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Leaderboard Fun Facts

BellumQuodPacis
Posts: 1,646
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12/15/2009 1:39:14 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
I just thought that while I was exploring the leaderboards, I would post some of the fun things I came across:

Overall Rankings:
#1: theLwerd
#2: Logical-Master
#3: Kleptin
#4: Tatarize
#5: TheSkeptic
#6: brian_eggleston
#7: JustCallMeTarzan
#8: Yraelz
#9: Raganr_Rahl
#10: Mongeese
#11: RoyLatham
#12: wjmelements
#13: studentathletechristian8
#14: rougeagent21
#15: Puck
#16: MTGandP
#17: InquireTruth
#18: Johnicle
#19: JBlake
#20: solo
#21: Mangani
#22: Vi_Veri
#23: Nags
#24: Pluto2493
#25: cody30228
#26: DucoNihilum
#27: feverish
#28: burningpuppies101
#29: LakevilleNorthJT
#30: Freeman

This is where it gets interesting. When I sort who has the most debates, it appears like this, numbers in parenthesis show change in rank:
#1: theLwerd (-)
#2: Brian_Eggleston (+4)
#3: Logical-Master (-1)
#4: mongeese (+6)
#5: Tatarize (-1)
#6: Kleptin (-3)
#7: Ragnar_Rahl (+2)
#8: TheSkeptic (-3)
#9: Yraelz (-1)
#10: JustCallMeTarzan (-3)

BOLD appears in overall top 10

So as you can see, some debaters jump around everywhere, pretty cool eh?

Now here it is by Wins (denotes change in rank from overall leaderboard):
THE TOP 20 LEADERBOARD DOESNT CHANGE AT ALL
The only noticable change in the leaderboard is Vi_Veri overtaking Mangani.

Now comes the failures of DDO the most losses (change in rank from overall leader board):

#1: Dairygirl4u2c (+73)
#2: Mongeese (+8)
#3: brian_eggleston (+3)
#4: Solarman1969 (+103)
#5: InfraRedEd (+209)
#6: Ragnar_Rahl (+3)
#7: Tatarize (-3)

#8: bigbass3000 (+43)
#9: revleader5 (+33)
#10: Harlan (+46)

Cool eh? 4 of our top 10, are in the top 10 losers. LOL

So, that concludes this edition of leaderboard fun facts.

Bai!
wjmelements
Posts: 8,206
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12/23/2009 1:38:43 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 12/15/2009 1:39:14 PM, BellumQuodPacis wrote:
I have too much time on my hands.
in the blink of an eye you finally see the light
mongeese
Posts: 5,387
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12/23/2009 2:27:32 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 12/15/2009 1:39:14 PM, BellumQuodPacis wrote:
Now comes the failures of DDO the most losses (change in rank from overall leader board):

#1: Dairygirl4u2c (+73)
#2: Mongeese (+8)
#3: brian_eggleston (+3)
#4: Solarman1969 (+103)
#5: InfraRedEd (+209)
#6: Ragnar_Rahl (+3)
#7: Tatarize (-3)

#8: bigbass3000 (+43)
#9: revleader5 (+33)
#10: Harlan (+46)

Cool eh? 4 of our top 10, are in the top 10 losers. LOL

Stupid vote-bombers.
Chrysippus
Posts: 2,173
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12/23/2009 2:39:39 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 12/23/2009 1:38:43 PM, wjmelements wrote:
At 12/15/2009 1:39:14 PM, BellumQuodPacis wrote:
I have FAR too much time on my hands.

Fixed.
Cavete mea inexorabilis legiones mimus!
RoyLatham
Posts: 4,488
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12/29/2009 1:01:47 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
The top of the leader board is strictly ranked by number of wins. Win 250 of 1000 debates, and you would be on top. It basically ranks participation rather than debate skill, although one expects that eager participants would tend to be the better debaters.
omelet
Posts: 416
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12/29/2009 1:05:18 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
The entire leaderboard is strictly done by number of wins.

You'll note some discrepancies - this is because leader board ranking is not always fully updated, while number of wins/losses/etc is.
Volkov
Posts: 9,765
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12/29/2009 1:10:32 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 12/29/2009 1:05:18 PM, omelet wrote:
The entire leaderboard is strictly done by number of wins.

You'll note some discrepancies - this is because leader board ranking is not always fully updated, while number of wins/losses/etc is.

No, that's wrong. The leaderboard is a mix of the number of wins as well as participation. It is automatically updated as far as I've seen, so there shouldn't be any 'lag'.

We've gone through this before when figuring out the formula for it. I can't remember it off the top of my head, but it counted both the number of wins and participation, which is why if there are members who have the same number of wins (34, 34, and 34) they'll still be arranged according to participation - it's not a tie.
omelet
Posts: 416
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12/29/2009 1:47:24 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 12/29/2009 1:10:32 PM, Volkov wrote:
At 12/29/2009 1:05:18 PM, omelet wrote:
The entire leaderboard is strictly done by number of wins.

You'll note some discrepancies - this is because leader board ranking is not always fully updated, while number of wins/losses/etc is.

No, that's wrong. The leaderboard is a mix of the number of wins as well as participation. It is automatically updated as far as I've seen, so there shouldn't be any 'lag'.

We've gone through this before when figuring out the formula for it. I can't remember it off the top of my head, but it counted both the number of wins and participation, which is why if there are members who have the same number of wins (34, 34, and 34) they'll still be arranged according to participation - it's not a tie.
It doesn't update everyone at the same time, and it doesn't update immediately.

To test this out earlier, I found a recent debate that was close. It was 14-7 in koopin's favor against someone else. Before voting, I noted that his percentile was 98.25%, and he had 20 wins and 9 losses. I then proceeded to make it 14-14, and I rechecked his stats. He still had 98.25% win ratio, though he now had a tie, 9 losses, and 19 wins.

There are many instances where someone with much higher participation is ranked the same as someone with less participation when they have the same number of wins. For instance, at the time of writing this, "thecategorical" and "gusgusthegreat" have the same percentile on the leaderboard, 89.80. gusgusthegreat has 4 debates, all 4 of which he won. Thecategorical participates at a markedly higher rate, having 12 debates, 4 wins, 6 losses, and 2 ties. However, due to lag in updating the rankings, "mdal" is ranked 90.29 even with much lower participation, at 6 debates, 4 wins, 2 losses.

Let's check the numbers for these same three debaters a day or two from now.
Volkov
Posts: 9,765
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12/29/2009 1:50:45 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
All I know is that this formula that was thrown around awhile has still stayed true until this day, for any instance:

At 6/6/2009 11:47:04 PM, Volkov wrote:
Current formula used:
Legend: W - Wins; L - Losses; T - Ties; TOT - Total Debates; WR - Win ratio; PNT - Points;
PCT - Percentile


(TOT - T) x WR = PNT ---> PCT

I found this out while there was nothing on television. I have yet to find a situation on the leaderboard where it isn't compatable. Let me demonstrate.

Top 3:

beem0r: 119 W, 18 L, 1 T, 138 TOT, 86.86% WR, 100.00 PCT
(138 - 1) x 0.8686 = 118.9982 PNT

L-M: 115 W, 24 L, 5 T, 144 TOT, 82.73% WR, 99.97 PCT
(144 - 5) x 0.8273 = 114.9947 PNT

Kleptin: 110 W, 8 L, 2 T, 120 TOT, 93.22% WR, 99.93 PCT
(120 - 2) x 0.9322 = 109.9996

Same Percentile, Different Win Ratio & Number of debates completed:


Sweatingjojo: 16 W, 16 L, 2 T, 34 TOT, 50.00% WR, 98.21 PCT
(34 - 2) x 0.5000 = 16

Daxitarian: 16 W, 4 L, 1 T, 21 TOT, 80.00% WR, 98.21 PCT
(21 - 1) x 0.8000 = 16

Percentiles just above and below 98.21 (16 PNT):


Above
rwebberc: 16 W, 2 L, 0 T, 18 TOT, 88.89% WR, 98.24 PCT
(18 - 0) x 0.8889 = 16.0002 PNT

Below
Pricetag: 16 W, 3 L, 1 T, 20 TOT, 84.21% WR, 98.11 PCT
(16 - 1) x 0.8421 = 12.6315

Minutest difference possible between two percentiles:


I-am-a-panada: 16 W, 20 L, 4 T, 40 TOT, 44.44% WR, 98.04 PCT
(40 - 4) x 0.4444 = 15.9984 PNT

zakkuchan: 15 W, 2 L, 0 T, 17 TOT, 88.24% WR, 98.01 PCT
(15 - 0) x 0.8824 = 15.0008 PNT


All you do is translate the PNT into a percentile score, and there you have it. That is how it works, and you can sample any random segment of the leader board and the formula will work.

http://www.debate.org...
omelet
Posts: 416
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12/29/2009 2:07:24 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
Ah, it seems that is correct.

Of course, that's mathematically equivalent to sorting just by number of wins, since WR is [W / (TOT-T)]. The disparity is explained by this system, though, due to WR being rounded imperfectly.

For example, mdal who I mentioned earlier, has 4 wins and 2 losses. This makes his win ratio 66.6666666...%
Along with both others I listed, he should have a value of 6 * 0.666666... = 4
Unfortunately, the ratio is not that accurate - it is 66.67. This leads to him having a slightly higher number than the other two, along with all other members who have a 66.67% WR and 4 wins.

There is still the issue of lag I mentioned earlier. It's possible that all percentiles are recalculated at the same time, but it's clear that they're not recalculated instantly. It is probably done once daily at some dead point in the night when the server isn't likely to be too bogged down.
Volkov
Posts: 9,765
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12/29/2009 2:13:24 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 12/29/2009 2:07:24 PM, omelet wrote:
There is still the issue of lag I mentioned earlier. It's possible that all percentiles are recalculated at the same time, but it's clear that they're not recalculated instantly. It is probably done once daily at some dead point in the night when the server isn't likely to be too bogged down.

That's a possibility, though I remember when someone (I think Usaf?) purposely vote-bombed the leaderboard in order to manipulate the results, and the results came up fairly quickly (according to him). So it might be when these individual changes occur, they might update quickly - though that would be fairly odd.
omelet
Posts: 416
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12/29/2009 2:25:09 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 12/29/2009 2:13:24 PM, Volkov wrote:
At 12/29/2009 2:07:24 PM, omelet wrote:
There is still the issue of lag I mentioned earlier. It's possible that all percentiles are recalculated at the same time, but it's clear that they're not recalculated instantly. It is probably done once daily at some dead point in the night when the server isn't likely to be too bogged down.

That's a possibility, though I remember when someone (I think Usaf?) purposely vote-bombed the leaderboard in order to manipulate the results, and the results came up fairly quickly (according to him). So it might be when these individual changes occur, they might update quickly - though that would be fairly odd.

It could be done a lot more frequently than daily. Perhaps hourly. I know it doesn't update immediately, though. For instance, Mangani currently has 31 wins 10 losses and 0.7561 ratio,a value of 31.0001, but he's behind PoeJoe, 30 wins 8 losses, 0.7895 ratio, a value of 30.001. Likely, Mangani recently got another win, and his percentile just hasn't been updated yet (he's currently tied with another 30-win debater and is below PoeJoe).
omelet
Posts: 416
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12/29/2009 3:25:28 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
When I've got more time, maybe I'll do a series of tests to figure that out. That wont be until after new years, though.