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Voting Elitism

Ragnar
Posts: 1,658
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4/23/2013 12:21:29 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
While I admit to being a flawed voter (been here less than a month), I've noticed some really odd standards some people want for any votes to be cast, yet I never see these written into round 1 debate guidelines.

Is this a growing trend, or is it static?

If it's a regular thing, maybe when creating debates people should be able to use a setting to raise the minimum debates needed to vote to something higher than 3?

Other than those questions, anyone care to share some odd requests they've gotten in regards to votes they placed? (please exclude names)
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Noumena
Posts: 6,047
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4/23/2013 1:16:21 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Voting standards have been on the rise since I joined over two years ago. That was just a little after you got the option to require that people post a reason for why they voted the way they did. Before that it was even anonymous and people generally gave themselves 7 points in their debates.

Now the problem is with people posting poor reasons for their votes. Most votebombers just post something along the lines of "Con won" or "I agree with Pro" but most regular voters just unconsciously (or otherwise) go with their already-held opinion with a post hoc justification of why it was argued for better in the debate.

The most commonly proposed solution is raising voting standards but as anyone who's put a lot of effort into a high quality debate can tell you, voting is already sparse. Most votes just go towards obvious wins or forfeits. I see the solution as being to organize "good" voters to vote more while simultaneously continuing to point out blatant votebombs. That way at least you can mitigate the effects even if you can't completely wipe them out.

But more to yer point, most debaters don't post restrictions on how to vote since (a) it just makes them look uptight and (b) no one is obliged to follow through with their stipulations. What is or what is not a "good" vote continuously evolves (see the days when RFD's weren't even an option) without the use of officially designated stipulations.
: At 5/13/2014 7:05:20 PM, Crescendo wrote:
: The difference is that the gay movement is currently pushing their will on Churches, as shown in the link to gay marriage in Denmark. Meanwhile, the Inquisition ended several centuries ago.
YYW
Posts: 36,426
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4/23/2013 2:52:23 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/23/2013 1:16:21 PM, Noumena wrote:
Voting standards have been on the rise since I joined over two years ago. That was just a little after you got the option to require that people post a reason for why they voted the way they did. Before that it was even anonymous and people generally gave themselves 7 points in their debates.

Now the problem is with people posting poor reasons for their votes. Most votebombers just post something along the lines of "Con won" or "I agree with Pro" but most regular voters just unconsciously (or otherwise) go with their already-held opinion with a post hoc justification of why it was argued for better in the debate.

I have done this, as seen here:

http://www.debate.org...

And I think it was an appropriate response. That is not to say that it is appropriate to to do this in most cases or even more than a few, but periodically there are some debates so ostentatious that it's proper to punish one of the debaters -like Anti-Athiest (who, if I thought I would make any head way, like to have banned from this site permanently).

The most commonly proposed solution is raising voting standards but as anyone who's put a lot of effort into a high quality debate can tell you, voting is already sparse. Most votes just go towards obvious wins or forfeits. I see the solution as being to organize "good" voters to vote more while simultaneously continuing to point out blatant votebombs. That way at least you can mitigate the effects even if you can't completely wipe them out.

But more to yer point, most debaters don't post restrictions on how to vote since (a) it just makes them look uptight and (b) no one is obliged to follow through with their stipulations. What is or what is not a "good" vote continuously evolves (see the days when RFD's weren't even an option) without the use of officially designated stipulations.

I think that there are three principle reasons why voters don't vote:

(1) For those who would be otherwise be motivated to vote, people who put a lot of thought into their RFD's get blowback from one or both of the debaters who challenge the integrity/impartiality/reasoning of a vote. I did this to F-16 when I joined this site, and I continue to feel sorry for doing so.

(2) Many people can't be bothered to care. (I think this is the most common reason.)

(3) The politics of voting: people fear that by judging others, people will later face retribution from someone to whom they gave the loss.

Just my thoughts...
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Ragnar
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4/23/2013 6:23:22 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/23/2013 2:52:23 PM, YYW wrote:
I think that there are three principle reasons why voters don't vote:

(1) For those who would be otherwise be motivated to vote, people who put a lot of thought into their RFD's get blowback from one or both of the debaters who challenge the integrity/impartiality/reasoning of a vote.

I have to agree with this. I think that is the heart of the issue I am seeing.
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larztheloser
Posts: 857
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4/23/2013 10:59:13 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/23/2013 6:23:22 PM, Ragnar wrote:
At 4/23/2013 2:52:23 PM, YYW wrote:
I think that there are three principle reasons why voters don't vote:

(1) For those who would be otherwise be motivated to vote, people who put a lot of thought into their RFD's get blowback from one or both of the debaters who challenge the integrity/impartiality/reasoning of a vote.

I have to agree with this. I think that is the heart of the issue I am seeing.

Strange. I don't think I've ever had this problem personally.

One of the reasons why voting is harder than debating is that you actually need to convince somebody that they lost, in fewer characters than a debate round. I totally sympathize with the difficulties of this, but even world-class judges get this wrong in tournaments sometimes (and sometimes to humorous effect).
Pennington
Posts: 1,286
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4/23/2013 11:07:53 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/23/2013 10:59:13 PM, larztheloser wrote:
At 4/23/2013 6:23:22 PM, Ragnar wrote:
At 4/23/2013 2:52:23 PM, YYW wrote:
I think that there are three principle reasons why voters don't vote:

(1) For those who would be otherwise be motivated to vote, people who put a lot of thought into their RFD's get blowback from one or both of the debaters who challenge the integrity/impartiality/reasoning of a vote.

I have to agree with this. I think that is the heart of the issue I am seeing.

Strange. I don't think I've ever had this problem personally.

One of the reasons why voting is harder than debating is that you actually need to convince somebody that they lost, in fewer characters than a debate round. I totally sympathize with the difficulties of this, but even world-class judges get this wrong in tournaments sometimes (and sometimes to humorous effect).

I agree. All we can do is have personal integrity. It is even harder to do that when you have biased votes from both sides. Really all you can do is look out for your belief and support it when it deserves it. Consider the votes and if they are biased, vote fairly for both debaters. If one is getting mistreated then protect them even if it goes against the other. Fairness above belief should precede.
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Ragnar
Posts: 1,658
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4/24/2013 4:05:31 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
One that I actually respected was a request by the person I voted in favor of, to remove my source vote from them as they did not feel it was earned. However I've had some interesting complaints about voting for the other side, or not favoring someone enough.
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And please disable Smart-Quotes: https://goo.gl...
Noumena
Posts: 6,047
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4/24/2013 11:02:56 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/24/2013 4:05:31 AM, Ragnar wrote:
One that I actually respected was a request by the person I voted in favor of, to remove my source vote from them as they did not feel it was earned. However I've had some interesting complaints about voting for the other side, or not favoring someone enough.

There's a publicity effect which could go into that. People who complain about votes against them can be seen as cry-babies while people who complain about votes for them are seen as possessing integrity or something. I've actually been heavily reluctant to contest a vote against me just because of that, even when I see heavy flaws in a vote. Unless it's a very obvious votebomb I usually won't say anything.
: At 5/13/2014 7:05:20 PM, Crescendo wrote:
: The difference is that the gay movement is currently pushing their will on Churches, as shown in the link to gay marriage in Denmark. Meanwhile, the Inquisition ended several centuries ago.