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Voting

Pennington
Posts: 1,286
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4/14/2013 3:08:25 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
As I can see, there are many members who are on here constantly. Some seem never to leave. I wonder why we ever have debates that are not voted on or are tied. I do not see why we should have any debates that are left vote bombed. I see a lot of people talking about improving this site and then simple important things like this continue. The DDO/Juggle staff can not do much more than they have. It is upon the members to make this problem end. You go find debates that are not voted on, that are tied, that needs a Vote Bomb corrected. This is our duty. If you really want to see this site improve its creditability for debates and voting procedures, then do it. Your time is not so precious that you can contribute more to a site you spend most of your time on. Is this site mostly a forum? No, it is called Debate.Org. We host debates against people all over the world. This is site is the only one to offer such debates and ways for people to throw ideas around or to test their skill. We all need all of your help.
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F-16_Fighting_Falcon
Posts: 18,324
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4/14/2013 3:37:28 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
I classify votes into 3 levels:

Level 1: Votebombs
Gives more than just the points for arguments without justifying those points.
Provides little or no reason for decision.
Generally biased towards the position or person the votebomber agrees with.

Level 2: Poor Votes (There are two separate sub-categories here)

2a) Rationalized, biased votes
Voters choose the side they want to vote for before they read the debate. This is usually the side that they agree with. They convince themselves that that side has won. While reading the debate, they look for excuses as to why they must vote for that side. They look for keywords and underlying themes that the debater advocating their side has brought forth. Then they summarize the arguments their man has made and create an RFD based on those points. Usually only 3 points are given so as to appear unbiased.

2b) Skimmed votes
Voters skim the debate and miss points that are really important in favor of voting on unimportant points. Often don't understand the concepts brought forth in the debate and usually vote on the simplest and most graphic concept after a cursory reading. These votes are not necessarily biased but people often make the wrong call if they are the first to vote. If their vote comes later, they usually vote for the side that is winning.

Level 3) Good votes
Takes notes while reading the debate to keep track of major points.
Compares the impact of points and decide which to weigh higher. Gives clear reasons for weighing some impacts higher than others.
Compares contrasting arguments on various subpoints and thoroughly evaluate the arguments which led to the winner.
May potentially agree with one side more than the other before the debate starts, but after vigorous note-taking and evaluation, barely even remembers who he agrees with as the argument comparison takes precedence.
Either provides a short RFD which captures the essence of the debate or copy-pastes all of their notes for debaters to see.

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Most voters are in level 2. There are exceptional voters that are in level 3 but the majority fall into either 2a or 2b with 2a being the most annoying. I've made posts before about how easy it is to rationalize votes.

@ Penn, when was the last time you voted against you side on a close debate?
Pennington
Posts: 1,286
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4/14/2013 5:58:37 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/14/2013 3:37:28 PM, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:
I classify votes into 3 levels:

Level 1: Votebombs
Gives more than just the points for arguments without justifying those points.
Provides little or no reason for decision.
Generally biased towards the position or person the votebomber agrees with.

Level 2: Poor Votes (There are two separate sub-categories here)

2a) Rationalized, biased votes
Voters choose the side they want to vote for before they read the debate. This is usually the side that they agree with. They convince themselves that that side has won. While reading the debate, they look for excuses as to why they must vote for that side. They look for keywords and underlying themes that the debater advocating their side has brought forth. Then they summarize the arguments their man has made and create an RFD based on those points. Usually only 3 points are given so as to appear unbiased.

2b) Skimmed votes
Voters skim the debate and miss points that are really important in favor of voting on unimportant points. Often don't understand the concepts brought forth in the debate and usually vote on the simplest and most graphic concept after a cursory reading. These votes are not necessarily biased but people often make the wrong call if they are the first to vote. If their vote comes later, they usually vote for the side that is winning.

Level 3) Good votes
Takes notes while reading the debate to keep track of major points.
Compares the impact of points and decide which to weigh higher. Gives clear reasons for weighing some impacts higher than others.
Compares contrasting arguments on various subpoints and thoroughly evaluate the arguments which led to the winner.
May potentially agree with one side more than the other before the debate starts, but after vigorous note-taking and evaluation, barely even remembers who he agrees with as the argument comparison takes precedence.
Either provides a short RFD which captures the essence of the debate or copy-pastes all of their notes for debaters to see.

-----------------
Most voters are in level 2. There are exceptional voters that are in level 3 but the majority fall into either 2a or 2b with 2a being the most annoying. I've made posts before about how easy it is to rationalize votes.

@ Penn, when was the last time you voted against you side on a close debate?:

Actually quite a few times.
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Pennington
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4/14/2013 6:01:09 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
I am not biased at all. The real trick is the wording of a debate. Ive seen theist word resolutions wrong and lost because of it. Ive seen atheist simply out perform theist and win. I vote on skill, points, sources, and structure, regardless of who's, who.
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Pennington
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4/14/2013 6:19:32 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/14/2013 6:06:27 PM, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:
At 4/14/2013 5:58:37 PM, Pennington wrote:

Actually quite a few times.

Can you give 2 examples?

http://www.debate.org...
http://www.debate.org...
http://www.debate.org...

These three about theist and atheist material or subject but theres a few others I was for that I had to vote against because FF or poor debating skills. But it is true is a theist offers the points needed I will vote for them but if they do not I will not. Same so for atheist. Biased behavior is not needed in debates. I have actually suggested to one of my opponents to reported a VB for me.
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F-16_Fighting_Falcon
Posts: 18,324
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4/14/2013 6:34:03 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/14/2013 6:19:32 PM, Pennington wrote:
At 4/14/2013 6:06:27 PM, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:
At 4/14/2013 5:58:37 PM, Pennington wrote:

Actually quite a few times.

Can you give 2 examples?

http://www.debate.org...

This wasn't a real debate but rather a one-round debate that wasn't even close. Pro made claims in Round 1 which Con cleanly rebutted.

http://www.debate.org...

This was one of Qopel's infamous debates where the contender "broke" rules. You never actually evaluated the debate.

http://www.debate.org...

Okay, this is one. At least that is better than a lot of people who never vote against their side.
Pennington
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4/14/2013 6:53:11 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/14/2013 6:34:03 PM, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:
Nevertheless, I assume you are in league with the idea that members ourselves improve all the voting here?
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F-16_Fighting_Falcon
Posts: 18,324
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4/14/2013 7:01:57 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/14/2013 3:08:25 PM, Pennington wrote:
You go find debates that are not voted on, that are tied, that needs a Vote Bomb corrected. This is our duty.

Well, I think it is our duty to learn how to vote in the first place. That takes higher precedence. If is more annoying to debaters who worked hard on debates to see 2a and 2b type votes than it is to not see votes at all or see obvious votebombs which can easily be rectified.
Pennington
Posts: 1,286
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4/14/2013 7:15:02 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/14/2013 7:01:57 PM, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:
At 4/14/2013 3:08:25 PM, Pennington wrote:
You go find debates that are not voted on, that are tied, that needs a Vote Bomb corrected. This is our duty.

Well, I think it is our duty to learn how to vote in the first place. That takes higher precedence. If is more annoying to debaters who worked hard on debates to see 2a and 2b type votes than it is to not see votes at all or see obvious votebombs which can easily be rectified.:

Valid points, nevertheless we need to get voters voting and by practice or criticism can they improve.
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TUF
Posts: 21,297
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4/14/2013 10:47:35 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
So I think F-16 is just saying we need more voters who vote well.
"I've got to go and grab a shirt" ~ Airmax1227