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FlashMob,Trolls, and future of DDO

Kleptin
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12/12/2009 10:44:26 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
DDO is a tight-knit community. This is not a good thing.

We have developed personalities on this site and connections with our fellow members. As such, we have destroyed the one thing that makes online-debate so great: the fact that we can say what we want without social repercussions, moderated only by logic and reason.

The only spurts of activity come from opinionated newcomers, who have not yet established themselves into our community, trolls and those with extreme viewpoints because they don't CARE about assimilation and only care about getting their point across, and the occasional meta-debate, tournament, or mafia game.

For the last three, the explanation is simple: We are FORCED to turn against ourselves. It is apparent that we are losing the ability to do that willingly, probably because we have become so close.

As such, I have done several things in the past week, in an experiment to remedy the situation WITHOUT relying on trolls.

First, I have increased my activity on this site by provoking more discussion on issues that I have steered clear of before. I have made it a point not to discuss politics and I have branched out into it, knowing I have little experience thinking along political lines. This has culminated in a very interesting 3-way discussion about China and human rights, as well as a new topic "Aggro Assault" where I try to hit 3 positions that most people I know in real life would be offended by if I were to actually post my opinion.

I am hoping that we can eventually move into a stable equilibrium where people can post outlandishly offensive or provoking statements without worrying about how their relationships with people on DDO will be affected. However, I fear that this is too idealistic because inherently, people don't like it when others disagree with them.

Second, my idea for the DDO Flash mob was an idea I had been toying around with to troll other forums in a positive way. Like tournaments, mafia games, and meta-debates, this forces our community to turn one each other in terms of debate, while still strengthening our bonds. The general idea is that if we do what we do best in a place that isn't DDO, it will be novel enough to entertain us and possibly to trigger some good feedback and maybe even recruit.

I am hoping that we can expand this movement into one of mass recruitment.

What do you guys think?
: At 5/2/2010 2:43:54 PM, innomen wrote:
It isn't about finding a theory, philosophy or doctrine and thinking it's the answer, but a practical application of one's experiences that is the answer.

: At 10/28/2010 2:40:07 PM, jharry wrote: I have already been given the greatest Gift that anyone could ever hope for [Life], I would consider myself selfish if I expected anything more.
wjmelements
Posts: 8,206
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12/12/2009 10:48:56 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
I'll debate JBlake or Volkov over Christmas break.
I have a debate over social contract first.
in the blink of an eye you finally see the light
Harlan
Posts: 1,880
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12/12/2009 11:35:17 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
Why would you care what people think of your outlandish views? I find that strange enough in real life, but even stranger with people on the internet.

I doubt anybody is withholding their views. Unless they're religious, in which case they may keep those beliefs separate from argumentation because they are insecure about it.
Kleptin
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12/12/2009 12:22:08 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 12/12/2009 11:35:17 AM, Harlan wrote:
Why would you care what people think of your outlandish views? I find that strange enough in real life, but even stranger with people on the internet.

How is that strange at all? People censor themselves in society all the time because disagreement is not viewed in a positive light by the vast majority of the population. We censor ourselves all the time in order to "keep up appearances". If you've ever worked in an office setting then this is should be apparent. It may be a bit stranger on the internet, but when relationships are formed as with DDO, then it removes the protection of anonymity for everyone except newcomers and trolls.

Based on this, my guess is that seniority, xenophobia, and the close-knit nature of the DDO community have affected this site in a negative way. I just think that if brought to mind, it might help.

I doubt anybody is withholding their views. Unless they're religious, in which case they may keep those beliefs separate from argumentation because they are insecure about it.

I disagree. There are 3 explanations for this constant decline in activity.

1. People agree too much- Not so because people on the forum really do have differing views.

2. All topics have been discussed to death- A possibility, but less so since the same topics are still circulating.

3. People are holding back- As witnessed when new members or trolls appear on the forum and there is a sudden burst of activity.

I find that this is the most reasonable explanation for the constant decline of activity. Activity wasn't even spectacular over the summer when school was out.
: At 5/2/2010 2:43:54 PM, innomen wrote:
It isn't about finding a theory, philosophy or doctrine and thinking it's the answer, but a practical application of one's experiences that is the answer.

: At 10/28/2010 2:40:07 PM, jharry wrote: I have already been given the greatest Gift that anyone could ever hope for [Life], I would consider myself selfish if I expected anything more.
johngriswald
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12/12/2009 12:36:25 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 12/12/2009 10:44:26 AM, Kleptin wrote:
the fact that we can say what we want without social repercussions, moderated only by logic and reason.

I have no problem saying what I want to anyone.
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PoeJoe
Posts: 3,822
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12/12/2009 3:55:39 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
I say, let it be. This is a place of fun and relaxation. No need to take it too seriously. If we're holding up facades, it ultimately doesn't matter. If we aren't, then, again, it doesn't really matter. Let DDO be what it wants to be. Things will change. We won't be able to help it.
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Danielle
Posts: 21,330
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12/12/2009 3:58:14 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 12/12/2009 12:36:25 PM, johngriswald wrote:

I have no problem saying what I want to anyone.

You and me both, sister.
President of DDO
Volkov
Posts: 9,765
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12/12/2009 4:02:53 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
I agree with PoeJoe. Let DDO be. It has turned into a community of friends and intellectuals where the prevailing condition is one of friendly competition with an interest in learning. We can't ask for much more.

Granted this makes it a little more complicated, and people have to moderate what they say from time to time in relation to their various friendships, but so what? That is reality, and it doesn't subtract anything from the website.
johngriswald
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12/12/2009 4:06:18 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 12/12/2009 4:02:53 PM, Volkov wrote:
Granted this makes it a little more complicated, and people have to moderate what they say from time to time in relation to their various friendships, but so what? That is reality, and it doesn't subtract anything from the website.

friendships?
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Volkov
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12/12/2009 4:10:40 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 12/12/2009 4:06:18 PM, johngriswald wrote:
At 12/12/2009 4:02:53 PM, Volkov wrote:
Granted this makes it a little more complicated, and people have to moderate what they say from time to time in relation to their various friendships, but so what? That is reality, and it doesn't subtract anything from the website.

friendships?

Yes, "friendships." What else do you call amiable relations between individuals?
Kleptin
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12/12/2009 4:11:27 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 12/12/2009 4:02:53 PM, Volkov wrote:
I agree with PoeJoe. Let DDO be. It has turned into a community of friends and intellectuals where the prevailing condition is one of friendly competition with an interest in learning. We can't ask for much more.

Granted this makes it a little more complicated, and people have to moderate what they say from time to time in relation to their various friendships, but so what? That is reality, and it doesn't subtract anything from the website.

Actually, it does. It moves things into a stagnant puddle where intellectual exchange should be occurring. It's nice to have a friendly place to chat, but I get enough of that outside my computer.

I remember a time in DDC history where the debate challenges were always 1-2 pages long. In my first week I participated in 20 or so debates, shortly after stalking L-M and adopting his debate style. Those days are long gone and I regret that.

Besides, I'm not advocating anything that would harm the friendly dynamic we have here. I just thought that the inactivity was a result of people forgetting that we don't NEED to "keep up appearances" on this site.
: At 5/2/2010 2:43:54 PM, innomen wrote:
It isn't about finding a theory, philosophy or doctrine and thinking it's the answer, but a practical application of one's experiences that is the answer.

: At 10/28/2010 2:40:07 PM, jharry wrote: I have already been given the greatest Gift that anyone could ever hope for [Life], I would consider myself selfish if I expected anything more.
johngriswald
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12/12/2009 4:11:47 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 12/12/2009 4:10:40 PM, Volkov wrote:
Yes, "friendships." What else do you call amiable relations between individuals?

Over the internet? Internet buddies.

In real life: Friendships.
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wjmelements
Posts: 8,206
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12/12/2009 4:12:10 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 12/12/2009 4:10:40 PM, Volkov wrote:
Yes, "friendships." What else do you call amiable relations between individuals?

Charity.
in the blink of an eye you finally see the light
PoeJoe
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12/12/2009 4:15:22 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 12/12/2009 4:11:27 PM, Kleptin wrote:
At 12/12/2009 4:02:53 PM, Volkov wrote:
I agree with PoeJoe. Let DDO be. It has turned into a community of friends and intellectuals where the prevailing condition is one of friendly competition with an interest in learning. We can't ask for much more.

Granted this makes it a little more complicated, and people have to moderate what they say from time to time in relation to their various friendships, but so what? That is reality, and it doesn't subtract anything from the website.

Actually, it does. It moves things into a stagnant puddle where intellectual exchange should be occurring. It's nice to have a friendly place to chat, but I get enough of that outside my computer.

I would say DDO is already much, much better than real life.

Besides, it doesn't really matter. Don't you have close friends to talk to about your most personal spiritual discoveries?

I remember a time in DDC history where the debate challenges were always 1-2 pages long. In my first week I participated in 20 or so debates, shortly after stalking L-M and adopting his debate style. Those days are long gone and I regret that.

This has to do with WebCorp's massive advertising campaign on FaceBook. If you want to advertise DDO, then be my guest. But I think a conscious effort to change the culture of DDO is a little absurd. Like I said, let it be.
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Danielle
Posts: 21,330
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12/12/2009 4:16:55 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
I agree entirely with Kleptin.

"I am hoping that we can eventually move into a stable equilibrium where people can post outlandishly offensive or provoking statements without worrying about how their relationships with people on DDO will be affected."

I say whatever I want lol I think most people here can attest to that. I agree with you entirely about people maintaining stupid DDO status quos. I think I've been pretty straight forward my entire tenure here; we're a tight knit community, sure, but at the end of the day I don't know you and you don't know me. I'm sure people here have some ridiculous bitchy impression of me and that's fine, I guess.

I think people's obsession with hearing about themselves and manifesting some sort of irrelevant "community identity" is why this type of thing is happening. For instance, DDO awards? Really? A DDO president? Granted I know that started out as a joke, but when you have these things where people vote for each other and create stereotypes of one another (i.e. DDO themed anything - like mafia games, etc.) then really it just becomes like HS where people are trying desperately to perpetuate or uphold some kind of popularity contest. Nobody wants to step on each others toes or say something bold which they feel might drastically change public perception.

I've been noticing your changes, Kleptin, and I say bravo. You've been far more outspoken ever since 1-2-3 pushed your buttons regarding racism - don't think I haven't noticed :) Hopefully more people will realize how lame it is to take their DDO characterizations or social expectations too seriously. It really doesn't matter. Anyway if there's anything I can do to help, let me know.
President of DDO
johngriswald
Posts: 1,294
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12/12/2009 4:20:51 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 12/12/2009 4:15:22 PM, PoeJoe wrote:
I would say DDO is already much, much better than real life.

Yes of course you would LOL.

Besides, it doesn't really matter. Don't you have close friends to talk to about your most personal spiritual discoveries?

No, I have close friends who I steal crap with. I have close friends who I get in snowball fights with. I have close friends who I hang out with. I have close friends that I would sacrifice things for.
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johngriswald
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12/12/2009 4:21:11 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 12/12/2009 4:12:10 PM, wjmelements wrote:
At 12/12/2009 4:10:40 PM, Volkov wrote:
Yes, "friendships." What else do you call amiable relations between individuals?

Charity.

10/10
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Volkov
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12/12/2009 4:21:30 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 12/12/2009 4:12:10 PM, wjmelements wrote:
Charity.

You must be lonely.

At 12/12/2009 4:11:47 PM, johngriswald wrote:
Over the internet? Internet buddies.

In real life: Friendships.

Semantics, nothing more.

At 12/12/2009 4:11:27 PM, Kleptin wrote:
Actually, it does. It moves things into a stagnant puddle where intellectual exchange should be occurring. It's nice to have a friendly place to chat, but I get enough of that outside my computer.

Then don't take part in the community, Kleptin. No one is forcing you, because you can certainly create debates and threads with a purely intellectual base and never, ever take part in casual conversation.

Besides, I'm not advocating anything that would harm the friendly dynamic we have here. I just thought that the inactivity was a result of people forgetting that we don't NEED to "keep up appearances" on this site.

I'm not sure I understand. Care to elaborate?
Danielle
Posts: 21,330
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12/12/2009 4:23:40 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
I think Kleptin's point was that this site has become more about maintaining online friendships than debating. The thing is, I guess that's what some people are here for (friends). I guess we're all here for different reasons, and we should just stay true to that and not worry too much about the others.

So, on one hand Volkov is right - We should leave people to enjoy this site however they'd like. If they want to hide behind some sort of fabricated online identity then so be it. However, Kleptin's got a point to: If we let that happen, then the social aspects of DDO will trump the intellectual debate/discussion.

I think there are some people here who can manage both. For instance, johngriswald and Nags are two people I can think of who contribute without holding back, even if they come off douchey sometimes (the way I can come off bitchy). I can respect that about them even if I might disagree with them. Then there are some others who seriously need to get over themselves; just because you aren't trying to impress others doesn't mean you need to be a d1ck either. I won't mention names, but...
President of DDO
wjmelements
Posts: 8,206
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12/12/2009 4:25:12 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 12/12/2009 4:23:40 PM, theLwerd wrote:
\I won't mention names, but...

but everyone knows who you're ranting about.
in the blink of an eye you finally see the light
Volkov
Posts: 9,765
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12/12/2009 4:33:12 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 12/12/2009 4:23:40 PM, theLwerd wrote:
I think Kleptin's point was that this site has become more about maintaining online friendships than debating. The thing is, I guess that's what some people are here for (friends). I guess we're all here for different reasons, and we should just stay true to that and not worry too much about the others.

I agree with the conclusion, that people shouldn't be here only to continue any online friendships, especially at the expense of discussion and debate.

However, I dispute the assertion that the site has become that. Most people I see here are always contributing to discussion, even if they are at the same time maintaining an online friendship. There is constant discussion in the forums of things that most people would never bother to talk about in such a setting - like Kleptin's defense of the Chinese government. Yet people, for the most part, are respectful and friendly while still being competitive, and it is that dynamic that makes the site work.

I have no problems with it, why does everyone else?
johngriswald
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12/12/2009 4:39:32 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 12/12/2009 4:11:47 PM, johngriswald wrote:
Over the internet? Internet buddies.

In real life: Friendships.

Semantics, nothing more.

That's obviously what this argument is about. The meaning of friendships and internet buddies is completely different.
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Volkov
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12/12/2009 4:43:42 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 12/12/2009 4:39:32 PM, johngriswald wrote:
That's obviously what this argument is about. The meaning of friendships and internet buddies is completely different.

Internet buddies... internet buddies... can't find that in any known dictionary and/or encyclopedia. So, what meaning that isn't relative can you give that is different from "friendship."?
johngriswald
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12/12/2009 4:52:14 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 12/12/2009 4:43:42 PM, Volkov wrote:
At 12/12/2009 4:39:32 PM, johngriswald wrote:
That's obviously what this argument is about. The meaning of friendships and internet buddies is completely different.

Internet buddies... internet buddies... can't find that in any known dictionary and/or encyclopedia. So, what meaning that isn't relative can you give that is different from "friendship."?

Friendship: People who I hang out and do crazy crap with in real life. People who I would sacrifice something for.

Internet Buddies: People who I debate with, communicate with, and discuss things with online but have no knowledge of them in real life.

The only real friend on this site that I would sacrifice something for is JBlake. No offense to anyone else.
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Volkov
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12/12/2009 4:54:30 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 12/12/2009 4:52:14 PM, johngriswald wrote:
The only real friend on this site that I would sacrifice something for is JBlake. No offense to anyone else.

That was pretty relative, which leads me to believe that you don't have a real definition to separate the two.

Granted, I don't care, because you call people what you want to call them. But the same goes for myself. Get it?
johngriswald
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12/12/2009 5:28:19 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 12/12/2009 4:54:30 PM, Volkov wrote:
Get it?

No
http://lemmycaution.files.wordpress.com...
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Vi_Veri
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12/12/2009 5:53:51 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 12/12/2009 4:52:14 PM, johngriswald wrote:
At 12/12/2009 4:43:42 PM, Volkov wrote:
At 12/12/2009 4:39:32 PM, johngriswald wrote:
That's obviously what this argument is about. The meaning of friendships and internet buddies is completely different.

Internet buddies... internet buddies... can't find that in any known dictionary and/or encyclopedia. So, what meaning that isn't relative can you give that is different from "friendship."?

Friendship: People who I hang out and do crazy crap with in real life. People who I would sacrifice something for.

Internet Buddies: People who I debate with, communicate with, and discuss things with online but have no knowledge of them in real life.

The only real friend on this site that I would sacrifice something for is JBlake. No offense to anyone else.

lol To define a friend as someone you would sacrifice something for is quite frankly laughable. You sacrifice things for your close loved ones (like your girlfriend, etc) or your best friends. I don't know about you, but my friends at some of the clubs I'm involved in, or my friends in some of my classes wouldn't be worth sacrificing for.

I would consider a few people on DDO as my friends. I don't see anything wrong with that. I have quite a few friends online. Some I've had for almost 10 years. My friends who I talk with probably a lot less in real life don't deserve the title "friend" just because they are in real life ;)

Also, you said that we probably don't know much about people online - we know quite a few things about one anothers lives. A hell of a lot more than I know about some of my friends in my clubs, on my soccer team, in my theater group, or classroom buddies. I really don't know what our Goalie thought about the last election.......

Tsk Tsk
I could give a f about no haters as long as my ishes love me.
Danielle
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12/12/2009 6:14:37 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 12/12/2009 4:25:12 PM, wjmelements wrote:
At 12/12/2009 4:23:40 PM, theLwerd wrote:
\I won't mention names, but...

but everyone knows who you're ranting about.

You're assuming mongeese, and you're wrong.
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Danielle
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12/12/2009 6:30:53 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
Anyway I think the discussion has veered off course. I don't think the point was that we shouldn't be "friends" but rather we shouldn't let our DDO stereotypes or desire to maintain "friendships" influence our contribution on the site. I think Kleptin was trying to say that the internet is supposed to be a place where people can "be themselves" without worrying about upholding a specific persona... but it seems as if we're falling into the same pattern of maintaining a social identity that we think we're supposed to (i.e. "I am the resident lesbian on DDO") -- In other words, our community is mirroring our real life need and actions for acceptance, and acceptance on this site comes in the form of upholding a certain stereotype regardless of what that may be (even fascists are welcome!).

Anyway, I think that's what he's saying. However, I agree with Volkov that it's really not a huge deal. The reality is that it all depends on your personality and mindset. Kleptin, you probably feel the way you do because you've been inhibiting yourself or feeling like you're 'supposed' to be a certain way. If you're over that, then cool. You won't be able to stop people from caring about what others think of them though.
President of DDO