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Debate Coaching

wiploc
Posts: 1,485
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4/26/2013 12:17:36 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
Anjou accepted one of my offers to coach people so they debate better. Others can feel free to participate in one role or the other.

Anjou, would you like to work on your last topic (Gay Marriage) or start with your next topic (Assault Weapons Ban)?
F-16_Fighting_Falcon
Posts: 18,324
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4/26/2013 12:34:15 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
This seems like a fine idea. Would you do it via PM? Give more details.

As for my interest, it really depends on who else joins. The people are far more important in determining how well it will run. If someone like Raisor, YYW, or bluesteel join as coaches, I'd love to be one of the people who would join as a - for lack of a better word - student.

If it is mostly new members who are very active on the site and are here to stay, I'd happy to coach them this summer (finals keep me busy at the moment).

It all depends on who else signs up.
Controverter
Posts: 58
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4/26/2013 12:35:33 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/26/2013 12:17:36 AM, wiploc wrote:
Anjou accepted one of my offers to coach people so they debate better. Others can feel free to participate in one role or the other.

Anjou, would you like to work on your last topic (Gay Marriage) or start with your next topic (Assault Weapons Ban)?

In over one year of this site you only have done 28 debates.

xD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Women have an unfair advantage over men: If they can"t get what they want by being smart, they can get it by being dumb.
F-16_Fighting_Falcon
Posts: 18,324
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4/26/2013 12:40:19 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/26/2013 12:35:33 AM, Controverter wrote:
At 4/26/2013 12:17:36 AM, wiploc wrote:
Anjou accepted one of my offers to coach people so they debate better. Others can feel free to participate in one role or the other.

Anjou, would you like to work on your last topic (Gay Marriage) or start with your next topic (Assault Weapons Ban)?

In over one year of this site you only have done 28 debates.

xD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Quality over quantity.
wiploc
Posts: 1,485
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4/26/2013 2:32:54 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/26/2013 12:35:33 AM, Controverter wrote:
In over one year of this site you only have done 28 debates.

Resolved: It is possible to have something to offer without having done 29 debates.
Anjou
Posts: 1
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4/26/2013 10:34:28 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
I'd like to work on my Assault Weapons Ban. I see how I kind of meandered away fro the actual topic and think I can correct that in my coming debate.
"Speak soft words, you may have to end up eating them."
wiploc
Posts: 1,485
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4/26/2013 12:09:19 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/26/2013 12:34:15 AM, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:
This seems like a fine idea. Would you do it via PM?

I'd do it right here.

Give more details.

Some people aren't clear. Or they don't realize that they haven't stated their actual claim. Or they state a claim, and maybe restate it, but don't realize that isn't justifying it, isn't giving us reason to believe it. I have offered to help come of these people achieve clarity.

I believe that I can help people simply and clarify messages that they are having trouble articulating.

I can suggest rules like
Clarity first:
Don't Bury the Lead:
Get Cogent:
Make Your Entire Case in Your First Post:
Be the Nice One:
Have Both Intellectual and Emotional Components to Your Argument:

(I won't say which of those I think qopel could have benefited from.)

If somebody wants to argue for something, but would like to run the argument past us for review before issuing a debate challenge, that will be a good use of this thread.
wiploc
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4/26/2013 12:22:04 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
I'm good at grammar too (which means I am confused at a higher level than most people).

But most of what I intend to do here is take awkward or fuzzy sentences or paragraphs, and show how they can be made clear and persuasive.

For instance, where Anjou wrote, "Firstly, I argue that it is unconstitutional to deny two people who love each other the right to be married IF AND ONLY IF the ramifications include a pastor or priest who is willing to unite the two to marriage," I might write, "Gays have a right to get married, but that doesn't mean they can force anti-gay preachers to perform the ceremony."
wiploc
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4/26/2013 12:23:48 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/26/2013 11:22:13 AM, FrackJack wrote:
I could use a atheist teacher.

Is there an argument you're having problems with? I think I can dispose of any theist argument that doesn't involve polonium halos.
wiploc
Posts: 1,485
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4/26/2013 12:44:16 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/26/2013 12:23:48 PM, wiploc wrote:
At 4/26/2013 11:22:13 AM, FrackJack wrote:
I could use a atheist teacher.

Is there an argument you're having problems with? I think I can dispose of any theist argument that doesn't involve polonium halos.

Rules:

1. Never throw logic at their miracles; rather, throw miracles at their logic.

2. Forget about persuading your opponent. Assume there is an undecided person in the audience, a person who has always been told that atheists are corrupt, evil, dishonest, and have bad motives. Direct your attention to this reader. Your goal isn't to persuade her today, but rather to plant the seed that may grow when she is ready. You do this by (a) seeming calm, friendly, rational, like someone she'd want to have a beer with, and (b) having intelligent defensible positions. She doesn't have to be persuaded by those positions, but only has to see that you hold non-stupid opinions in good faith.

3. Watch for the equivocation. Point it out to them. Most of them aren't even aware that they are contradicting themselves.

4. Don't leave out the emotional element. They aren't religious for logical reasons, so they won't give it up for logical reasons. Therefore, while you're ostensibly discussing the cosmological argument, you have to help them realize their religion is ugly, that we'd be better off if it weren't true, that no decent person can wish for Hellfire to be true.
lannan13
Posts: 23,022
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4/26/2013 12:46:06 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Wait in your first post (assuming there's 5 round) don't you not want to show all your cards?
-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-Lannan13'S SIGNATURE-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-

If the sky's the limit then why do we have footprints on the Moon? I'm shooting my aspirations for the stars.

"If you are going through hell, keep going." "Sir Winston Churchill

"No one can make you feel inferior without your consent." "Eleanor Roosevelt

Topics I want to debate. (http://tinyurl.com...)
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FrackJack
Posts: 1,392
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4/26/2013 2:05:24 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/26/2013 12:23:48 PM, wiploc wrote:
At 4/26/2013 11:22:13 AM, FrackJack wrote:
I could use a atheist teacher.

Is there an argument you're having problems with? I think I can dispose of any theist argument that doesn't involve polonium halos.

The Ontological argument really. I just want a general teacher
: At 8/8/2013 6:15:09 PM, AnDoctuir wrote:
: The idiots are rebelling.

http://i.imgur.com...
Raisor
Posts: 4,459
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4/26/2013 2:47:30 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/26/2013 12:46:06 PM, lannan13 wrote:
Wait in your first post (assuming there's 5 round) don't you not want to show all your cards?

You want to at least get the foundations for any argument you think you will win established in the first round.

There are times when it is smart to not put "A"arguments in your frontline but this is the exception and honestly would not worry about it.
wiploc
Posts: 1,485
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4/26/2013 4:34:31 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/26/2013 12:46:06 PM, lannan13 wrote:
Wait in your first post (assuming there's 5 round) don't you not want to show all your cards?

Be clear, organized, cogent. Get your whole case out there. Win it all in the first round.

Your opponent will pick some issue, try to poke a hole. This is when you can bring in new information, because your opponent brought it up. When you're done with round two, you've fixed that hole, and shown that your original argument still stands strong. In round three, your opponent takes some issue with your patch job from round two. You show that that's not really an issue, and then you show once again that your whole argument from round one is unblemished.

Every round, you end by pointing out that your argument from round one still stands entire. The readers may get sick of hearing it, but they can't overlook it.

You don't hold back anything, so the only thing you have to introduce later is your rebuttals to your opponent's arguments.

If you did hold something back, your opponent could fairly say that you had dropped that argument.
wiploc
Posts: 1,485
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4/26/2013 4:41:14 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/26/2013 12:46:06 PM, lannan13 wrote:
Wait in your first post (assuming there's 5 round) ...

Avoid the five round debates. They're tedious and un-illuminating. The late rounds are less and less organized rehashings of what has already been said.

The exception is with opponents you've debated before and trust. If you know they are clear and organized and will actually be arguing material in round five that develops out of material that you introduced in round four, then you can do it.

I tend not even to read five round debates, and so don't want to ask others to read mine. You'll get more votes and comments on shorter debates.

Three rounds is good, or four rounds if round one is offer and acceptance.
wiploc
Posts: 1,485
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4/26/2013 4:42:06 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/26/2013 2:05:24 PM, FrackJack wrote:
At 4/26/2013 12:23:48 PM, wiploc wrote:
At 4/26/2013 11:22:13 AM, FrackJack wrote:
I could use a atheist teacher.

Is there an argument you're having problems with? I think I can dispose of any theist argument that doesn't involve polonium halos.

The Ontological argument really. I just want a general teacher

Cool. Find the version that bothers you, and paste it in here.
wiploc
Posts: 1,485
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4/26/2013 4:42:47 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/26/2013 4:26:31 PM, YYW wrote:
If I wrote a "how to make an argument" post, would that be helpful?

Way cool. Yes, post it.
F-16_Fighting_Falcon
Posts: 18,324
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4/26/2013 4:43:10 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
I can't think of any possible scenario where not revealing your arguments until later rounds is a good strategy. Arguments aren't missiles. You don't fire them and hope they hit the target. Arguments are like a building. You lay down the foundations, then build on it higher and stronger. The sooner you make your best arguments, the better as it offers you more chances to defend against rebuttals (which won't be able negate your argument - if your argument really is so strong).
lannan13
Posts: 23,022
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4/26/2013 9:50:57 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/26/2013 2:47:30 PM, Raisor wrote:
At 4/26/2013 12:46:06 PM, lannan13 wrote:
Wait in your first post (assuming there's 5 round) don't you not want to show all your cards?

You want to at least get the foundations for any argument you think you will win established in the first round.

There are times when it is smart to not put "A"arguments in your frontline but this is the exception and honestly would not worry about it.

That's basically what I'm saying.
-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-Lannan13'S SIGNATURE-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-

If the sky's the limit then why do we have footprints on the Moon? I'm shooting my aspirations for the stars.

"If you are going through hell, keep going." "Sir Winston Churchill

"No one can make you feel inferior without your consent." "Eleanor Roosevelt

Topics I want to debate. (http://tinyurl.com...)
-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~
YYW
Posts: 36,252
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4/26/2013 10:03:19 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/26/2013 4:42:47 PM, wiploc wrote:
At 4/26/2013 4:26:31 PM, YYW wrote:
If I wrote a "how to make an argument" post, would that be helpful?

Way cool. Yes, post it.

Ok... well I thought about it, and then I wondered... Has Princeton ever made anything which would speak to this matter? And then it dawned on me... YES! Indeed! They have published something about argument structure. So, here it is.

http://www.princeton.edu...

Not mine. Princeton's. I'm sure theirs is better than mine would have been anyway, lol.
Tsar of DDO
dylancatlow
Posts: 12,242
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4/26/2013 10:07:34 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/26/2013 10:03:19 PM, YYW wrote:
At 4/26/2013 4:42:47 PM, wiploc wrote:
At 4/26/2013 4:26:31 PM, YYW wrote:
If I wrote a "how to make an argument" post, would that be helpful?

Way cool. Yes, post it.

Ok... well I thought about it, and then I wondered... Has Princeton ever made anything which would speak to this matter? And then it dawned on me... YES! Indeed! They have published something about argument structure. So, here it is.

http://www.princeton.edu...

Not mine. Princeton's. I'm sure theirs is better than mine would have been anyway, lol.

I like how the author can't help but bash Bush the first chance he got.
dylancatlow
Posts: 12,242
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4/26/2013 10:10:48 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/26/2013 10:03:19 PM, YYW wrote:
At 4/26/2013 4:42:47 PM, wiploc wrote:
At 4/26/2013 4:26:31 PM, YYW wrote:
If I wrote a "how to make an argument" post, would that be helpful?

Way cool. Yes, post it.

Ok... well I thought about it, and then I wondered... Has Princeton ever made anything which would speak to this matter? And then it dawned on me... YES! Indeed! They have published something about argument structure. So, here it is.

http://www.princeton.edu...

Not mine. Princeton's. I'm sure theirs is better than mine would have been anyway, lol.

This is sure to piss off the conservative crowd lol....
imabench
Posts: 21,206
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4/26/2013 10:15:05 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/26/2013 12:40:19 AM, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:
At 4/26/2013 12:35:33 AM, Controverter wrote:
At 4/26/2013 12:17:36 AM, wiploc wrote:
Anjou accepted one of my offers to coach people so they debate better. Others can feel free to participate in one role or the other.

Anjou, would you like to work on your last topic (Gay Marriage) or start with your next topic (Assault Weapons Ban)?

In over one year of this site you only have done 28 debates.

xD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Quality over quantity.

I call bullsh*t
Kevin24018 : "He's just so mean it makes me want to ball up my fists and stamp on the ground"

7/14/16 = The Presidency Dies

DDO: THE MOVIE = http://www.debate.org...
http://www.debate.org...

VP of DDO from Dec 14th 2014 to Jan 1st 2015
YYW
Posts: 36,252
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4/26/2013 10:24:13 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/26/2013 10:10:48 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 4/26/2013 10:03:19 PM, YYW wrote:
At 4/26/2013 4:42:47 PM, wiploc wrote:
At 4/26/2013 4:26:31 PM, YYW wrote:
If I wrote a "how to make an argument" post, would that be helpful?

Way cool. Yes, post it.

Ok... well I thought about it, and then I wondered... Has Princeton ever made anything which would speak to this matter? And then it dawned on me... YES! Indeed! They have published something about argument structure. So, here it is.

http://www.princeton.edu...

Not mine. Princeton's. I'm sure theirs is better than mine would have been anyway, lol.

This is sure to piss off the conservative crowd lol....

Well, I'm quite the fan of Bush... as most on DDO know. That said, I think the author has an amusing sense of humor.

There is no reason not to have some fun while teaching basic argument structure:

P) All professors at Princeton are very intelligent.
P) Very intelligent people tend to be @ssholes.
C) Princeton professors are @ssholes.

P) Gay men have great fashion sense.
P) YYW is gay.
C) YYW is a sharp dresser.

P) Nick Cage ruins every movie he acts in.
P) Nick Cage starred in the hit movie National Treasure.
C) National treasure was horrible.

Fun. Fun. Fun.
Tsar of DDO
dylancatlow
Posts: 12,242
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4/26/2013 10:28:30 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/26/2013 10:24:13 PM, YYW wrote:
At 4/26/2013 10:10:48 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 4/26/2013 10:03:19 PM, YYW wrote:
At 4/26/2013 4:42:47 PM, wiploc wrote:
At 4/26/2013 4:26:31 PM, YYW wrote:
If I wrote a "how to make an argument" post, would that be helpful?

Way cool. Yes, post it.

Ok... well I thought about it, and then I wondered... Has Princeton ever made anything which would speak to this matter? And then it dawned on me... YES! Indeed! They have published something about argument structure. So, here it is.

http://www.princeton.edu...

Not mine. Princeton's. I'm sure theirs is better than mine would have been anyway, lol.

This is sure to piss off the conservative crowd lol....

Well, I'm quite the fan of Bush... as most on DDO know. That said, I think the author has an amusing sense of humor.

There is no reason not to have some fun while teaching basic argument structure:

P) All professors at Princeton are very intelligent.
P) Very intelligent people tend to be @ssholes.
C) Princeton professors are @ssholes.

P) Gay men have great fashion sense.
P) YYW is gay.
C) YYW is a sharp dresser.

P) Nick Cage ruins every movie he acts in.
P) Nick Cage starred in the hit movie National Treasure.
C) National treasure was horrible.

Fun. Fun. Fun.

But he's turning off the people who need logic the most!