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There Is no Hope

Daktoria
Posts: 497
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3/22/2013 10:58:15 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Nobody committed takes debate seriously. All the serious people either get frustrated by the unserious people in believing it's their life purpose to go on a crusade (while ignoring their own self-respect), or they leave after realizing that their "work is done" or that there's no return on investment.

There's no reason to try.

Other than those who debate because of a lack of alternative social outlet, why do we bother?
RyuuKyuzo
Posts: 3,074
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3/22/2013 11:03:40 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
The goal of a composition isn't to reach its final cadence.
If you're reading this, you're awesome and you should feel awesome.
Smithereens
Posts: 5,512
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3/22/2013 11:47:43 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/22/2013 10:58:15 PM, Daktoria wrote:
Nobody committed takes debate seriously. All the serious people either get frustrated by the unserious people in believing it's their life purpose to go on a crusade (while ignoring their own self-respect), or they leave after realizing that their "work is done" or that there's no return on investment.

There's no reason to try.

Other than those who debate because of a lack of alternative social outlet, why do we bother?

If you think the forums are better, then you can just leave.
Music composition contest: http://www.debate.org...
imabench
Posts: 21,210
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3/23/2013 1:48:53 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/22/2013 10:58:15 PM, Daktoria wrote:
Nobody committed takes debate seriously. All the serious people either get frustrated by the unserious people in believing it's their life purpose to go on a crusade (while ignoring their own self-respect), or they leave after realizing that their "work is done" or that there's no return on investment.

Not really...

Most people on this site are teenagers ages 15 to 20 or somewhere in there, and many of those teenagers would much rather spend time using this to socialize rather then go into hard core debating because its easier to connect with people on here then with those in real life, since most people in real life are idiots.... Hence people come on here.

Apart from that though there are several other reasons why serious debaters dont debate, most of it is due to the fact that debates dont get many votes, but there are a lot of other issues as well:

1) Voting is down.

Why have a serious debate if theres a good chance it doesnt have any serious votes?

2) Serious debates dont get that many votes

I vote a lot compared to others, but the first thing I look at in a debate before deciding if I vote on it is how long the debate is. Serious debaters tend to abuse the hell out of the 8000 character limit, several have found ways to get around it. This makes debates long as hell to read, which scares away potential voters, and then youre back to issue number 1 with not having serious debates since nobody could vote on them

3) Idiots

Most serious people who start debates usually get their debates claimed by a complete newbie who has no idea what they are talking about. All serious debaters have had at least one debate get derailed by an idiot when they wanted it to be serious. Now there are ways to target smarter people, but they arent always effective because the criteria to choose from dont reflect intelligence well. People lie about their age frequently so the one that most people use is the number of completed debates, but the ranges are fixed and cant be altered which eliminates a ton of potential serious debaters, and if sometimes the people who have completed the most amount of debates arent even close to being the smartest people on the site (exhibit A would be me)

4) Why debate when you have the forums?

If you want to debate something it doesnt necessarily mean you want to make a case and try to beat someone. Half the time when people want to debate something they stick the topic in the forum, people comment, the OP counter argues, and you end up with friendly conversation over an issue that can be endless rather then bloody fistfighting you see in debates... Serious debaters tend to be classier too so they more often turn to the forums to debate rather then actual debates

5) Demographics

I rarely debate liberal debate topics on here because a large number of active voters on the site lean hard right or hard libertarian, there are few liberals who actually vote on debates a lot, and so I am a whole lot less tempted to debate political topics because I know that most voters are already against me before the debate has even started

6) We dont want to piss off our friends.

Chances are, most serious debaters on here also know and have talked to other serious debaters. This means that if two serious people are in a debate, then chances are all the serious voters on here are friends with one or both of them. This can cause people from refraining to vote on a debate because they dont want to piss off a good friend, which goes back to the first problem of not debating because of low voter turnout problems....

7) Sh*tty debates

A lot of people dont vote because when they do vote, the debates that people can vote on are usually pretty crappy.... Just now I popped over there and the latest debates you could vote on were a chuck norris joke debate, is applejack the best pony, yoga pants look better on girls then jeans, and two idiots talking about taxes. Theres little incentive for serious debaters to go out and vote, which once again leads back to the first problem of low voter turnout causing people to not debate

8) Same arguments over and over

Think about the last debate you read regarding gay marriage, abortion, taxes, the economy, etc... Chances are, there arent any argument that either side has used that you havent heard before, and if youve heard the same things over and over, youre not going to be enticed into voting for a side since you gain nothing for it.

9) People dont have the time

A lot of people on here are either in high school, college, or have a job. Debating requires a lot of time devotion too since the max you can go is only 3 days, whereas forums allow you to take all the time in the world to respond with no pressure on beating a time limit. The narrow window you have to respond to possibly 8000 characters of arguments requires time devotion a lot of people dont have, and so they choose not to engage at all

10) Starter disadvantage

Ill end on this one. Whoever has the last word usually has the upper hand on the instigator in the debate because he can respond to counter arguments one last time while the instigator doesnt have this luxury. In really close debates, having the last word can be all that influences how a person votes, which can cause some people to refrain from debating other serious debaters at all because most serious debates are very close and even, they are rarely one sided in terms of whose winning.
Kevin24018 : "He's just so mean it makes me want to ball up my fists and stamp on the ground"

7/14/16 = The Presidency Dies

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Daktoria
Posts: 497
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3/23/2013 7:32:55 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/23/2013 1:48:53 AM, imabench wrote:
At 3/22/2013 10:58:15 PM, Daktoria wrote:
Nobody committed takes debate seriously. All the serious people either get frustrated by the unserious people in believing it's their life purpose to go on a crusade (while ignoring their own self-respect), or they leave after realizing that their "work is done" or that there's no return on investment.

Not really...

Most people on this site are teenagers ages 15 to 20 or somewhere in there, and many of those teenagers would much rather spend time using this to socialize rather then go into hard core debating because its easier to connect with people on here then with those in real life, since most people in real life are idiots.... Hence people come on here.

Apart from that though there are several other reasons why serious debaters dont debate, most of it is due to the fact that debates dont get many votes, but there are a lot of other issues as well:

1) Voting is down.

Why have a serious debate if theres a good chance it doesnt have any serious votes?

2) Serious debates dont get that many votes

I vote a lot compared to others, but the first thing I look at in a debate before deciding if I vote on it is how long the debate is. Serious debaters tend to abuse the hell out of the 8000 character limit, several have found ways to get around it. This makes debates long as hell to read, which scares away potential voters, and then youre back to issue number 1 with not having serious debates since nobody could vote on them

3) Idiots

Most serious people who start debates usually get their debates claimed by a complete newbie who has no idea what they are talking about. All serious debaters have had at least one debate get derailed by an idiot when they wanted it to be serious. Now there are ways to target smarter people, but they arent always effective because the criteria to choose from dont reflect intelligence well. People lie about their age frequently so the one that most people use is the number of completed debates, but the ranges are fixed and cant be altered which eliminates a ton of potential serious debaters, and if sometimes the people who have completed the most amount of debates arent even close to being the smartest people on the site (exhibit A would be me)

4) Why debate when you have the forums?

If you want to debate something it doesnt necessarily mean you want to make a case and try to beat someone. Half the time when people want to debate something they stick the topic in the forum, people comment, the OP counter argues, and you end up with friendly conversation over an issue that can be endless rather then bloody fistfighting you see in debates... Serious debaters tend to be classier too so they more often turn to the forums to debate rather then actual debates

5) Demographics

I rarely debate liberal debate topics on here because a large number of active voters on the site lean hard right or hard libertarian, there are few liberals who actually vote on debates a lot, and so I am a whole lot less tempted to debate political topics because I know that most voters are already against me before the debate has even started

6) We dont want to piss off our friends.

Chances are, most serious debaters on here also know and have talked to other serious debaters. This means that if two serious people are in a debate, then chances are all the serious voters on here are friends with one or both of them. This can cause people from refraining to vote on a debate because they dont want to piss off a good friend, which goes back to the first problem of not debating because of low voter turnout problems....

7) Sh*tty debates

A lot of people dont vote because when they do vote, the debates that people can vote on are usually pretty crappy.... Just now I popped over there and the latest debates you could vote on were a chuck norris joke debate, is applejack the best pony, yoga pants look better on girls then jeans, and two idiots talking about taxes. Theres little incentive for serious debaters to go out and vote, which once again leads back to the first problem of low voter turnout causing people to not debate

8) Same arguments over and over

Think about the last debate you read regarding gay marriage, abortion, taxes, the economy, etc... Chances are, there arent any argument that either side has used that you havent heard before, and if youve heard the same things over and over, youre not going to be enticed into voting for a side since you gain nothing for it.

9) People dont have the time

A lot of people on here are either in high school, college, or have a job. Debating requires a lot of time devotion too since the max you can go is only 3 days, whereas forums allow you to take all the time in the world to respond with no pressure on beating a time limit. The narrow window you have to respond to possibly 8000 characters of arguments requires time devotion a lot of people dont have, and so they choose not to engage at all

10) Starter disadvantage

Ill end on this one. Whoever has the last word usually has the upper hand on the instigator in the debate because he can respond to counter arguments one last time while the instigator doesnt have this luxury. In really close debates, having the last word can be all that influences how a person votes, which can cause some people to refrain from debating other serious debaters at all because most serious debates are very close and even, they are rarely one sided in terms of whose winning.

Well yea, I'm rather shocked by how seriousness isn't appreciated more here. I debate on many forums whether political, psychological, or philosophical, and I came here expecting the formal structure of the website to facilitate serious attitudes.

It still doesn't. Wtf?

I especially agree with you on points 2, 3, 6, 7, and 10. This forum feels chaotic and spasmatic at best. Basically, those who debate most irrationally out of control win. Those who appeal to logic and necessities lose.
Magic8000
Posts: 975
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3/23/2013 11:31:38 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/23/2013 1:48:53 AM, imabench wrote:
At 3/22/2013 10:58:15 PM, Daktoria wrote:

5) Demographics

I rarely debate liberal debate topics on here because a large number of active voters on the site lean hard right or hard libertarian, there are few liberals who actually vote on debates a lot, and so I am a whole lot less tempted to debate political topics because I know that most voters are already against me before the debate has even started


LOL, yes. That's why my avatar is the way it is! The way people vote is basically, who do you agree with.
404 coherent debate topic not found. Please restart the debate with clear resolution.

"So Magic8000 believes Einstein was a proctologist who was persuaded by the Government and Hitler to fabricate the Theory of Relativity"- GWL-CPA
RoyLatham
Posts: 4,488
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3/23/2013 12:11:30 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Young people don't pursue sports for the main purpose of improving their health, they do it to have fun and get improved health as an obvious side benefit. Good debate is pursed as intellectual fun and has the obvious side benefit of improving knowledge. In the case of debate, the audience hopefully enjoys reading the debate and gets a benefit from learning what the debaters argue and the evidence they dig up.

I agree there is a problem with low voting, especially for serious debates. I put up a thread about possible remedies. It's bad enough that I'm worried about the future of DDO, but I don't see a magic solution.
lannan13
Posts: 23,034
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3/23/2013 12:19:38 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/23/2013 11:31:38 AM, Magic8000 wrote:
At 3/23/2013 1:48:53 AM, imabench wrote:
At 3/22/2013 10:58:15 PM, Daktoria wrote:

5) Demographics

I rarely debate liberal debate topics on here because a large number of active voters on the site lean hard right or hard libertarian, there are few liberals who actually vote on debates a lot, and so I am a whole lot less tempted to debate political topics because I know that most voters are already against me before the debate has even started


LOL, yes. That's why my avatar is the way it is! The way people vote is basically, who do you agree with.

Isn't it strange because the younger population tends to lean left.
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imabench
Posts: 21,210
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3/23/2013 12:20:39 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/23/2013 12:11:30 PM, RoyLatham wrote:
Young people don't pursue sports for the main purpose of improving their health, they do it to have fun and get improved health as an obvious side benefit. Good debate is pursed as intellectual fun and has the obvious side benefit of improving knowledge. In the case of debate, the audience hopefully enjoys reading the debate and gets a benefit from learning what the debaters argue and the evidence they dig up.

I agree there is a problem with low voting, especially for serious debates. I put up a thread about possible remedies. It's bad enough that I'm worried about the future of DDO, but I don't see a magic solution.

What do you think about serious debates getting their own separate voting period section? The current one right now is swamped with noob ones, but if serious debates between respected members or people with a high enough Elo were targeted to be featured in a VIP voting period section, it might entice people to check them out and leave a vote
Kevin24018 : "He's just so mean it makes me want to ball up my fists and stamp on the ground"

7/14/16 = The Presidency Dies

DDO: THE MOVIE = http://www.debate.org...
http://www.debate.org...

VP of DDO from Dec 14th 2014 to Jan 1st 2015
Daktoria
Posts: 497
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3/23/2013 2:27:47 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/23/2013 12:19:38 PM, lannan13 wrote:
At 3/23/2013 11:31:38 AM, Magic8000 wrote:
At 3/23/2013 1:48:53 AM, imabench wrote:
At 3/22/2013 10:58:15 PM, Daktoria wrote:

5) Demographics

I rarely debate liberal debate topics on here because a large number of active voters on the site lean hard right or hard libertarian, there are few liberals who actually vote on debates a lot, and so I am a whole lot less tempted to debate political topics because I know that most voters are already against me before the debate has even started


LOL, yes. That's why my avatar is the way it is! The way people vote is basically, who do you agree with.

Isn't it strange because the younger population tends to lean left.

The younger population is dumped into public education which leans left.