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the elo calculation

rross
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8/28/2013 8:34:50 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
My understanding was that elo was this:

W = winner's original ELO
L = loser's original ELO
D = change in ELO

D = 100*(W+9L)/10W

And there is a 25 point instigator advantage (meaning the instigator gets +25 and the contender gets -25).

So in the recent team debate, both teams started at 2000, team X instigated and lost.

Team Y gained 75 points (as they should, from the calculation)

Team X should have lost 75 points, but instead it lost 121 points.

How does that work?

http://www.debate.org...
http://www.debate.org...
rross
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8/28/2013 9:23:55 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
I'm guessing it used team y's score post debate (instead of predebate) to calculate team x and then subtracted instead of added 25 to the instigator.

If this is a systematic error then possibly everyone's elo is wrong. More likely my understanding of the calculation is off. ..
bladerunner060
Posts: 7,126
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8/29/2013 12:30:47 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
Is the formula listed somewhere? Does a K-factor influence the rating?
Assistant moderator to airmax1227. PM me with any questions or concerns!
Ore_Ele
Posts: 25,980
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10/29/2013 11:18:14 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/28/2013 8:34:50 PM, rross wrote:
My understanding was that elo was this:

W = winner's original ELO
L = loser's original ELO
D = change in ELO

D = 100*(W+9L)/10W

And there is a 25 point instigator advantage (meaning the instigator gets +25 and the contender gets -25).

So in the recent team debate, both teams started at 2000, team X instigated and lost.

Team Y gained 75 points (as they should, from the calculation)

Team X should have lost 75 points, but instead it lost 121 points.

How does that work?

http://www.debate.org...
http://www.debate.org...

I will forward this to our tech guy in Juggle. While that is the mathematical equation I created and provided to Juggle. I did not code the website to make sure the math lined up. I did make an Excel macro that allowed me to calculate all the ELOs on the site prior to Juggle integrating it.
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
YYW
Posts: 36,242
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10/29/2013 11:20:43 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 10/29/2013 11:18:14 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 8/28/2013 8:34:50 PM, rross wrote:
My understanding was that elo was this:

W = winner's original ELO
L = loser's original ELO
D = change in ELO

D = 100*(W+9L)/10W

And there is a 25 point instigator advantage (meaning the instigator gets +25 and the contender gets -25).

So in the recent team debate, both teams started at 2000, team X instigated and lost.

Team Y gained 75 points (as they should, from the calculation)

Team X should have lost 75 points, but instead it lost 121 points.

How does that work?

http://www.debate.org...
http://www.debate.org...

I will forward this to our tech guy in Juggle. While that is the mathematical equation I created and provided to Juggle. I did not code the website to make sure the math lined up. I did make an Excel macro that allowed me to calculate all the ELOs on the site prior to Juggle integrating it.

I hope they paid you for that.
Ore_Ele
Posts: 25,980
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10/29/2013 11:25:00 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 10/29/2013 11:20:43 PM, YYW wrote:
At 10/29/2013 11:18:14 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 8/28/2013 8:34:50 PM, rross wrote:
My understanding was that elo was this:

W = winner's original ELO
L = loser's original ELO
D = change in ELO

D = 100*(W+9L)/10W

And there is a 25 point instigator advantage (meaning the instigator gets +25 and the contender gets -25).

So in the recent team debate, both teams started at 2000, team X instigated and lost.

Team Y gained 75 points (as they should, from the calculation)

Team X should have lost 75 points, but instead it lost 121 points.

How does that work?

http://www.debate.org...
http://www.debate.org...

I will forward this to our tech guy in Juggle. While that is the mathematical equation I created and provided to Juggle. I did not code the website to make sure the math lined up. I did make an Excel macro that allowed me to calculate all the ELOs on the site prior to Juggle integrating it.

I hope they paid you for that.

lol...
...
...
*crying*
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
YYW
Posts: 36,242
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10/29/2013 11:28:41 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 10/29/2013 11:25:00 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 10/29/2013 11:20:43 PM, YYW wrote:
At 10/29/2013 11:18:14 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 8/28/2013 8:34:50 PM, rross wrote:
My understanding was that elo was this:

W = winner's original ELO
L = loser's original ELO
D = change in ELO

D = 100*(W+9L)/10W

And there is a 25 point instigator advantage (meaning the instigator gets +25 and the contender gets -25).

So in the recent team debate, both teams started at 2000, team X instigated and lost.

Team Y gained 75 points (as they should, from the calculation)

Team X should have lost 75 points, but instead it lost 121 points.

How does that work?

http://www.debate.org...
http://www.debate.org...

I will forward this to our tech guy in Juggle. While that is the mathematical equation I created and provided to Juggle. I did not code the website to make sure the math lined up. I did make an Excel macro that allowed me to calculate all the ELOs on the site prior to Juggle integrating it.

I hope they paid you for that.

lol...
...
...
*crying*

Not even a consulting fee?
Ore_Ele
Posts: 25,980
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10/29/2013 11:31:57 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 10/29/2013 11:28:41 PM, YYW wrote:
At 10/29/2013 11:25:00 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 10/29/2013 11:20:43 PM, YYW wrote:
At 10/29/2013 11:18:14 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 8/28/2013 8:34:50 PM, rross wrote:
My understanding was that elo was this:

W = winner's original ELO
L = loser's original ELO
D = change in ELO

D = 100*(W+9L)/10W

And there is a 25 point instigator advantage (meaning the instigator gets +25 and the contender gets -25).

So in the recent team debate, both teams started at 2000, team X instigated and lost.

Team Y gained 75 points (as they should, from the calculation)

Team X should have lost 75 points, but instead it lost 121 points.

How does that work?

http://www.debate.org...
http://www.debate.org...

I will forward this to our tech guy in Juggle. While that is the mathematical equation I created and provided to Juggle. I did not code the website to make sure the math lined up. I did make an Excel macro that allowed me to calculate all the ELOs on the site prior to Juggle integrating it.

I hope they paid you for that.

lol...
...
...
*crying*

Not even a consulting fee?

No, none of the stuff I do, have done, and probably will ever do on DDO has been for money.
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
YYW
Posts: 36,242
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10/29/2013 11:33:06 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 10/29/2013 11:31:57 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 10/29/2013 11:28:41 PM, YYW wrote:
At 10/29/2013 11:25:00 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 10/29/2013 11:20:43 PM, YYW wrote:
At 10/29/2013 11:18:14 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 8/28/2013 8:34:50 PM, rross wrote:
My understanding was that elo was this:

W = winner's original ELO
L = loser's original ELO
D = change in ELO

D = 100*(W+9L)/10W

And there is a 25 point instigator advantage (meaning the instigator gets +25 and the contender gets -25).

So in the recent team debate, both teams started at 2000, team X instigated and lost.

Team Y gained 75 points (as they should, from the calculation)

Team X should have lost 75 points, but instead it lost 121 points.

How does that work?

http://www.debate.org...
http://www.debate.org...

I will forward this to our tech guy in Juggle. While that is the mathematical equation I created and provided to Juggle. I did not code the website to make sure the math lined up. I did make an Excel macro that allowed me to calculate all the ELOs on the site prior to Juggle integrating it.

I hope they paid you for that.

lol...
...
...
*crying*

Not even a consulting fee?

No, none of the stuff I do, have done, and probably will ever do on DDO has been for money.

Y u be so nice like that?
Ore_Ele
Posts: 25,980
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10/29/2013 11:35:00 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 10/29/2013 11:33:06 PM, YYW wrote:
At 10/29/2013 11:31:57 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 10/29/2013 11:28:41 PM, YYW wrote:
At 10/29/2013 11:25:00 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 10/29/2013 11:20:43 PM, YYW wrote:
At 10/29/2013 11:18:14 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 8/28/2013 8:34:50 PM, rross wrote:
My understanding was that elo was this:

W = winner's original ELO
L = loser's original ELO
D = change in ELO

D = 100*(W+9L)/10W

And there is a 25 point instigator advantage (meaning the instigator gets +25 and the contender gets -25).

So in the recent team debate, both teams started at 2000, team X instigated and lost.

Team Y gained 75 points (as they should, from the calculation)

Team X should have lost 75 points, but instead it lost 121 points.

How does that work?

http://www.debate.org...
http://www.debate.org...

I will forward this to our tech guy in Juggle. While that is the mathematical equation I created and provided to Juggle. I did not code the website to make sure the math lined up. I did make an Excel macro that allowed me to calculate all the ELOs on the site prior to Juggle integrating it.

I hope they paid you for that.

lol...
...
...
*crying*

Not even a consulting fee?

No, none of the stuff I do, have done, and probably will ever do on DDO has been for money.

Y u be so nice like that?

Because I enjoy it. Don't worry, I'm seeing a therapist about it.
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
YYW
Posts: 36,242
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10/29/2013 11:38:27 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 10/29/2013 11:35:00 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 10/29/2013 11:33:06 PM, YYW wrote:
At 10/29/2013 11:31:57 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 10/29/2013 11:28:41 PM, YYW wrote:
At 10/29/2013 11:25:00 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 10/29/2013 11:20:43 PM, YYW wrote:
At 10/29/2013 11:18:14 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 8/28/2013 8:34:50 PM, rross wrote:
My understanding was that elo was this:

W = winner's original ELO
L = loser's original ELO
D = change in ELO

D = 100*(W+9L)/10W

And there is a 25 point instigator advantage (meaning the instigator gets +25 and the contender gets -25).

So in the recent team debate, both teams started at 2000, team X instigated and lost.

Team Y gained 75 points (as they should, from the calculation)

Team X should have lost 75 points, but instead it lost 121 points.

How does that work?

http://www.debate.org...
http://www.debate.org...

I will forward this to our tech guy in Juggle. While that is the mathematical equation I created and provided to Juggle. I did not code the website to make sure the math lined up. I did make an Excel macro that allowed me to calculate all the ELOs on the site prior to Juggle integrating it.

I hope they paid you for that.

lol...
...
...
*crying*

Not even a consulting fee?

No, none of the stuff I do, have done, and probably will ever do on DDO has been for money.

Y u be so nice like that?

Because I enjoy it.

We love you too, Ore-Ele.

Don't worry, I'm seeing a therapist about it.

*breathing returns to normal*
rross
Posts: 2,772
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12/29/2013 3:39:54 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/28/2013 8:34:50 PM, rross wrote:
My understanding was that elo was this:

W = winner's original ELO
L = loser's original ELO
D = change in ELO

D = 100*(W+9L)/10W

And there is a 25 point instigator advantage (meaning the instigator gets +25 and the contender gets -25).

So in the recent team debate, both teams started at 2000, team X instigated and lost.

Team Y gained 75 points (as they should, from the calculation)

Team X should have lost 75 points, but instead it lost 121 points.

How does that work?

http://www.debate.org...
http://www.debate.org...

So in the second team debate, the original scores were team X = 1879, team Y= 2075. Team Y instigated and lost. According to the formula,

D = 100*(W+9L)/10W = 109

So with the instigator advantage, team Y should lose 84 points, and team X should gain 84 points.

Instead, team Y lost 112 points, and team X gained 66 points.

And so after two debates, where the teams have won one each, both scores are below 2000. That can't be right.
Ore_Ele
Posts: 25,980
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12/29/2013 3:58:36 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
It hasn't been fixed yet. The juggle employee that put it in is no longer with juggle, so things have halted at the moment.
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
rross
Posts: 2,772
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12/29/2013 4:23:44 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/29/2013 3:58:36 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
It hasn't been fixed yet. The juggle employee that put it in is no longer with juggle, so things have halted at the moment.

No worries. It doesn't matter at all: there's just something about numbers. I think of these periodic elo readings kind of like a ship's log. Maybe a pattern will emerge.
RoyLatham
Posts: 4,488
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12/29/2013 11:36:18 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
I'm pretty sure the Elo calculation is using the Elo scores at the end of the debate rather than the beginning. I used to have a dozen or more open debates from more than two years ago. That was back when "the voting period does not end" was the default option. My Elo score could drop 25 points right after I won a debate, and it would fluctuate when a had no current debate pending. The only reason I could think of was that the Elo scores of the debaters in the old debates were changing. They have now closed all the ancient debates, and the day-to-day fluctuations have ceased.

The scores at the start of the debate should be used.
TUF
Posts: 21,297
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12/30/2013 1:08:42 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/29/2013 3:58:36 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
It hasn't been fixed yet. The juggle employee that put it in is no longer with juggle, so things have halted at the moment.

<make tuf or larz DDO developers />
"I've got to go and grab a shirt" ~ Airmax1227
Ore_Ele
Posts: 25,980
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12/30/2013 1:10:29 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/30/2013 1:08:42 AM, TUF wrote:
At 12/29/2013 3:58:36 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
It hasn't been fixed yet. The juggle employee that put it in is no longer with juggle, so things have halted at the moment.

<make tuf or larz DDO developers />

Holidays have really put things on a stop. Once we get past New Years we'll be able to pick things back up and try to get them rolling again.
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
9spaceking
Posts: 4,213
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4/18/2014 5:07:27 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
So, if
"D = 100*(W+9L)/10W

And there is a 25 point instigator advantage (meaning the instigator gets +25 and the contender gets -25)."
And the instigator was, say a new account with 2000 elo, and the person who accepted was Mikal, (who has a massive 8,133 elo). However, let's assume this new account is extremely versatile in debating and somehow defeated Mikal, then the equation would be

D=100*(2000+73197)/20000
D=375.985
and the new account would gain a 25 point advantage with Mikal losing 25 points.

so the new account now has 2396, and Mikal now only has 8108. Am I correct?
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Ore_Ele
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4/18/2014 5:13:19 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/18/2014 5:07:27 PM, 9spaceking wrote:
So, if
"D = 100*(W+9L)/10W

And there is a 25 point instigator advantage (meaning the instigator gets +25 and the contender gets -25)."
And the instigator was, say a new account with 2000 elo, and the person who accepted was Mikal, (who has a massive 8,133 elo). However, let's assume this new account is extremely versatile in debating and somehow defeated Mikal, then the equation would be

D=100*(2000+73197)/20000
D=375.985
and the new account would gain a 25 point advantage with Mikal losing 25 points.

so the new account now has 2396, and Mikal now only has 8108. Am I correct?

D means "dealta" or change. So you basically have a change of 376 that BOTH sides see. Since the new guy won, his change is positive while Mikal's would be negative. The Instigator Adjustment is done seperately of this and the Instigator gains another 25 and Mikal loses another 25. So both sides see a 401 point change.
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
Intrepid
Posts: 372
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4/18/2014 5:22:59 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/28/2013 8:34:50 PM, rross wrote:
My understanding was that elo was this:

W = winner's original ELO
L = loser's original ELO
D = change in ELO

D = 100*(W+9L)/10W

And there is a 25 point instigator advantage (meaning the instigator gets +25 and the contender gets -25).

So in the recent team debate, both teams started at 2000, team X instigated and lost.

Team Y gained 75 points (as they should, from the calculation)

Team X should have lost 75 points, but instead it lost 121 points.

How does that work?

http://www.debate.org...
http://www.debate.org...

The first instigated debate that I won I gained about 120 ELO
Intrepid
Posts: 372
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4/18/2014 5:25:00 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/18/2014 5:17:12 PM, Sswdwm wrote:
Why does the instigator get an advantage?

Try instigating debates. They are significantly harder to win.
Sswdwm
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4/18/2014 5:25:38 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/18/2014 5:25:00 PM, Intrepid wrote:
At 4/18/2014 5:17:12 PM, Sswdwm wrote:
Why does the instigator get an advantage?

Try instigating debates. They are significantly harder to win.

Instigate means I create the debate, right?
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Intrepid
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4/18/2014 5:27:02 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/18/2014 5:25:38 PM, Sswdwm wrote:
At 4/18/2014 5:25:00 PM, Intrepid wrote:
At 4/18/2014 5:17:12 PM, Sswdwm wrote:
Why does the instigator get an advantage?

Try instigating debates. They are significantly harder to win.

Instigate means I create the debate, right?

Si senor

You will be more likely to get debaters who will be far less likely to forfeit and will actually present arguments.

This, as opposed to accepting a debate then the noob forfeiting all rounds. Plus, it incentives users to instigate debates and not forfeit them.
bluesteel
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4/18/2014 5:40:27 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/18/2014 5:25:00 PM, Intrepid wrote:
At 4/18/2014 5:17:12 PM, Sswdwm wrote:
Why does the instigator get an advantage?

Try instigating debates. They are significantly harder to win.

I don't agree. Now that you can pre-select your opponent, it's a lot easier. It was "hard" to win as instigator under the old system only if you had to leave open challenges, so you never knew if you'd get a n00b or danielle/roy picking up your debate.

Supposedly, the contender penalty exists to discourage n00b sniping and the instigator advantage exists because it is harder to win as instigator. But 25 points is a huge swing.

If mikal were to debate roy again and win, Mikal would gain 120 points if he had chosen to instigate and only 70 points if he had chosen to let roy instigate. That's a huge difference. Instigating almost doubles the points mikal would receive from beating the second best debater on the site.

Put another way, instigating -- alone -- is worth 30% as much as beating the second best debater on the site. One would think that beating the second best debater should be worth a lot more points than merely instigating. But it's not.

I know that at least in the recent mikal/roy debate, roy insisted on instigating. The enormous instigator advantage creates this strange incentive to insist on instigating even when the debate is pre-arranged. For a pre-arranged debate, none of the concerns exist that motivated the instigator advantager/contender penalty -- both sides have taken equal risk in agreeing to the debate beforehand and neither one is engaging in n00b sniping. Yet whoever insists on instigating the debate is likely to get double the points for winning or only half the number of points deducted for losing. Does this seem fair?

imo, the formula needs to be tweaked. I'm not opposed to an investigator advantage/contender penalty, but I think it's way too large under the current system. 5 points seems more appropriate.
You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into - Jonathan Swift (paraphrase)
bluesteel
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4/18/2014 5:44:41 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
More specifically:

The instigator advantage/contender penalty fail under the current system, in which many of the top debaters on the site pre-arrange their match-ups [either in the forums or by instigating a challenge that is impossible to accept and selecting their opponent from the comments section]. Such arrangements eliminate the risk from instigating and unnecessarily penalize the person who gets stuck being contender.
You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into - Jonathan Swift (paraphrase)
bluesteel
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4/18/2014 5:50:50 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Also, this has always bothered me.

The formula for ELO is: D = 100*(W+9L)/10W

But if you're actually calculating it please use: D = 10*(1+9L/W).
You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into - Jonathan Swift (paraphrase)
Ore_Ele
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4/18/2014 5:55:41 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/18/2014 5:50:50 PM, bluesteel wrote:
Also, this has always bothered me.

The formula for ELO is: D = 100*(W+9L)/10W

But if you're actually calculating it please use: D = 10*(1+9L/W).

You mean D = 10*(W+9L)/W

The W in the numerator doesn't drop out.
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
Ore_Ele
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4/18/2014 5:57:42 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/18/2014 5:55:41 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 4/18/2014 5:50:50 PM, bluesteel wrote:
Also, this has always bothered me.

The formula for ELO is: D = 100*(W+9L)/10W

But if you're actually calculating it please use: D = 10*(1+9L/W).

You mean D = 10*(W+9L)/W

The W in the numerator doesn't drop out.

And that is only because of how the formula was formed. The (W+9L)/10W is the main equation and the 100 was slapped on the front merely to effect the size. We could change the 100 to a 3.14 and we'd still see all the same rankings as now, just the numbers would be smaller. Mikal, rather than being over 8,000 would be at the top with over 2,700.
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
bluesteel
Posts: 12,301
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4/18/2014 5:57:49 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/18/2014 5:55:41 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 4/18/2014 5:50:50 PM, bluesteel wrote:
Also, this has always bothered me.

The formula for ELO is: D = 100*(W+9L)/10W

But if you're actually calculating it please use: D = 10*(1+9L/W).

You mean D = 10*(W+9L)/W

The W in the numerator doesn't drop out.

Yes it does....If you distributed the W....

10*(W/W + 9L/W) = 10*(1+9L/W)
You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into - Jonathan Swift (paraphrase)