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There is a real problem with vote bombing

DanT
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4/2/2013 9:19:29 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
I am getting really sick of vote bombers. Reporting vote bombing doesn't help, because people rarely counters the vote bombs.

We need a team of volunteers who evaluates and counters vote bombs, or we need a report button where a vote bombed debate can be reviewed by a mod and then remove the vote deemed guilty.

I just lost a poetry contest debate because someone claimed to be countering a nonexistent vote bomb. They claimed 3 of the 4 voters were vote bombers, which was completely false. The reason they believed they were vote bombers, was because the person claiming to be countering didn't bother to read the rules of the debate, which stipulated how voters were to grade the poems with their points.

In other debates, there were vote bombers who skimmed the debate looking for something to put in their RFD without actually reading the debate. As a result of their skimming, they claimed I said something I didn't say, or claimed I dropped an argument I did not drop. These false statements in the RFD are tell tail signs of vote bombers who just skimmed the debate. It is easy to spot a skimmer, and if we set up a team to evaluate and counter reported vote bombs, they would have no problem spotting skimmers.

There's also he more obvious vote bombers, who don't give a RFD, and just vote for who they agree with. Or vote bombers who cite something unrelated to their debate in their RFD.

Bottom line, we need a volunteer team to handle this.
"Chemical weapons are no different than any other types of weapons."~Lordknukle
F-16_Fighting_Falcon
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4/2/2013 9:52:01 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
While votebombing certainly is a problem, I think that in that particular debate, pretty much everyone had agreed that your opponent did better and gave you a point or two for a good debate. Dragonb95 gave you 7 points with very little jusitification. The weight of his vote was overwhelming. Do you consider his vote a fair one?
DanT
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4/3/2013 12:03:23 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/2/2013 9:52:01 PM, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:
While votebombing certainly is a problem, I think that in that particular debate, pretty much everyone had agreed that your opponent did better and gave you a point or two for a good debate. Dragonb95 gave you 7 points with very little jusitification. The weight of his vote was overwhelming. Do you consider his vote a fair one?

According to the voting rules stipulated by Pro, his RFD justified his vote. It's only a vote bomb if he gives me points that should have gone to pro.
"Chemical weapons are no different than any other types of weapons."~Lordknukle
F-16_Fighting_Falcon
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4/3/2013 12:14:11 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/3/2013 12:03:23 AM, DanT wrote:
At 4/2/2013 9:52:01 PM, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:
While votebombing certainly is a problem, I think that in that particular debate, pretty much everyone had agreed that your opponent did better and gave you a point or two for a good debate. Dragonb95 gave you 7 points with very little jusitification. The weight of his vote was overwhelming. Do you consider his vote a fair one?

According to the voting rules stipulated by Pro, his RFD justified his vote. It's only a vote bomb if he gives me points that should have gone to pro.

No, he hasn't. He said "Loved cons poetry. Pro bored me, but con was funny, lyrical, and pretty."

According to the rules:

1. Conduct vote will be replaced with who had better word usage.
2. Spelling and Grammar will stay the same.
3. More convincing arguments will be replaced with who had better poems.
4. Most reliable sources vote will be given to whoever has the most original poems.


He did not justify his vote based on any of the categories given. He did not mention who had better word usage, spelling, grammar, or more original poetry. "Funny, lyrical, and pretty" could perhaps be used to justify who had better poems but he gave no reason for giving you any of the other points.
RyuuKyuzo
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4/3/2013 12:18:23 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/3/2013 12:03:23 AM, DanT wrote:
At 4/2/2013 9:52:01 PM, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:
While votebombing certainly is a problem, I think that in that particular debate, pretty much everyone had agreed that your opponent did better and gave you a point or two for a good debate. Dragonb95 gave you 7 points with very little jusitification. The weight of his vote was overwhelming. Do you consider his vote a fair one?

According to the voting rules stipulated by Pro, his RFD justified his vote. It's only a vote bomb if he gives me points that should have gone to pro.

He gave you 7 points with an RFD "Loved cons poetry. Pro bored me, but con was funny, lyrical, and pretty." -- since this is a poetry debate and there's no objective way to determine which is better, this isn't a completely invalid RFD, but it's really only enough to justify 3 points (arguments). At best, you can say he only 4 of his points should have been countered, but since your opponent won by 6 points, you still would have lost.

Keep in mind, it could also be argued that voting the full 7 points nullifies his votes integrity entirely. I'm just making the point that you would have lost either way. I'll grant your overarching point that VB's, especially VB's masquerading as CVB's are a big problem on DDO, but this isn't an example of that.
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DanT
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4/3/2013 10:18:07 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/3/2013 12:14:11 AM, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:
At 4/3/2013 12:03:23 AM, DanT wrote:
At 4/2/2013 9:52:01 PM, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:
While votebombing certainly is a problem, I think that in that particular debate, pretty much everyone had agreed that your opponent did better and gave you a point or two for a good debate. Dragonb95 gave you 7 points with very little jusitification. The weight of his vote was overwhelming. Do you consider his vote a fair one?

According to the voting rules stipulated by Pro, his RFD justified his vote. It's only a vote bomb if he gives me points that should have gone to pro.

No, he hasn't. He said "Loved cons poetry. Pro bored me, but con was funny, lyrical, and pretty."

According to the rules:

1. Conduct vote will be replaced with who had better word usage.
2. Spelling and Grammar will stay the same.
3. More convincing arguments will be replaced with who had better poems.
4. Most reliable sources vote will be given to whoever has the most original poems.


He did not justify his vote based on any of the categories given. He did not mention who had better word usage, spelling, grammar, or more original poetry. "Funny, lyrical, and pretty" could perhaps be used to justify who had better poems but he gave no reason for giving you any of the other points.

"Lyrical and pretty" justifies word usage and grammar. It was pretty much unanimous that my poems were more original. If pro's poems bored him he would not get best poem or best word usage.
"Chemical weapons are no different than any other types of weapons."~Lordknukle
DanT
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4/3/2013 10:26:41 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/3/2013 12:18:23 AM, RyuuKyuzo wrote:
At 4/3/2013 12:03:23 AM, DanT wrote:
At 4/2/2013 9:52:01 PM, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:
While votebombing certainly is a problem, I think that in that particular debate, pretty much everyone had agreed that your opponent did better and gave you a point or two for a good debate. Dragonb95 gave you 7 points with very little jusitification. The weight of his vote was overwhelming. Do you consider his vote a fair one?

According to the voting rules stipulated by Pro, his RFD justified his vote. It's only a vote bomb if he gives me points that should have gone to pro.

He gave you 7 points with an RFD "Loved cons poetry. Pro bored me, but con was funny, lyrical, and pretty." -- since this is a poetry debate and there's no objective way to determine which is better, this isn't a completely invalid RFD, but it's really only enough to justify 3 points (arguments). At best, you can say he only 4 of his points should have been countered, but since your opponent won by 6 points, you still would have lost.

No based on the rules of the debate it's also enough to justify word usage aka conduct, and arguably grammar. It was unanimous that my poems were more original. If grammar was countered than it would have been a tie; grammar is the only point that is arguably invalid, but it is also arguably justified by the RFD.
Keep in mind, it could also be argued that voting the full 7 points nullifies his votes integrity entirely.
The other voters could have casted more points, but chose not to. The integrity of a vote is not relative to the other votes.

I'm just making the point that you would have lost either way. I'll grant your overarching point that VB's, especially VB's masquerading as CVB's are a big problem on DDO, but this isn't an example of that.

Yes it is.
"Chemical weapons are no different than any other types of weapons."~Lordknukle
F-16_Fighting_Falcon
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4/3/2013 4:25:20 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/3/2013 10:18:07 AM, DanT wrote:

"Lyrical and pretty" justifies word usage and grammar. It was pretty much unanimous that my poems were more original. If pro's poems bored him he would not get best poem or best word usage.

You can't use unanimity as a criterion for evaluation only when it favors you. It was also pretty much unanimous that you lost. If you are going to appeal to unanimity, you might as well admit that you lost. If not, then clearly, your voter made not even a passing comment about whose poems were more original. It doesn't matter what the other voters thought. That voter did not mention anything about originality.

Would you consider it fair if a bunch of people voted against you in a hypothetical debate and then I come in and also vote against you providing no RFD whatsoever? By your logic, you should consider it fair since other people also voted against you making it obvious that you lost.

Each of the other voters justified every point they awarded (some had shitty justifications of course but the differentiating factor was that they mentioned each of the points they awarded and made a poor attempt to justify it). Your voter was the only one who provided no justification for his vote on originality.

The justification for better word usage and spelling and grammar were also not given. Rather, he called your poetry "lyrical and pretty." You guessed the meaning of those words to mean better spelling and grammar and word usage. Lyrical at a stretch could mean word usage and there is no usage of the word "pretty" that I can find that even remotely means better spelling, grammar, or word usage.

Bottomline, your voter justified 3 points and if you stretch hard, 4 points. That still leaves 3 undeserved points. I think 16k should have countered 4 (or least 3) points rather than 7. However, even if he only countered 3 points, you would have been up by 4 points. Since you lost by 6 points, the outcome remained unaffected.

As to whether a Countervote should nullify an entire votebomb or just the unjustified points is a matter of contention to which there is no easy answer. So, while I agree that votebombing is in general a problem, 16k CVB while perhaps excessive by about 3-4 points wasn't wholly unjustified nor did it affect the outcome of the debate.
imabench
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4/3/2013 6:17:50 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
http://www.debate.org...

That is the debate that DanT is whining about ^

These were the votes:
3-2
7-0 (countered the 0-7 one)
0-7
3-1
3-1
3-2

I see literally nothing wrong with the votes and the one votebomb that was on the debate was the one in DanT's favor. So why hes b*tching about rampant vote bombing is beyond me
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Pennington
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4/3/2013 6:25:25 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Hey, I got challenged and did not want to accept but I accidently hit accept. I messaged Airmax but he hasn't been on. Do you think I can get it deleted or something?
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DanT
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4/3/2013 6:44:05 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/3/2013 6:17:50 PM, imabench wrote:
http://www.debate.org...

That is the debate that DanT is whining about ^

These were the votes:
3-2
7-0 (countered the 0-7 one)
0-7
3-1
3-1
3-2

Once again, a vote's legitimacy does is not relative to the other votes. If the others awarded out full points, rather than just ignoring some voting categories, the likely outcome would be the following;

4:3
0:7
4:3
4:3
4:3
____
16:19

If he chose to give pro a point, just for the sake of giving him a point it would be as followed;

4:3
5:6
4:3
4:3
4:3
____
17:18

It was unanimous that I had more original poems, with better word usage. People tended to like Pro's poems better, specifically because they were longer and told a more detailed "story". dragonb95 was the only one bored by Pro's poems, which is why he gave me argument as well.

I see literally nothing wrong with the votes and the one votebomb that was on the debate was the one in DanT's favor. So why hes b*tching about rampant vote bombing is beyond me

7 points does not necessarily mean vote bomb. If they gave justification it's not a vote bomb. It's only a vote bomb if they gave me points that I did not earn, so I wold win. You are not obliged to give both sides points.

According to the person who countered "
Monday, April 01, 2013 @ 9:24:32 PM
Every vote except for Pennington was a VB."

Obviously the person countering had no idea what a vote bomb is.
"Chemical weapons are no different than any other types of weapons."~Lordknukle
DanT
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4/3/2013 6:45:32 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/3/2013 6:25:25 PM, Pennington wrote:
Hey, I got challenged and did not want to accept but I accidently hit accept. I messaged Airmax but he hasn't been on. Do you think I can get it deleted or something?

yes, report the debate and explain you did not mean to accept
"Chemical weapons are no different than any other types of weapons."~Lordknukle
imabench
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4/3/2013 6:57:23 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/3/2013 6:44:05 PM, DanT wrote:

Obviously the person countering had no idea what a vote bomb is.

Do you even know what a votebomb is? The guy who voted for you gave you sources and conduct for absolutely no reason, THATS what a votebomb is. 16kadams was countering it and even if he only countered those points which werent justified, you still would have lost
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DDO: THE MOVIE = http://www.debate.org...
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Controverter
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4/3/2013 6:59:07 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
What is the difference between a vote-bomb and a vote?
Women have an unfair advantage over men: If they can"t get what they want by being smart, they can get it by being dumb.
DanT
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4/3/2013 7:03:47 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/3/2013 4:25:20 PM, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:
At 4/3/2013 10:18:07 AM, DanT wrote:

"Lyrical and pretty" justifies word usage and grammar. It was pretty much unanimous that my poems were more original. If pro's poems bored him he would not get best poem or best word usage.

You can't use unanimity as a criterion for evaluation only when it favors you. It was also pretty much unanimous that you lost.

No,
Majority =/= Unanimous

Noone believed Pro had more original poems. Everyone agreed mine were more original.
If you are going to appeal to unanimity, you might as well admit that you lost. If not, then clearly, your voter made not even a passing comment about whose poems were more original. It doesn't matter what the other voters thought. That voter did not mention anything about originality.

It was implied by the source vote, which the rules state is based on originality. Since everyone agreed that I earned originality, the claim that pro earned originality is unfounded.
Would you consider it fair if a bunch of people voted against you in a hypothetical debate and then I come in and also vote against you providing no RFD whatsoever?
He did provide a RFD
By your logic, you should consider it fair since other people also voted against you making it obvious that you lost.

If the points you awarded was unanimous before your vote bomb, and the debate was an art contest, than I would be fine with it.
Each of the other voters justified every point they awarded (some had shitty justifications of course but the differentiating factor was that they mentioned each of the points they awarded and made a poor attempt to justify it). Your voter was the only one who provided no justification for his vote on originality.

So you don't think the originality vote was justified? If that is the only concern than he should have just countered 2 points rather than all 7.
The justification for better word usage and spelling and grammar were also not given. Rather, he called your poetry "lyrical and pretty." You guessed the meaning of those words to mean better spelling and grammar and word usage. Lyrical at a stretch could mean word usage and there is no usage of the word "pretty" that I can find that even remotely means better spelling, grammar, or word usage.

Both "lyrical and pretty" can be used to justify grammar.

(n) grammar (the branch of linguistics that deals with the arrangement of words in sentences and the admissible arrangement of sounds in words(and sometimes also deals with semantics))
http://wordnetweb.princeton.edu...
Bottomline, your voter justified 3 points and if you stretch hard, 4 points. That still leaves 3 undeserved points. I think 16k should have countered 4 (or least 3) points rather than 7. However, even if he only countered 3 points, you would have been up by 4 points. Since you lost by 6 points, the outcome remained unaffected.

All 7 points were justified
As to whether a Countervote should nullify an entire votebomb or just the unjustified points is a matter of contention to which there is no easy answer.
you should not dismiss justified points.
So, while I agree that votebombing is in general a problem, 16k CVB while perhaps excessive by about 3-4 points wasn't wholly unjustified nor did it affect the outcome of the debate.

16k claimed that everyone vote bombed but Pennington, he has no idea what vote-bombing is. He made no effort o adjust the counter for the other so called "vote bombs", he just arbitrarily gave pro 7 points.
"Chemical weapons are no different than any other types of weapons."~Lordknukle
Pennington
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4/3/2013 7:04:08 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/3/2013 6:45:32 PM, DanT wrote:
At 4/3/2013 6:25:25 PM, Pennington wrote:
Hey, I got challenged and did not want to accept but I accidently hit accept. I messaged Airmax but he hasn't been on. Do you think I can get it deleted or something?

yes, report the debate and explain you did not mean to accept

Thanks.
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DanT
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4/3/2013 7:04:22 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/3/2013 6:59:07 PM, Controverter wrote:
What is the difference between a vote-bomb and a vote?

A vote bomb awards unearned points to who ever the person wants to win.
"Chemical weapons are no different than any other types of weapons."~Lordknukle
DanT
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4/3/2013 7:06:47 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/3/2013 6:57:23 PM, imabench wrote:
At 4/3/2013 6:44:05 PM, DanT wrote:

Obviously the person countering had no idea what a vote bomb is.

Do you even know what a votebomb is? The guy who voted for you gave you sources and conduct for absolutely no reason, THATS what a votebomb is. 16kadams was countering it and even if he only countered those points which werent justified, you still would have lost

It was unanimous that I've earned sources aka originality, and conduct aka word usage. The word usage was justified by his RFD.
"Chemical weapons are no different than any other types of weapons."~Lordknukle
Pennington
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4/3/2013 7:09:45 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
I also volunteer for this. I recently voted against DanT and I think rightly so. I voted in his poem debate. He did do good and I think I have voted for him in another debate. I agree with him that VB's do occur and should be handled better. The how and when is not that easy on the other hand.
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F-16_Fighting_Falcon
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4/3/2013 7:49:52 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
DanT, there were 6 total votes on your debate. I am listing them out here in the order in which they were casted, least recent vote first.

Vote key:

1. Conduct vote will be replaced with who had better word usage.
2. Spelling and Grammar will stay the same.
3. More convincing arguments will be replaced with who had better poems.
4. Most reliable sources vote will be given to whoever has the most original poems.

1) MassiveDump: Crypto 3:2 DanT
Crypto wrote better poems, but that clap think was facking hilarious.

2) 1HistoryGenius: Crypto 3:1 DanT
Pro wrote better poems, but Con should get a point for doing very well.

3) Penington: Crypto 3:1 DanT
I thought both provided good poems. The reason I give Pro the points for arguments is because of the length in his poems. Con had much shorter poems. Though they were quick and sweet they do not give the story that Pros has. Con did good and deserves a point so I give him Conduct.

4) Dragonb95: Crypto 0:7 DanT
Loved cons poetry. Pro bored me, but con was funny, lyrical, and pretty.

5) 16kadams: Crypto 7:0 DanT
CVB

6) Contra: Crypto 3:1 DanT
I thought Pro's arguments were less original, yet I thought the poetry was better. Sorry Con.

Analysis:

There were 3 votes before dragonb95's vote which were Massive, history, penn.

From massive's vote, we guage the following things:
1) Crypto wrote better poems.
2) DanT was funnier.

He did not mention originality of the poem although you could stretch and say humor = originality. Let's say I grant you that stretch.

The second vote was History. From this vote, we learn:
1) Crypto wrote better poems.
2) DanT should get a point for "doing so well."

The point that was awarded was the conduct point which should originally have been awarded for better word usage. However, history made no mention of better word usage. He just gave you a point. Regardless of whether it was a point for a good contest or for word usage, it was not a point for originality.

The third vote was Penington's. From this we learned:
1) Crypto's were longer and told a story which DanT didn't.
2) DanT deserves a point for doing good and so Pen awards conduct.

Clearly, there has been no mention originality nor did Penn give a vote in the originality category.

These are the three votes before your guy's votebomb. Out of these 3 votes, NONE of them mentioned originality, and only 1 of them gave the originality vote (sources vote) and the other two just gave the conduct vote. How then do you say that originality was unanimous? It was anything but.

Out of the total of 5 votes (excluding 16kadams) who didn't actually attempt a vote on the debate, 1 person mentioned that you were original, and 1 other person gave you the originality vote for humor.

20% is not unanimity, and neither is 40%. How do you conclude based on these votes that it was unanimous that you were original?

You also claim that it was unanimous that you had better word usage. Let's go through each of the people who gave you the conduct point.
- Contra gave you the orginality points but not better usage.
- Penn made it abundantly clear why he gave you the conduct point. He gave it to you because "Con did good and deserves a point so I give him Conduct." This is not a point for better word usage. He merely thought it was competitive and you deserved a point.
- History said "Pro wrote better poems, but Con should get a point for doing very well." This RFD mirrors penn's and makes no mention of word usage.
- Massivedump did not give you a point for word usage.

Overall, 0% of the votes thought you had better usage. Explain to me again how this is unanimity?

Your definition of grammar is nowhere near the word "pretty." It is a long stretch.
Pennington
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4/3/2013 8:11:36 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
I think a debater should go after the vote in a manner that leaves no doubt and VB will be less of a problem, at least to the more experienced regulars. It also makes it easier for the even minded regulars to see clearly who won. When a debate is close, then anyone can have a interpretation of who wins. Only by blowing out your opponent can you guarantee victory or have right when your voted against. So make every debate your strongest.
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DanT
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4/3/2013 8:57:31 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/3/2013 7:49:52 PM, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:
DanT, there were 6 total votes on your debate. I am listing them out here in the order in which they were casted, least recent vote first.

20% is not unanimity, and neither is 40%. How do you conclude based on these votes that it was unanimous that you were original?


It's not 20%, if it was 20% that would mean Pro would get the other 10%. You cannot count uncasted votes against me.

Here is the vote count per category before dragonb95 ;
Pro:Con

Word Usage/Conduct
0:2
Spelling and Grammar
0:0
Better Poems/Argument
3:0
Originality/Sources
0:1

Here is the total vote count per category excluding dragonb95;
Pro:Con

Word Usage/Conduct
0:2
Spelling and Grammar
0:0
Better Poems/Argument
4:0
Originality/Sources
0:2

As you can see, originality and word usage was unanimous.
penn's and makes no mention of word usage.
- Massivedump did not give you a point for word usage.

Overall, 0% of the votes thought you had better usage. Explain to me again how this is unanimity?

So because they did not specifically use the phrase "word usage", you think no-one thought I had better word usage?

Your definition of grammar is nowhere near the word "pretty." It is a long stretch.

So you think the arrangement of words and the arrangement of sounds in words have no bearing on whether or not a poem sounds "pretty"?

Here is my analysis

MassiveDump gave me originality
RFD: "that clap think was facking hilarious."

In other words, although he liked Pro's poems best, my limerick made him laugh.

(adj) hilarious (marked by or causing boisterous merriment or convulsive laughter)
http://wordnetweb.princeton.edu...

1Historygenius gave me word usage
RFD: "Con should get a point for doing very well."

In other words, although he liked Pro's poems best, he also found my poems intensely pleasing.

(adv) very (used as intensifiers)
http://wordnetweb.princeton.edu...
(adj) good (agreeable or pleasing)
http://wordnetweb.princeton.edu...

Pennington gave me word usage
RFD: "they were quick and sweet... Con did good and deserves a point so I give him Conduct."

In other words, my poems were pleasing to the ear.

(adj) sweet (pleasing to the ear)
http://wordnetweb.princeton.edu...

Contra gave me originality
RFD: I thought Pro's arguments were less original

This is pretty straight forward
"Chemical weapons are no different than any other types of weapons."~Lordknukle
Pennington
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4/3/2013 9:09:11 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/3/2013 8:57:31 PM, DanT wrote:

Here is my analysis

MassiveDump gave me originality
RFD: "that clap think was facking hilarious."

In other words, although he liked Pro's poems best, my limerick made him laugh.

(adj) hilarious (marked by or causing boisterous merriment or convulsive laughter)
http://wordnetweb.princeton.edu...

1Historygenius gave me word usage
RFD: "Con should get a point for doing very well."

In other words, although he liked Pro's poems best, he also found my poems intensely pleasing.

(adv) very (used as intensifiers)
http://wordnetweb.princeton.edu...
(adj) good (agreeable or pleasing)
http://wordnetweb.princeton.edu...

Pennington gave me word usage
RFD: "they were quick and sweet... Con did good and deserves a point so I give him Conduct."

In other words, my poems were pleasing to the ear.

(adj) sweet (pleasing to the ear)
http://wordnetweb.princeton.edu...

Contra gave me originality
RFD: I thought Pro's arguments were less original

This is pretty straight forward

I agree.
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F-16_Fighting_Falcon
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4/3/2013 9:19:10 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
DanT, you are making the mistake of counting all the conduct votes in your favor as evidence of you having better word usage. That isn't true as some of the votes were provided based not on word usage but simply based on the fact that you put up a good fight. They found a random point to give to you to reflect the closeness of the debate. This is similar to giving someone conduct for conceding. It doesn't mean that they had better conduct; just that voters saw it as good sportsmanship. You are taking the literal meaning of the vote key when no one has said that that is their reason for voting. In fact, when people have given you a point simply for a good fight, you have checked which point they have given you and what those points stand for and erroneously stating that you deserved those points based on the category that was given to you.
F-16_Fighting_Falcon
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4/3/2013 9:27:45 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Forgot to mention this:

Originality: 20% for you. 80% neutral, 0% for Con.

Word Usage: 0% for you. 100% neutral, 0% for Con.

These don't meet the definition of unanimity. It is huge stretch to believe that which pretty much sums up your entire analysis.
DanT
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4/3/2013 10:26:29 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/3/2013 9:27:45 PM, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:
Forgot to mention this:

Originality: 20% for you. 80% neutral, 0% for Con.

It's not 20% Before Dragon voted it was 67% (2/3) me, and 33% (1/3) neutral. Overall, excluding Dragon's vote, it was 50% (2/4) me, and 50% (2/4) neutral.
67% > 0%, and 50% > 0%
Word Usage: 0% for you. 100% neutral, 0% for Con.

Its not 100% neutral. Before Dragon voted it was 33% (1/3) me, and 67% (2/3) neutral. Overall, excluding Dragon's vote, it was 50% (2/4) me, and 50% (2/4) neutral.
33% > 0%, and 50% > 0%
your math skills are deplorable
These don't meet the definition of unanimity. It is huge stretch to believe that which pretty much sums up your entire analysis.

You are assuming that those points were tied, rather than the voters choosing not to award points. There has been times when my opponent cited no sources, and I cited .edu and .gov sources, yet nobody voted on sources. You cannot assume that a neutral vote was cast because of an equal quality in that field. All we can say for sure with this record was that I received points for originality and word usage and my opponent did not.

If you remove neutrality, due to it's uncertainty, I received 100% of the vote in both categories.
"Chemical weapons are no different than any other types of weapons."~Lordknukle
F-16_Fighting_Falcon
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4/3/2013 10:37:21 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
You say that you cited .edu and .gov sources and despite no one giving you sources points, you assume that those points should be given to you?

No offense but in the words of Kevin O'Leary from Shark Tank:

"You crazy chicken!"

You are supposed to convince people to vote in your favor, not do a self-evaluation and assume that you did better in a category merely because you think so.

You say that before Dragon voted, originality was 67% you and 33% neutral. How did you arrive at this conclusion? There were 3 votes before dragon. Only 1 awarded you points for originality and he never mentioned originality so you are stretching. If we grant your stretching, it becomes 33%. If we don't, it is 0%. How did you arrive at the 66.7% ratio? Now you are just fabricating numbers.

You say before Dragon's vote, word usage was 33% you. How do you reach this conclusion? None of the 3 voters who voted mentioned word usage. 1 did not give you the conduct point at all. 2 gave you the conduct point and explicitly mentioned the reasons for giving you the conduct point and those reasons were not word usage.
Smithereens
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4/3/2013 11:20:51 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/2/2013 9:19:29 PM, DanT wrote:
I am getting really sick of vote bombers. Reporting vote bombing doesn't help, because people rarely counters the vote bombs.

We need a team of volunteers who evaluates and counters vote bombs, or we need a report button where a vote bombed debate can be reviewed by a mod and then remove the vote deemed guilty.

I just lost a poetry contest debate because someone claimed to be countering a nonexistent vote bomb. They claimed 3 of the 4 voters were vote bombers, which was completely false. The reason they believed they were vote bombers, was because the person claiming to be countering didn't bother to read the rules of the debate, which stipulated how voters were to grade the poems with their points.

In other debates, there were vote bombers who skimmed the debate looking for something to put in their RFD without actually reading the debate. As a result of their skimming, they claimed I said something I didn't say, or claimed I dropped an argument I did not drop. These false statements in the RFD are tell tail signs of vote bombers who just skimmed the debate. It is easy to spot a skimmer, and if we set up a team to evaluate and counter reported vote bombs, they would have no problem spotting skimmers.

There's also he more obvious vote bombers, who don't give a RFD, and just vote for who they agree with. Or vote bombers who cite something unrelated to their debate in their RFD.

Bottom line, we need a volunteer team to handle this.

Attempts at this have already been made, they just simply fall apart.
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DanT
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4/4/2013 12:07:02 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/3/2013 10:37:21 PM, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:
You say that you cited .edu and .gov sources and despite no one giving you sources points, you assume that those points should be given to you?

No offense but in the words of Kevin O'Leary from Shark Tank:

"You crazy chicken!"

I also stated that my opponent in that debate had 0 sources. So not only did I have better quality sources but I had a greater quantity of sources.
You are supposed to convince people to vote in your favor, not do a self-evaluation and assume that you did better in a category merely because you think so.

Well when I provide credible sources, and my opponent had 0 sources, it's kind of obvious. When I asked why sources was tied, one of the voters stated "I never vote on sources".
You say that before Dragon voted, originality was 67% you and 33% neutral. How did you arrive at this conclusion? There were 3 votes before dragon. Only 1 awarded you points for originality and he never mentioned originality so you are stretching. If we grant your stretching, it becomes 33%. If we don't, it is 0%. How did you arrive at the 66.7% ratio? Now you are just fabricating numbers.

You say before Dragon's vote, word usage was 33% you. How do you reach this conclusion? None of the 3 voters who voted mentioned word usage. 1 did not give you the conduct point at all. 2 gave you the conduct point and explicitly mentioned the reasons for giving you the conduct point and those reasons were not word usage.

Sorry that was the opposite, 33% (1/3) originality/sources and 67% (2/3) word usage/conduct. I confused the conduct for originality.
"Chemical weapons are no different than any other types of weapons."~Lordknukle
F-16_Fighting_Falcon
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4/4/2013 12:20:55 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
1) If voters never vote on sources, then the sources are for all practical purposes tied. You cannot make a subjective judgment about your sources in the context of evaluating the legitimacy of votes. You don't decide how many points you should receive because you are not an impartial observer.

2) Quantity of sources are irrelevant. The sources vote is not given because one person had more sources. If one person was able to counter and refute his opponent's sourced arguments without sources, there is no reason to give the sources point at all. The sources point asks whose sources were more reliable. In mathematical notation it would read as "who had (more reliable) sources," not who had more (reliable sources). As to quality, it is your subjective judgment which will be biased in your favor since you were an active participant in the debate not an impartial observer.

3) Okay, if we grant your stretching that humor = originality, we have 33% for originality against 66% neutral. How is this unanimous agreement that you had more original poems?

4) For word usage, None of the 2 voters who voted conduct mentioned word usage. They explicitly mentioned the reasons for giving you the conduct point and those reasons were not word usage. Why do you assume it to be such when they have mentioned a different reason for giving you the conduct point? They merely needed a point to give to you and they gave it. It doesn't mean that the particular category they gave was won by you.