes anyways. This shows mob mentality as opposed to a desire to discuss the issues. Saying "I agree with x because ... and would like to add... " is much more courteous and tasteful.

Well said.

I agree with this because ditto bingo.

YES!

This.

There's supposed to be a little arrow next to it, pointing up at the post above.

Thus:

^This.

Not:

This.

This.
Want to debate? Pick a topic and hit me up! - http://www.debate.org...
wiploc
Posts: 1,485
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3/17/2013 11:11:54 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/17/2013 10:37:24 PM, Zaradi wrote:
Can we call the thread derailed yet?

We cannot confirm that it is derailed until we know what it was supposed to be about.
Zaradi
Posts: 14,126
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3/17/2013 11:14:19 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/17/2013 11:11:54 PM, wiploc wrote:
At 3/17/2013 10:37:24 PM, Zaradi wrote:
Can we call the thread derailed yet?

We cannot confirm that it is derailed until we know what it was supposed to be about.

Isn't the fact that we don't know what it was about anymore confirm the fact that it's derailed?
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RyuuKyuzo
Posts: 3,074
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3/18/2013 2:42:27 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/17/2013 11:14:19 PM, Zaradi wrote:
At 3/17/2013 11:11:54 PM, wiploc wrote:
At 3/17/2013 10:37:24 PM, Zaradi wrote:
Can we call the thread derailed yet?

We cannot confirm that it is derailed until we know what it was supposed to be about.

Isn't the fact that we don't know what it was about anymore confirm the fact that it's derailed?

I guess the answer to that question depends on who has the burden of proof in this case. If only there way a thread dedicated to a discussion on BoP =/...
If you're reading this, you're awesome and you should feel awesome.
Daktoria
Posts: 497
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3/18/2013 8:51:31 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/17/2013 5:20:49 PM, wiploc wrote:
I couldn't prove that you have an issue in mind, that you want this thread to be about that issue, but that you neglected to clearly articulate what that issue is. So it's a good thing I don't have the burden of proof.

Why does this thread have to be about a particular issue? Are you prejudiced?
Zaradi
Posts: 14,126
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3/18/2013 8:56:16 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/18/2013 8:51:31 AM, Daktoria wrote:
At 3/17/2013 5:20:49 PM, wiploc wrote:
I couldn't prove that you have an issue in mind, that you want this thread to be about that issue, but that you neglected to clearly articulate what that issue is. So it's a good thing I don't have the burden of proof.

Why does this thread have to be about a particular issue? Are you prejudiced?

Thread Title: Romney is a liar
Topics up for discussion: Kittens, the WNBA, and male strippers.
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Daktoria
Posts: 497
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3/22/2013 2:12:46 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/18/2013 2:42:27 AM, RyuuKyuzo wrote:
At 3/17/2013 11:14:19 PM, Zaradi wrote:
At 3/17/2013 11:11:54 PM, wiploc wrote:
At 3/17/2013 10:37:24 PM, Zaradi wrote:
Can we call the thread derailed yet?

We cannot confirm that it is derailed until we know what it was supposed to be about.

Isn't the fact that we don't know what it was about anymore confirm the fact that it's derailed?

I guess the answer to that question depends on who has the burden of proof in this case. If only there way a thread dedicated to a discussion on BoP =/...

That's what was being discussed.
RoyLatham
Posts: 4,488
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3/22/2013 3:59:08 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
I think the thread is about whether proof of a negative can satisfy the burden of proof in a debate. The answer is yes, negative proofs can meet the burden and in the example given, it does.
Daktoria
Posts: 497
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3/22/2013 7:29:02 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/22/2013 3:59:08 PM, RoyLatham wrote:
I think the thread is about whether proof of a negative can satisfy the burden of proof in a debate. The answer is yes, negative proofs can meet the burden and in the example given, it does.

...but it doesn't count as a proof because we don't know that the hourglass will run out. We just know that if it runs out, the laser will stop firing.

Similarly, say we have a budget for a social program. If the budget runs out, the program will need new funding...

...but we don't know if the budget will run out yet... even though it's finite and running. That is we don't know that resources will run out until time passes.
RoyLatham
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3/23/2013 12:23:45 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/22/2013 7:29:02 PM, Daktoria wrote:
At 3/22/2013 3:59:08 PM, RoyLatham wrote:
I think the thread is about whether proof of a negative can satisfy the burden of proof in a debate. The answer is yes, negative proofs can meet the burden and in the example given, it does.

...but it doesn't count as a proof because we don't know that the hourglass will run out. We just know that if it runs out, the laser will stop firing.

Similarly, say we have a budget for a social program. If the budget runs out, the program will need new funding...

...but we don't know if the budget will run out yet... even though it's finite and running. That is we don't know that resources will run out until time passes.

If a finite resource is being consumed, that is proof it will run out. We know that the earth will eventually run out of oil. We don't know when, so that means the timing is debatable but not the ultimate outcome. In the case of oil, it makes a big different whether the answer is 25 years or a hundred years, so that makes for a good debate on the timing.

I don't understand your point about social programs. We know that continual high levels of deficit spending lead to bankruptcy, while the timing remains debatable. We've seen bankruptcy play out in Greece, for example. It means that the social programs are eventually forced to be cut back to what is affordable, despite agreement of the people and the politicians that they want them continued. There is no doubt that reality always wins.
Daktoria
Posts: 497
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3/23/2013 2:05:04 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/23/2013 12:23:45 PM, RoyLatham wrote:
At 3/22/2013 7:29:02 PM, Daktoria wrote:
At 3/22/2013 3:59:08 PM, RoyLatham wrote:
I think the thread is about whether proof of a negative can satisfy the burden of proof in a debate. The answer is yes, negative proofs can meet the burden and in the example given, it does.

...but it doesn't count as a proof because we don't know that the hourglass will run out. We just know that if it runs out, the laser will stop firing.

Similarly, say we have a budget for a social program. If the budget runs out, the program will need new funding...

...but we don't know if the budget will run out yet... even though it's finite and running. That is we don't know that resources will run out until time passes.

If a finite resource is being consumed, that is proof it will run out. We know that the earth will eventually run out of oil. We don't know when, so that means the timing is debatable but not the ultimate outcome. In the case of oil, it makes a big different whether the answer is 25 years or a hundred years, so that makes for a good debate on the timing.

I don't understand your point about social programs. We know that continual high levels of deficit spending lead to bankruptcy, while the timing remains debatable. We've seen bankruptcy play out in Greece, for example. It means that the social programs are eventually forced to be cut back to what is affordable, despite agreement of the people and the politicians that they want them continued. There is no doubt that reality always wins.

Then do you believe liberals will become libertarians?