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DDO Voting Changes

airmax1227
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8/2/2013 7:15:08 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Hey everyone,

I hope you are all well and that you continue to enjoy the site after several recent updates. One of the new features from the last update will significantly change voting protocol. Because moderators will now have the power to delete bad votes, I want to go over some of the implications that will have.

1) Counter voting is no longer necessary

If you see a bad vote, report it. Like all other reports that I get, this will be handled within 24 hours from the time it is reported. Obvious votebombs that were once countered immediately, will simply be deleted instead, as though they never happened.

Grey area votes will be handled in a slightly different way, just as are grey area issues of moderation on the site in general. Where once a controversial (not outright terrible) vote caused members to argue over whether a counter was legitimate without any clear resolution or consensus on it, instead the report function should be used (and members can send PMs about bad votes as well) so that a determination can be made more objectively. In other words if you see a controversial vote, please report it, it wont be deleted immediately, but a determination of its validity will be made.

The way this determination can be done in the fairest way possible is if there is a diverse group of volunteers willing to offer their feedback on such votes on a regular basis. Thus, I'd like any members who are willing, to contact me and let me know they are interested in helping with this. I imagine I will occasionally post a controversial vote in the forums, but ideally, to make this process quick and discrete, votes will be submitted to those willing, via group PMs for their feedback.

While time is not of the essence in this process as votes can be deleted even after the voting period ends, to maintain as democratic a method as possible over the long term, this process will need to work efficiently. The goal here, like my approach to all moderation on the site is to seek multilateral input, because the more people involved in the process and offering feedback the better.

Once this is implemented in its entirety we should see an even greater reduction than we have already with problem voting. Debates will no longer be decided by last second votebombs, and blatant vote bombs will simply be removed.

2) If your vote is deleted...

If you notice a vote you placed on a debate has been deleted, and you were not informed of why, you should assume that there was something wrong with your vote. While I will often inform members (as I have about voting conduct in general) that their vote was unacceptable and give them a chance to fix it, there may be instances where this isn't the case. Even if your vote has been removed, you may vote on a debate again -although your subsequent vote may still be subject to review. As a general rule, bad votes do not pass the guidelines of being thoughtful, objective and explaining every point they award. If it was deleted, it is likely for a lack of explanation for any points awarded, or due to circumstances violating generally accepted voting conduct.

A member may vote again on the debate, attempting to properly place a decent vote. However, if their vote once again fails significantly to take into account what is expected, their voting privileges may be removed. In other words, if a member has their vote removed and they simply want to spam votes, or troll debates by placing poor votes, their voting privileges will be removed and they will be contacted with an explanation. This is easily avoidable by anyone at least attempting to be a thoughtful voter.

3) Voting Privilege Removal

As has been done for awhile now, voting privileges may be removed for repeatedly poor conduct when voting. This is generally temporary (usually lasting one week) and the member is expected to request their voting privileges back when the suspension expires. A member is given an explanation whenever this occurs and told when their suspension is over. In the context of the new vote deletion aspects, it's important for members to realize that its less important now for members to have these privileges removed to protect voting integrity (as votes have no long term consequence anymore) but that this will still be utilized when members repeatedly show poor voting conduct. Revoking voting privileges is not taken lightly, they will be given plenty of thought and members do not need to worry that a couple mistakes may lead to losing their voting privileges. It's usually very clear when a member is attempting to be thoughtful (but may not fully understand how to vote) versus a member who simply wants to troll around with their votes.

4) Additional Aspects

There are likely some unforeseen issues that may occur after implementation. The goal is to remove all of the problems we have with voting without discouraging voting in general. Members should vote as much as they can, but do so thoughtfully, and explain every point they award. Members should strive to reach the top of the voting leaderboard, but not in such a way that causes their votes to be deleted, or their voting privileges to potentially be removed.

In summary:

1) Counter Votes (CVBs) are no longer allowed. Please report any poor votes that you see, including CVBs.

2) To determine grey areas of poor votes, I'd like members to volunteer to help with this process.

3) Repeat offenders of poor voting may have their voting privileges removed.

4) This site is a work in progress. Please offer your feedback so we can continue to make it better and implement what has the best chance of working.

I'd like to thank Juggle, every DDO member, and everyone interested in seeing the site continue to improve. If you have any questions, comments, suggestions or need anything at all, always feel free to contact me.

-Airmax
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thett3
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8/2/2013 7:16:26 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Sounds good. But there should seriously be a voting leaderboard as well
DDO Vice President

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"Don't quote me, ever." -Max

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: At 11/12/2016 11:49:40 PM, Raisor wrote:
: thett was right
airmax1227
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8/2/2013 7:20:15 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/2/2013 7:16:26 PM, thett3 wrote:
Sounds good. But there should seriously be a voting leaderboard as well

http://www.debate.org...

It's a work in progress though, this is just the beginning.
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thett3
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8/2/2013 7:21:12 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/2/2013 7:20:15 PM, airmax1227 wrote:
At 8/2/2013 7:16:26 PM, thett3 wrote:
Sounds good. But there should seriously be a voting leaderboard as well

http://www.debate.org...

It's a work in progress though, this is just the beginning.

Well I feel like an idiot now.
DDO Vice President

#StandwithBossy

#UnbanTheMadman

#BetOnThett

"Don't quote me, ever." -Max

"My name is max. I'm not a big fan of slacks"- Max rapping

"Walmart should have the opportunity to bribe a politician to it's agenda" -Max

"Thett, you're really good at convincing people you're a decent person"-tulle

"You fit the character of Regina George quite nicely"- Sam

: At 11/12/2016 11:49:40 PM, Raisor wrote:
: thett was right
airmax1227
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8/2/2013 7:26:23 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/2/2013 7:21:12 PM, thett3 wrote:
At 8/2/2013 7:20:15 PM, airmax1227 wrote:
At 8/2/2013 7:16:26 PM, thett3 wrote:
Sounds good. But there should seriously be a voting leaderboard as well

http://www.debate.org...

It's a work in progress though, this is just the beginning.

Well I feel like an idiot now.

It's ok... It's not exactly prominently displayed yet so missing it is understandable
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Citrakayah
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8/2/2013 7:36:33 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/2/2013 7:16:26 PM, thett3 wrote:
Sounds good. But there should seriously be a voting leaderboard as well

Shouldn't operate simply on number of votes, though. I mean, if I vote on a thousand forfeits and just say 'FF' that should count less than if I vote on a thousand actual debates and do point-by-point analysis.
thett3
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8/2/2013 7:39:23 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/2/2013 7:36:33 PM, Citrakayah wrote:
At 8/2/2013 7:16:26 PM, thett3 wrote:
Sounds good. But there should seriously be a voting leaderboard as well

Shouldn't operate simply on number of votes, though. I mean, if I vote on a thousand forfeits and just say 'FF' that should count less than if I vote on a thousand actual debates and do point-by-point analysis.

Agreed and when they finally implement some kind of voting rating system or something I'm sure that will be plugged into the leaderboard
DDO Vice President

#StandwithBossy

#UnbanTheMadman

#BetOnThett

"Don't quote me, ever." -Max

"My name is max. I'm not a big fan of slacks"- Max rapping

"Walmart should have the opportunity to bribe a politician to it's agenda" -Max

"Thett, you're really good at convincing people you're a decent person"-tulle

"You fit the character of Regina George quite nicely"- Sam

: At 11/12/2016 11:49:40 PM, Raisor wrote:
: thett was right
airmax1227
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8/2/2013 7:40:58 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/2/2013 7:36:33 PM, Citrakayah wrote:
At 8/2/2013 7:16:26 PM, thett3 wrote:
Sounds good. But there should seriously be a voting leaderboard as well

Shouldn't operate simply on number of votes, though. I mean, if I vote on a thousand forfeits and just say 'FF' that should count less than if I vote on a thousand actual debates and do point-by-point analysis.

Agreed. And this and many other factors will be taken into account for future updates to the voting leaderboard. The current voting leader board is just the basic leaderboard. It's a work in progress and many aspects and improvements are being considered. For this update, it was most important just to get the basic thing there and make sure members weren't spamming tons of bad votes, which is why we added the mod ability to delete votes so that doesn't happen.

We'll keep working on it and members are encouraged to offer their feedback and ideas.
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DetectableNinja
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8/2/2013 7:41:12 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Lol. If your vote is removed with no explanation, just assume it was bad?
Think'st thou heaven is such a glorious thing?
I tell thee, 'tis not half so fair as thou
Or any man that breathes on earth.

- Christopher Marlowe, Doctor Faustus
airmax1227
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8/2/2013 7:46:02 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/2/2013 7:41:12 PM, DetectableNinja wrote:
Lol. If your vote is removed with no explanation, just assume it was bad?

There's no other reason it would be removed. Most members will be given an explanation about it though so they can reform their voting. This is already essentially what is done regarding voting conduct in general.

The only other reason a vote may be removed is if it was done by a multi account.

But otherwise, a vote will likely only be reported and be removed, if it is concluded that it is a poor vote.

If someones forum post is removed, they can also assume it was removed for the same reason. So voting moderation and general site moderation is essentially the same thing and done with the same type of objectivity and seriousness.
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thett3
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8/2/2013 7:47:02 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Is it possible to remove a vote from a debate in the post-voting period?
DDO Vice President

#StandwithBossy

#UnbanTheMadman

#BetOnThett

"Don't quote me, ever." -Max

"My name is max. I'm not a big fan of slacks"- Max rapping

"Walmart should have the opportunity to bribe a politician to it's agenda" -Max

"Thett, you're really good at convincing people you're a decent person"-tulle

"You fit the character of Regina George quite nicely"- Sam

: At 11/12/2016 11:49:40 PM, Raisor wrote:
: thett was right
thett3
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8/2/2013 7:47:32 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/2/2013 7:47:02 PM, thett3 wrote:
Is it possible to remove a vote from a debate in the post-voting period?

Because if it is, time to eliminate all my losses.

Just kidding, but seriously is it possible?
DDO Vice President

#StandwithBossy

#UnbanTheMadman

#BetOnThett

"Don't quote me, ever." -Max

"My name is max. I'm not a big fan of slacks"- Max rapping

"Walmart should have the opportunity to bribe a politician to it's agenda" -Max

"Thett, you're really good at convincing people you're a decent person"-tulle

"You fit the character of Regina George quite nicely"- Sam

: At 11/12/2016 11:49:40 PM, Raisor wrote:
: thett was right
airmax1227
Posts: 13,240
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8/2/2013 7:49:25 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/2/2013 7:47:02 PM, thett3 wrote:
Is it possible to remove a vote from a debate in the post-voting period?

This is addressed in the OP, and yes.

I imagine this next couple weeks will see me get flooded with members reporting votes that VB'd their debates at the last second and saw them lose. So yes, these injustices can now be rectified.
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DetectableNinja
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8/2/2013 7:53:21 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/2/2013 7:46:02 PM, airmax1227 wrote:
At 8/2/2013 7:41:12 PM, DetectableNinja wrote:
Lol. If your vote is removed with no explanation, just assume it was bad?

There's no other reason it would be removed. Most members will be given an explanation about it though so they can reform their voting. This is already essentially what is done regarding voting conduct in general.

The only other reason a vote may be removed is if it was done by a multi account.

But otherwise, a vote will likely only be reported and be removed, if it is concluded that it is a poor vote.

If someones forum post is removed, they can also assume it was removed for the same reason. So voting moderation and general site moderation is essentially the same thing and done with the same type of objectivity and seriousness.

This isn't a personal thing for me, but I'm still curious. Is there then no recourse at all besides resubmitting?

This isn't to doubt the the competence of DDO moderation or anything, but I always get a bit iffy when moderation is assumed to be correct without any rationale necessary to the person being "punished," if you will.
Think'st thou heaven is such a glorious thing?
I tell thee, 'tis not half so fair as thou
Or any man that breathes on earth.

- Christopher Marlowe, Doctor Faustus
airmax1227
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8/2/2013 7:59:24 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/2/2013 7:53:21 PM, DetectableNinja wrote:
At 8/2/2013 7:46:02 PM, airmax1227 wrote:
At 8/2/2013 7:41:12 PM, DetectableNinja wrote:
Lol. If your vote is removed with no explanation, just assume it was bad?

There's no other reason it would be removed. Most members will be given an explanation about it though so they can reform their voting. This is already essentially what is done regarding voting conduct in general.

The only other reason a vote may be removed is if it was done by a multi account.

But otherwise, a vote will likely only be reported and be removed, if it is concluded that it is a poor vote.

If someones forum post is removed, they can also assume it was removed for the same reason. So voting moderation and general site moderation is essentially the same thing and done with the same type of objectivity and seriousness.

This isn't a personal thing for me, but I'm still curious. Is there then no recourse at all besides resubmitting?

You can contact me personally and discuss it until you are satisfied with the explanation. As explained in the OP, this isn't something I'm doing unilaterally.

This isn't to doubt the the competence of DDO moderation or anything, but I always get a bit iffy when moderation is assumed to be correct without any rationale necessary to the person being "punished," if you will.

I understand your reservations, which is the main reason for the OP. The best way to be sure that this is being done fairly and in the best way possible it to be involved in the process. The OP asks for members to volunteer to help with reviewing grey area votes, if you want to be sure that this is being done fairly and thoroughly, be someone who is a part of that process.
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ClassicRobert
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8/2/2013 8:10:23 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Of course, anti-statists will be skeptical of this strengthening of central power.
Debate me: Economic decision theory should be adjusted to include higher-order preferences for non-normative purposes http://www.debate.org...

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airmax1227
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8/2/2013 8:22:06 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/2/2013 8:10:23 PM, ClassicRobert wrote:
Of course, anti-statists will be skeptical of this strengthening of central power.

Naturally. And they'll probably protest against it until they ask me to delete a last second VB that lost them a debate. ;)

I do recognize the issues here and the perceptions of me having this type of control over votes (It's not dissimilar to my site moderation abilities in general) but this change is overall a good thing for the site. We no longer have to waste votes on CVBs, or deal with the issue of permanent votes, and can now move onto concentrating on how to encourage more voting in general.
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imabench
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8/2/2013 9:16:45 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Lol, damn Airmax you're going to get SOOOOOOOOO much mail now XD
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Magic8000
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8/2/2013 10:44:40 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
If your vote gets deleted, do you get a notification?
404 coherent debate topic not found. Please restart the debate with clear resolution.

"So Magic8000 believes Einstein was a proctologist who was persuaded by the Government and Hitler to fabricate the Theory of Relativity"- GWL-CPA
airmax1227
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8/2/2013 10:54:10 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/2/2013 10:44:40 PM, Magic8000 wrote:
If your vote gets deleted, do you get a notification?

If you mean a notification in the notification menu, no.

But members who have their votes deleted will generally be contacted about it so they can avoid it in the future. Most of the deleted votes will be outright VBs (which we seem to have fewer of anyway these days), and in those cases it should be obvious. But members will likely be informed of this anyway, especially if they have a history of it.

This is already essentially done and has been so for awhile, as it was crucial before this to inform members to stop placing votebombs in lieu of having the ability to remove their votes. We then gained the ability to remove voting privileges so it became even more important to explain to members how to properly vote so I didn't have to remove those privileges.

In short, yes, a member will generally be notified if their vote is being deleted.
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Ragnar
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8/3/2013 12:41:31 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
To decrease flood, an icon needs to be added to votes that were reviewed and remained. Possibly moderator comments on some.

On that note: perhaps some borderline votes should merely be modified instead of outright deleted, this being more important on closed debates to which the user can no longer revote.

Generally people should probably get a copy of their rejected vote text, to ease revoting when it's an honest mistake.
Unofficial DDO Guide: http://goo.gl...
(It's probably the best help resource here, other than talking to people...)

Voting Standards: https://goo.gl...

And please disable Smart-Quotes: https://goo.gl...
airmax1227
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8/3/2013 1:08:36 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/3/2013 12:41:31 AM, Ragnar wrote:
To decrease flood, an icon needs to be added to votes that were reviewed and remained. Possibly moderator comments on some.

On that note: perhaps some borderline votes should merely be modified instead of outright deleted, this being more important on closed debates to which the user can no longer revote.

Generally people should probably get a copy of their rejected vote text, to ease revoting when it's an honest mistake.

These are valid points and ideas and I'll keep them in mind.

The overwhelming majority of the time, the only effected votes will be outright VBs (7 points awarded with an RFD that is entirely lacking or doesn't make sense.. or unexplained points awarded to juice the vote). The grey area stuff isn't likely going to be touched often.

Members are free to report any votes they like, and just as debates/posts reported are often frivolous (many debates/post are reported because the reporter disagrees with the resolution/post) I imagine the same will be true of reported votes. These reports will be similarly dismissed.

I've taken a liberal approach to moderation on the site in general and only in cases where votes are blatantly poor conduct will immediate actions be taken. But there are iffy circumstances and in these cases, we'll want to evaluate if something should be done. For the most part, it's obvious when members are trying to formulate a proper vote, and it's rare that we consider this "poor voting conduct". In many other cases, its simply an issue of the voter not understanding how to vote.

This is where I imagine the major focus is going to be, teaching new members how to vote and removing the negative effects they have on the site. I've been doing this for over a year with the tools I've had available. At first it was just sending members a message about it, then temp removals of voting privileges. Now we can entirely eliminate the consequences of poor voting, but only in cases where it is clear that this has occurred. In cases where it isn't clear, but a vote is reviewed, I generally feel as though most members give the voter the benefit of the doubt. However, sometimes we would see ideological counters in these cases which is why I feel its best to remove counter voting altogether and keep vote integrity as objective as possible.

Certainly there are going to be questionable and controversial instances, in those cases where a member feels unsatisfied with the results of a report and a review they should contact me personally and even reach out to the community for their opinions on a particular vote.

As I said, this is a work in progress and I don't imagine any new system we put in place will be perfect right away. This is a substantial change from the way things have been for a long time, but I think voting will improve and be more fair with these changes.
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unitedandy
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8/3/2013 3:10:57 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Sounds great. The only thing I'd object to is allowing voters to vote again in the same debate after they've had their vote removed. I think an inevitable consequence of this will be poor voters rationalising their vote. If someone votes against you without reading the debate, for example, how could you have any confidence in their next vote being fair, even if they then bothered to read it?
Ragnar
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8/3/2013 3:46:58 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/3/2013 3:10:57 PM, unitedandy wrote:
If someone votes against you without reading the debate, for example, how could you have any confidence in their next vote being fair, even if they then bothered to read it?

It sounds like people are going to get suspensions to voting privileges a little more often now. Such should not be so bad of a problem.

Besides, it's still a huge step up from things right now.
Unofficial DDO Guide: http://goo.gl...
(It's probably the best help resource here, other than talking to people...)

Voting Standards: https://goo.gl...

And please disable Smart-Quotes: https://goo.gl...
lannan13
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8/3/2013 3:52:51 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/2/2013 7:20:15 PM, airmax1227 wrote:
At 8/2/2013 7:16:26 PM, thett3 wrote:
Sounds good. But there should seriously be a voting leaderboard as well

http://www.debate.org...

It's a work in progress though, this is just the beginning.

I agree with the Post leader board, but I think this is somewhat rediculous.
-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-Lannan13'S SIGNATURE-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-

If the sky's the limit then why do we have footprints on the Moon? I'm shooting my aspirations for the stars.

"If you are going through hell, keep going." "Sir Winston Churchill

"No one can make you feel inferior without your consent." "Eleanor Roosevelt

Topics I want to debate. (http://tinyurl.com...)
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airmax1227
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8/3/2013 4:01:56 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/3/2013 3:52:51 PM, lannan13 wrote:
At 8/2/2013 7:20:15 PM, airmax1227 wrote:
At 8/2/2013 7:16:26 PM, thett3 wrote:
Sounds good. But there should seriously be a voting leaderboard as well

http://www.debate.org...

It's a work in progress though, this is just the beginning.

I agree with the Post leader board, but I think this is somewhat rediculous.

I believe most members actually feel the opposite way. The vote leaderboard encourages voting, while the post leaderboard is just kinda random.
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unitedandy
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8/3/2013 4:03:51 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/3/2013 3:46:58 PM, Ragnar wrote:
At 8/3/2013 3:10:57 PM, unitedandy wrote:
If someone votes against you without reading the debate, for example, how could you have any confidence in their next vote being fair, even if they then bothered to read it?

It sounds like people are going to get suspensions to voting privileges a little more often now. Such should not be so bad of a problem.

Besides, it's still a huge step up from things right now.

I agree it's a huge improvement. But if someone sees fit to votebomb a debate, why allow them to vote again on the same debate? If they're inclined to votebomb in the first place, chances are the person they've voted against has zero chance of winning their vote, even if they dress it up as a more respectable way in their second attempt.

Realistically, votes will be biased to some extent. But I don't understand why a debater should have to put up with a voter already guilty of voting unfairly or why such voters should be given another chance in the same debate. Trust me, when this happens, you have no confidence in their next vote.
lannan13
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8/3/2013 4:04:08 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/3/2013 4:01:56 PM, airmax1227 wrote:
At 8/3/2013 3:52:51 PM, lannan13 wrote:
At 8/2/2013 7:20:15 PM, airmax1227 wrote:
At 8/2/2013 7:16:26 PM, thett3 wrote:
Sounds good. But there should seriously be a voting leaderboard as well

http://www.debate.org...

It's a work in progress though, this is just the beginning.

I agree with the Post leader board, but I think this is somewhat rediculous.

I believe most members actually feel the opposite way. The vote leaderboard encourages voting, while the post leaderboard is just kinda random.

The post leaderboard gives me a target. Royal. My goal is to pass here on the board. Rather on votes I think it will encourage vote bombings unless you get some kinda ELO for votes.
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If the sky's the limit then why do we have footprints on the Moon? I'm shooting my aspirations for the stars.

"If you are going through hell, keep going." "Sir Winston Churchill

"No one can make you feel inferior without your consent." "Eleanor Roosevelt

Topics I want to debate. (http://tinyurl.com...)
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airmax1227
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8/3/2013 4:04:47 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/3/2013 3:10:57 PM, unitedandy wrote:
Sounds great. The only thing I'd object to is allowing voters to vote again in the same debate after they've had their vote removed. I think an inevitable consequence of this will be poor voters rationalising their vote. If someone votes against you without reading the debate, for example, how could you have any confidence in their next vote being fair, even if they then bothered to read it?

I agree to an extent, and it is a concern of mine. But we want to give voters the opportunity to reform their vote and their voting habits. So allowing them to vote again is ultimately encouraging that. Since their is little consequence of them voting poorly again, I don't see the downside to it.

But ultimately you will be correct about this circumstance in many instances, and if a voter repeatedly tries to get a VB through on a debate, the vote will be repeatedly deleted, they will be warned about it, and may ultimately lose their voting privileges temporarily.
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airmax1227
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8/3/2013 4:06:13 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/3/2013 4:04:08 PM, lannan13 wrote:
At 8/3/2013 4:01:56 PM, airmax1227 wrote:
At 8/3/2013 3:52:51 PM, lannan13 wrote:
At 8/2/2013 7:20:15 PM, airmax1227 wrote:
At 8/2/2013 7:16:26 PM, thett3 wrote:
Sounds good. But there should seriously be a voting leaderboard as well

http://www.debate.org...

It's a work in progress though, this is just the beginning.

I agree with the Post leader board, but I think this is somewhat rediculous.

I believe most members actually feel the opposite way. The vote leaderboard encourages voting, while the post leaderboard is just kinda random.

The post leaderboard gives me a target. Royal. My goal is to pass here on the board. Rather on votes I think it will encourage vote bombings unless you get some kinda ELO for votes.

That same goal should exist for both (well less for posts because it encourages spam) and the same quality control exists for both. While it does encourage VBs, this thread explains how we are going to prevent that.
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