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Obvious Votebomb.

donald.keller
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9/4/2013 9:57:16 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
The Votebombs obvious to people who read the debate, but not obvious enough to be reported.

http://www.debate.org...'

The person voting gave the guy S&G because I wrote Plagerized and not Plagiarized. That was the only misspell he had against me.

He give the guy conduct because I accidentally called the person "he" instead of "she"... Even though the guy literally FF'd R2. and Plagiarized his whole R3 argument.

But worst, is that he gave the guy Convincing Arguments even though all 221 words from the guys argument was plagiarized. I brought up how it was plagiarized, too. That, and the guy dropped everyone one of my arguments.

When you look at the debate, and look at the vote, you KNOW it's a votebomb.
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rross
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9/4/2013 12:04:23 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
You're right - it was a protest vote against your rude, sexist, and aggressive manner towards a new member on this site. As far as I know, there are about three real women here apart from me. I'd like there to be more. So yes, it would be nice when a woman starts, if we could avoid bullying her at least for her first debate.

I disliked your behavior in several ways:
1. You referred to her as "he" and when I pointed it out you continued to do so.

2. You aggressively accused her of plagiarism even though she provided a source and her actually did not in any way try to pretend those words were hers.

3. You said her entire argument was plagiarized and this was simply untrue.

4. It was her first debate, she was unsure of the method. You could have won on merit without these aggressive, underhanded tricks. So why didn't you?
imabench
Posts: 21,230
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9/4/2013 12:08:50 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/4/2013 12:04:23 PM, rross wrote:
You're right - it was a protest vote against your rude, sexist, and aggressive manner towards a new member on this site.

Dude ive done lots worse stuff to new members then what Donald did in that debate... Sh*t I dont even see anything out of the ordinary in that debate

As far as I know, there are about three real women here apart from me. I'd like there to be more. So yes, it would be nice when a woman starts, if we could avoid bullying her at least for her first debate.

Thats not a good enough reason to vote against donald though

I disliked your behavior in several ways:
1. You referred to her as "he" and when I pointed it out you continued to do so.

Its a typo, big deal....

2. You aggressively accused her of plagiarism even though she provided a source and her actually did not in any way try to pretend those words were hers.

Copy-pasting an argument from a source onto a debate is still plagiarism, the point of sources is to provide evidence that support your OWN arguments, not take it from someone else.....

3. You said her entire argument was plagiarized and this was simply untrue.

It kinda is.

4. It was her first debate, she was unsure of the method. You could have won on merit without these aggressive, underhanded tricks. So why didn't you?

Because why not?
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wrichcirw
Posts: 11,196
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9/4/2013 12:12:49 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/4/2013 12:04:23 PM, rross wrote:
You're right - it was a protest vote against your rude, sexist, and aggressive manner towards a new member on this site. As far as I know, there are about three real women here apart from me. I'd like there to be more. So yes, it would be nice when a woman starts, if we could avoid bullying her at least for her first debate.

I disliked your behavior in several ways:
1. You referred to her as "he" and when I pointed it out you continued to do so.

2. You aggressively accused her of plagiarism even though she provided a source and her actually did not in any way try to pretend those words were hers.

3. You said her entire argument was plagiarized and this was simply untrue.

4. It was her first debate, she was unsure of the method. You could have won on merit without these aggressive, underhanded tricks. So why didn't you?

Dear lord. This is turning into a jihad, isn't it?
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?
rross
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9/4/2013 12:15:43 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/4/2013 12:08:50 PM, imabench wrote:
At 9/4/2013 12:04:23 PM, rross wrote:
You're right - it was a protest vote against your rude, sexist, and aggressive manner towards a new member on this site.

Dude ive done lots worse stuff to new members then what Donald did in that debate...

I know.

As far as I know, there are about three real women here apart from me. I'd like there to be more. So yes, it would be nice when a woman starts, if we could avoid bullying her at least for her first debate.

Thats not a good enough reason to vote against donald though

Lolwut?

I disliked your behavior in several ways:
1. You referred to her as "he" and when I pointed it out you continued to do so.

Its a typo, big deal....

It's not a typo.

2. You aggressively accused her of plagiarism even though she provided a source and her actually did not in any way try to pretend those words were hers.

Copy-pasting an argument from a source onto a debate is still plagiarism, the point of sources is to provide evidence that support your OWN arguments, not take it from someone else.....

No plagiarism is not acknowledging your source.

3. You said her entire argument was plagiarized and this was simply untrue.

It kinda is.

4. It was her first debate, she was unsure of the method. You could have won on merit without these aggressive, underhanded tricks. So why didn't you?

Because why not?
imabench
Posts: 21,230
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9/4/2013 12:19:13 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/4/2013 12:15:43 PM, rross wrote:
At 9/4/2013 12:08:50 PM, imabench wrote:
At 9/4/2013 12:04:23 PM, rross wrote:
You're right - it was a protest vote against your rude, sexist, and aggressive manner towards a new member on this site.

Dude ive done lots worse stuff to new members then what Donald did in that debate...

I know.

So then why have you only protested against DK instead of both of us?

As far as I know, there are about three real women here apart from me. I'd like there to be more. So yes, it would be nice when a woman starts, if we could avoid bullying her at least for her first debate.

Thats not a good enough reason to vote against donald though

Lolwut?

You cant vote against donald just because hes debating a woman.

2. You aggressively accused her of plagiarism even though she provided a source and her actually did not in any way try to pretend those words were hers.

Copy-pasting an argument from a source onto a debate is still plagiarism, the point of sources is to provide evidence that support your OWN arguments, not take it from someone else.....

No plagiarism is not acknowledging your source.

Not around here it is..... If someone copy pasts text from a source as the majority of their argument, then thats classified as plagiarism and warrants a full forfeit.
Kevin24018 : "He's just so mean it makes me want to ball up my fists and stamp on the ground"
Geogeer: "Nobody is dumb enough to become my protege."

7/14/16 = The Presidency Dies

DDO: THE MOVIE = http://www.debate.org...
http://www.debate.org...

VP of DDO from Dec 14th 2014 to Jan 1st 2015
rross
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9/4/2013 12:20:02 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/4/2013 12:12:49 PM, wrichcirw wrote:
At 9/4/2013 12:04:23 PM, rross wrote:
You're right - it was a protest vote against your rude, sexist, and aggressive manner towards a new member on this site..

4. It was her first debate, she was unsure of the method. You could have won on merit without these aggressive, underhanded tricks. So why didn't you?

Dear lord. This is turning into a jihad, isn't it?

If one vote makes me a terrorist then yes.
wrichcirw
Posts: 11,196
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9/4/2013 12:20:35 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/4/2013 12:08:50 PM, imabench wrote:
At 9/4/2013 12:04:23 PM, rross wrote:

3. You said her entire argument was plagiarized and this was simply untrue.

It kinda is.

I hate to point this out, but didn't you vote down someone citing plagiarism simply because they forgot to add quotation marks when citing a source? That sounds very similar to what occurred here, yet your position is a 180, and it's pretty obvious you are siding with the opposing side here because she's a stated woman. I'd have to conclude sexism here.

http://www.debate.org...

The original debate has since been removed for some reason. Regardless, this one still remains as a testament to the voting that occurred in it due to alleged plagiarism.

Personally, I'd probably just dock S&G due to readability (when is she quoting the source? When isn't she?)...she still attributes her arguments to the proper source. I would have done the same to Subutai in the other debate too, had I bothered to read it.
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?
wrichcirw
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9/4/2013 12:21:17 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/4/2013 12:20:02 PM, rross wrote:
At 9/4/2013 12:12:49 PM, wrichcirw wrote:
At 9/4/2013 12:04:23 PM, rross wrote:
You're right - it was a protest vote against your rude, sexist, and aggressive manner towards a new member on this site..

4. It was her first debate, she was unsure of the method. You could have won on merit without these aggressive, underhanded tricks. So why didn't you?

Dear lord. This is turning into a jihad, isn't it?

If one vote makes me a terrorist then yes.

It's not the vote but rather the rationale behind it, which I must say I have been exposed to ad nauseum, and I'll leave it at that.
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?
wrichcirw
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9/4/2013 12:27:48 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
I mean, I'm going to say this again, as I'm sure I've said this in private numerous times:

This is a debating website. Debating is an adversarial venue. Women typically/traditionally have had little exposure to formal adversarial venues like sports, and warfare. I'm not saying that women are not capable of it...far from it, I think women are eminently capable, and IMHO you're a great example.

However, statistically speaking (since we are indeed going into numerical accountability here), there are more than likely going to be fewer women than men here, and IMHO a lot of that deals with the adversarial nature of debating.
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?
rross
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9/4/2013 12:28:22 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/4/2013 12:21:17 PM, wrichcirw wrote:
At 9/4/2013 12:20:02 PM, rross wrote:
At 9/4/2013 12:12:49 PM, wrichcirw wrote:

Dear lord. This is turn

It's not the vote but rather the rationale behind it, which I must say I have been exposed to ad nauseum, and I'll leave it at that.

Really? You're happy with just the ad hominem attack? You're not going to take issue with my actual content? Up to you, I suppose.
wrichcirw
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9/4/2013 12:36:02 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/4/2013 12:28:22 PM, rross wrote:
At 9/4/2013 12:21:17 PM, wrichcirw wrote:
At 9/4/2013 12:20:02 PM, rross wrote:
At 9/4/2013 12:12:49 PM, wrichcirw wrote:

Dear lord. This is turn

It's not the vote but rather the rationale behind it, which I must say I have been exposed to ad nauseum, and I'll leave it at that.

Really? You're happy with just the ad hominem attack? You're not going to take issue with my actual content? Up to you, I suppose.

I do not see any ad hominem attack. DK saw that his opponent had a male picture as an avatar, and concluded his opponent was male.

The rationale I am talking about is your "protest vote against [DK's] rude, sexist, and aggressive manner," which I'm fairly certain you know where I stand when it comes to you making sexist charges at this point. IMHO you've lost a lot of credibility in my eyes on this particular subject. This case is IMHO an absolutely clear-cut case where you are taking this over and beyond any rational or reasonable perspective.

I may be mistaken. I could be wrong. I'd like to be because typically I don't find a lot of reason to be terse with you, although we've certainly had our fair share of bickering. However, I simply do not see what you are seeing here regarding any sexism, and thus must conclude that if there is any sexism here, it is displayed by you and not by DK.
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?
Mysterious_Stranger
Posts: 1,562
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9/4/2013 12:38:34 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Also the fact that he was debating a woman makes no difference at all, If you are totally against the bullying of new members you should be votebombing all of these kinds of debates regardless of the victims gender.
Turn around, go back.
Ragnar
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9/4/2013 12:40:59 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/4/2013 9:57:16 AM, donald.keller wrote:
The Votebombs obvious to people who read the debate, but not obvious enough to be reported.

Airmax has a group of people who do vote reviews when one is not obvious. Click report vote, and it'll get sorted out. Besides if it's worth starting a thread about, of it's worth the decreased effort of clicking report.

Also I believe this was a protest vote, when you will clearly win anyway. It doesn't actually matter. However I notice no correction to to the sex issue inside the debate... But I could be biased, I refer to cross dressers by what's on their avatar.
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rross
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9/4/2013 12:41:11 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
@wrichcirw. Subutai is an experienced debater who should know better. He was also seemingly intentionally passing off others' words as his own. I voted sources against him and only mentioned plagiarism when he came after me in the comments claiming that it was completely appropriate to do what he did.

I don't think Mori is guilty of plagiarism here. The accusation in the debate is a cheap trick. Look for yourself.
wrichcirw
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9/4/2013 12:46:50 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
I will also state that you've proven me wrong plenty of times in the past, but in this particular case, I do not see myself being mistaken.
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?
wrichcirw
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9/4/2013 12:49:55 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/4/2013 12:41:11 PM, rross wrote:
@wrichcirw. Subutai is an experienced debater who should know better. He was also seemingly intentionally passing off others' words as his own. I voted sources against him and only mentioned plagiarism when he came after me in the comments claiming that it was completely appropriate to do what he did.

I don't think Mori is guilty of plagiarism here. The accusation in the debate is a cheap trick. Look for yourself.

I remember reading the relevant portions of the debate, and I remember reading Subutai's astonishment that he was being charged with plagiarism.

If memory serves, he italicized the sourced portions, and then cited the source immediately afterward. He simply forgot to put the sourced portions in quotes. I'm guilty of that plenty myself. We're not writing term papers or PhD dissertations here.

I read this entire debate and just put down my RFD. I see almost the exact same issues here as I did in the subutai debate.
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?
rross
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9/4/2013 12:49:58 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/4/2013 12:36:02 PM, wrichcirw wrote:
At 9/4/2013 12:28:22 PM, rross wrote:
At 9/4/2013 12:21:17 PM, wrichcirw wrote:

I do not see any ad hominem attack. DK saw that his opponent had a male picture as an avatar, and concluded his opponent was male. ..

Yes, but I pointed it out to him in the debate and he said "whoops my mistake" and then continued to do it. And he referred to us both as male in this thread. I don't care if you label it sexist or not. I think it is. It's certainly rude and aggressive.
wrichcirw
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9/4/2013 12:53:03 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/4/2013 12:49:58 PM, rross wrote:
At 9/4/2013 12:36:02 PM, wrichcirw wrote:
At 9/4/2013 12:28:22 PM, rross wrote:
At 9/4/2013 12:21:17 PM, wrichcirw wrote:

I do not see any ad hominem attack. DK saw that his opponent had a male picture as an avatar, and concluded his opponent was male. ..


Yes, but I pointed it out to him in the debate and he said "whoops my mistake" and then continued to do it. And he referred to us both as male in this thread. I don't care if you label it sexist or not. I think it is. It's certainly rude and aggressive.

In your case, I'll agree with you (although let's be frank, there's nothing in your name that would immediately suggest you're a woman, and the comments section in the debate do not make it at all clear what your gender is). In the case of DK's opponent, I am much more hesitant, because his opponent had a male avatar.
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?
rross
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9/4/2013 12:57:18 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
wrichcirw: yes, I'm happy to believe that Subutai's plagiarism was unintended. It was not in italics, though. He didn't in any way separate the copied text from his own words, if any of the words were his. Mori made a clear separation. That's the difference.
donald.keller
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9/4/2013 12:58:49 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/4/2013 12:40:59 PM, Ragnar wrote:
At 9/4/2013 9:57:16 AM, donald.keller wrote:
The Votebombs obvious to people who read the debate, but not obvious enough to be reported.

Airmax has a group of people who do vote reviews when one is not obvious. Click report vote, and it'll get sorted out. Besides if it's worth starting a thread about, of it's worth the decreased effort of clicking report.

Also I believe this was a protest vote, when you will clearly win anyway. It doesn't actually matter. However I notice no correction to to the sex issue inside the debate... But I could be biased, I refer to cross dressers by what's on their avatar.

I wasn't aware that Airmax had a team that did that. That's really unique, more site just look at the votebomb and leave without actually examining the issue. That's really cool, thanks :)
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wrichcirw
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9/4/2013 1:05:36 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/4/2013 12:41:11 PM, rross wrote:
@wrichcirw. Subutai is an experienced debater who should know better.

I'd hate to point this out too, but whenever you make a statement like this, you tend to hold the "experienced debater" to an absolutely impossible standard. I still remember the TPP debate Raisor had with Larz. I have no idea how much of the nearly 100 pages of sources that were relevant to your RFD you read, but the accusation you lobbed against Raisor was something that 99.9% of DDO debaters would not pass, with the 0.1% consisting of you, and only you.

I mean, you were correct in your charge, so no one could say it was a votebomb. Still, you cited how a source within a source was incorrectly cited by the source Raisor used, and then decided to destroy Raisor's credibility based upon this oversight. I remember being impressed you looked into the sources with that much detail, but I know that I'd never pass that standard myself, and I tend to highly prize quality sources in a debate.
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?
wrichcirw
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9/4/2013 1:06:38 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/4/2013 12:57:18 PM, rross wrote:
wrichcirw: yes, I'm happy to believe that Subutai's plagiarism was unintended. It was not in italics, though. He didn't in any way separate the copied text from his own words, if any of the words were his. Mori made a clear separation. That's the difference.

I remember there being a clear distinction. He did the copy and paste, immediately cited the source, and then re-initiated his argumentation.
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?
rross
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9/4/2013 1:08:23 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/4/2013 12:38:34 PM, Mysterious_Stranger wrote:
Also the fact that he was debating a woman makes no difference at all, If you are totally against the bullying of new members you should be votebombing all of these kinds of debates regardless of the victims gender.

Really? And should I be having sex with women too in the interests of equality?

My point is - you're allowed to have personal preferences. It's OK for me to restrict my sexual activity to one man, and it's ok for me to have an interest in women debaters here when there's so few of them.

I do vote and have opinions on debates where there are only men too. And recently I defended wrichcirw here from the bullying of another man. So I really don't see the problem.
rross
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9/4/2013 1:19:22 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/4/2013 1:06:38 PM, wrichcirw wrote:

I remember there being a clear distinction. He did the copy and paste, immediately cited the source, and then re-initiated his argumentation.

That's not how I remember it at all.

About raisor. Yes I did hold him to a higher standard I suppose, yes. In that I believed he was capable of appreciating and avoiding an error like that. But maybe my vote was too harsh and it was his opponent's job to pick up stuff like that.
wrichcirw
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9/4/2013 1:25:23 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
sigh. After thinking about this some more, I'm now ambivalent to your complaint. I can see how if someone does point out a mistake, yet the other party repeatedly makes this mistake, how that could be annoying.

I'm willing to give DK the benefit of the doubt because it's quite reasonable to think that his opponent was a male given the avatar.

I swear there is a wrinkle in my face for every single argument of this nature. :/
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?