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Should the Weekly Stupid be allowed

daytonanerd
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9/13/2013 10:38:32 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
To be posted in the DDO section of the forums?

Airmax and I are going to have a debate about it, but I want to get the community's input on the issue.
#FeeltheFreezerBern
airmax1227
Posts: 13,241
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9/13/2013 10:43:04 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Since it's a somewhat controversial issue (even though I personally like the WS, even with some of the material I'm not a huge fan of) a simple compromise was allowing the show to continue but asking Bench to not post it to the DDO forums... I think this compromise has worked out well.
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airmax1227
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9/13/2013 10:45:56 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
I'm not really sure why this is a big deal... People can watch the WS, it isn't being censored, and we don't have to project some of the negative aspects to new and potential members in the DDO forums... so really everyone wins. I'm not sure why it's a problem, but it's apparently a big deal to Daytona...

So if anyone has an opinion on it feel free to share.
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proglib
Posts: 391
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9/13/2013 10:50:28 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/13/2013 10:45:56 PM, airmax1227 wrote:
I'm not really sure why this is a big deal... People can watch the WS, it isn't being censored, and we don't have to project some of the negative aspects to new and potential members in the DDO forums... so really everyone wins. I'm not sure why it's a problem, but it's apparently a big deal to Daytona...

So if anyone has an opinion on it feel free to share.

Good compromise, IMHO.

The show picks on people based on the tastes of a few members. Better to put it in Miscellaneous, or perhaps Entertainment, but not in the section that contains discussions of DDO dos and don'ts.

Banning it would be offensive, IMHO. Making it less of a sore point was a wise move.
"I would remind you that extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice.* And let me remind you also that moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue." Barry Goldwater
*Except in a democracy it might lose you an election.

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TUF
Posts: 21,309
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9/14/2013 5:38:00 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
Since the show is directed at calling people stupid it is probably in juggles best interest to have such a compromise.
"I've got to go and grab a shirt" ~ Airmax1227
drafterman
Posts: 18,870
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9/14/2013 7:19:19 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/13/2013 10:38:32 PM, daytonanerd wrote:
To be posted in the DDO section of the forums?

Airmax and I are going to have a debate about it, but I want to see what arguments other people can make for me.
cybertron1998
Posts: 5,818
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9/14/2013 9:54:11 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/13/2013 10:45:56 PM, airmax1227 wrote:
I'm not really sure why this is a big deal... People can watch the WS, it isn't being censored, and we don't have to project some of the negative aspects to new and potential members in the DDO forums... so really everyone wins. I'm not sure why it's a problem, but it's apparently a big deal to Daytona...

So if anyone has an opinion on it feel free to share.

Daytona is part of the WS council...this is strange
Epsilon: There are so many stories where some brave hero decides to give their life to save the day, and because of their sacrifice, the good guys win, the survivors all cheer, and everybody lives happily ever after. But the hero... never gets to see that ending. They'll never know if their sacrifice actually made a difference. They'll never know if the day was really saved. In the end, they just have to have faith.
YYW
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9/14/2013 10:14:35 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/13/2013 10:45:56 PM, airmax1227 wrote:
I'm not really sure why this is a big deal... People can watch the WS, it isn't being censored, and we don't have to project some of the negative aspects to new and potential members in the DDO forums... so really everyone wins. I'm not sure why it's a problem, but it's apparently a big deal to Daytona...

So if anyone has an opinion on it feel free to share.

If it's not a big deal, then why keep the WS off of the DDO column of the forum? How are the controversial aspects of the WS mitigated by relegating the WS to the MISC forum?
Tsar of DDO
imabench
Posts: 21,219
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9/14/2013 11:24:25 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
Ok lets get a few things straight

1) I did not put anyone up to this at all

2) I dont call PEOPLE stupid, I call their STATEMENTS stupid...... Only when they appear on the show five, six, seven different times do I start calling the people themsevles stupid.

3) I have many reasons both for having the show air in the misc section and for wanting to move it back to the DDO section

4) The WS has had its fair share of drama and causing flame wars (mostly because a few wusses failed to adhere to the warning at the beginning of every show where those who are easily butthurt shouldnt watch the show) and mitigating it to a forum that gets a lot less traffic removes a lot of potential for a flame war to happen.....

5) most people have seen how I get in flame wars so I dont need to elaborate on why its best for that to be limited as much as possible

6) Seeing as how the amount of traffic that the weekly stupid gets is down 65% since the show first aired, I do periodically push for Airmax to let me move the show back to the main forum for the sake of bumping up viewership. At the rate we're going we may soon only start getting 30 viewers a week and thats not even worth making the show, which will lead to its cancellation.
Kevin24018 : "He's just so mean it makes me want to ball up my fists and stamp on the ground"
Geogeer: "Nobody is dumb enough to become my protege."

7/14/16 = The Presidency Dies

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TheHitchslap
Posts: 1,231
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9/14/2013 11:56:06 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/14/2013 11:24:25 AM, imabench wrote:
Ok lets get a few things straight

1) I did not put anyone up to this at all

2) I dont call PEOPLE stupid, I call their STATEMENTS stupid...... Only when they appear on the show five, six, seven different times do I start calling the people themsevles stupid.

3) I have many reasons both for having the show air in the misc section and for wanting to move it back to the DDO section

4) The WS has had its fair share of drama and causing flame wars (mostly because a few wusses failed to adhere to the warning at the beginning of every show where those who are easily butthurt shouldnt watch the show) and mitigating it to a forum that gets a lot less traffic removes a lot of potential for a flame war to happen.....

5) most people have seen how I get in flame wars so I dont need to elaborate on why its best for that to be limited as much as possible

6) Seeing as how the amount of traffic that the weekly stupid gets is down 65% since the show first aired, I do periodically push for Airmax to let me move the show back to the main forum for the sake of bumping up viewership. At the rate we're going we may soon only start getting 30 viewers a week and thats not even worth making the show, which will lead to its cancellation.
^^
http://nooooooooooooooo.com...
Thank you for voting!
imabench
Posts: 21,219
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9/14/2013 12:41:42 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/14/2013 11:56:06 AM, TheHitchslap wrote:
At 9/14/2013 11:24:25 AM, imabench wrote:

6) Seeing as how the amount of traffic that the weekly stupid gets is down 65% since the show first aired, I do periodically push for Airmax to let me move the show back to the main forum for the sake of bumping up viewership. At the rate we're going we may soon only start getting 30 viewers a week and thats not even worth making the show, which will lead to its cancellation.
^^
http://nooooooooooooooo.com...

Every episode from Season 1 and the first half of Season 2 pulled in 150 views easy, with Ep 2 Season 1 pulling in 250.

Episode 7 Season 2 only drew in 50 views.

You can do the math and see the problem.
Kevin24018 : "He's just so mean it makes me want to ball up my fists and stamp on the ground"
Geogeer: "Nobody is dumb enough to become my protege."

7/14/16 = The Presidency Dies

DDO: THE MOVIE = http://www.debate.org...
http://www.debate.org...

VP of DDO from Dec 14th 2014 to Jan 1st 2015
Mikal
Posts: 11,270
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9/14/2013 12:55:17 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
No reason it should be banned. If you were to claim that it promotes bad ethics, it would almost be illogical. It is just a prolonged video about stupid remarks. No different than I or anyone else calling a remark stupid in the forums. This is just a prolonged video about why he believes it is stupid. Whether he posted it on the forums or just on a private youtube channel it bears the same result.
imabench
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9/14/2013 12:56:28 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/14/2013 12:55:17 PM, Mikal wrote:
No reason it should be banned.

Its not about whether it should be banned, its about whether it should be allowed to air in the main DDO forum.

If you were to claim that it promotes bad ethics, it would almost be illogical. It is just a prolonged video about stupid remarks. No different than I or anyone else calling a remark stupid in the forums. This is just a prolonged video about why he believes it is stupid. Whether he posted it on the forums or just on a private youtube channel it bears the same result.
Kevin24018 : "He's just so mean it makes me want to ball up my fists and stamp on the ground"
Geogeer: "Nobody is dumb enough to become my protege."

7/14/16 = The Presidency Dies

DDO: THE MOVIE = http://www.debate.org...
http://www.debate.org...

VP of DDO from Dec 14th 2014 to Jan 1st 2015
Mikal
Posts: 11,270
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9/14/2013 12:58:51 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/14/2013 12:56:28 PM, imabench wrote:
At 9/14/2013 12:55:17 PM, Mikal wrote:
No reason it should be banned.

Its not about whether it should be banned, its about whether it should be allowed to air in the main DDO forum.

If you were to claim that it promotes bad ethics, it would almost be illogical. It is just a prolonged video about stupid remarks. No different than I or anyone else calling a remark stupid in the forums. This is just a prolonged video about why he believes it is stupid. Whether he posted it on the forums or just on a private youtube channel it bears the same result.

Same initial result. Wherever it is posted, it bears the same outcome. No idea why it would be a big deal to be posted on the main forum to begin with.
airmax1227
Posts: 13,241
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9/14/2013 1:02:55 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/14/2013 10:14:35 AM, YYW wrote:
At 9/13/2013 10:45:56 PM, airmax1227 wrote:
I'm not really sure why this is a big deal... People can watch the WS, it isn't being censored, and we don't have to project some of the negative aspects to new and potential members in the DDO forums... so really everyone wins. I'm not sure why it's a problem, but it's apparently a big deal to Daytona...

So if anyone has an opinion on it feel free to share.

If it's not a big deal, then why keep the WS off of the DDO column of the forum? How are the controversial aspects of the WS mitigated by relegating the WS to the MISC forum?

I mean that I don't think it's a big deal that it's in the misc forums since it is still available for anyone that wants to watch it. While I understand several members wanting it in the DDO forum section, I believe it's best that it remain in the misc section for several of the reasons already mentioned.

While the controversial aspects exist regardless of where it is posted, it keeps the results away from being displayed in the DDO forums. It is a catalyst for flame wars. It calls the things people say stupid (and sometimes the people themselves). It also may discourage new members and potential members.

A handful of members are also offended by it, so it's a reasonable compromise that it be posted in the misc forum rather than the DDO forum.
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airmax1227
Posts: 13,241
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9/14/2013 1:07:56 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/14/2013 12:55:17 PM, Mikal wrote:
No reason it should be banned. If you were to claim that it promotes bad ethics, it would almost be illogical. It is just a prolonged video about stupid remarks. No different than I or anyone else calling a remark stupid in the forums. This is just a prolonged video about why he believes it is stupid. Whether he posted it on the forums or just on a private youtube channel it bears the same result.

I'm not considering banning it, even if some members want it to be, so this isn't the issue. The issue is whether or not we want the drama caused by it to be in the DDO forum or in the misc forum. The issue is whether we want it to be something new and potential members see early and often when they come to this site.
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Mikal
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9/14/2013 1:12:18 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
I am totally lost, thought it was about the WS being banned. Never mind then, my point is mute.

To me personally idgaf where it is. Either way members will see it, and everyone already knows about it. If it is put there in a attempt to censor it from new members, I understand that as well.

Just was lost as to what the debate was about. Now at least I understand the outline more
airmax1227
Posts: 13,241
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9/14/2013 1:15:49 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/14/2013 12:58:51 PM, Mikal wrote:
At 9/14/2013 12:56:28 PM, imabench wrote:
At 9/14/2013 12:55:17 PM, Mikal wrote:
No reason it should be banned.

Its not about whether it should be banned, its about whether it should be allowed to air in the main DDO forum.

If you were to claim that it promotes bad ethics, it would almost be illogical. It is just a prolonged video about stupid remarks. No different than I or anyone else calling a remark stupid in the forums. This is just a prolonged video about why he believes it is stupid. Whether he posted it on the forums or just on a private youtube channel it bears the same result.


Same initial result. Wherever it is posted, it bears the same outcome. No idea why it would be a big deal to be posted on the main forum to begin with.

It's not the same result because the flame wars are in the misc forum and not the DDO forum. One forum is the sites main forum where new members ask questions about the site, site features are explained and potential members read threads to gain information on the site etc. The other forum is entirely different and can display a wider range of things from random threads about nothing, to member videos potentially causing flame wars. The later isn't ideal, but as I've said earlier, I don't want to censor Bench or discourage member creativity.

One of the nice things about the WS is that it resulted in several other members taking it upon themselves to create DDO related (or loosely related) shows posted to the site, and encouraging member creativity and user created content is good for the site. But while doing this we don't need to encourage members attacking each other in the main forum.
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airmax1227
Posts: 13,241
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9/14/2013 1:16:24 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/14/2013 1:12:18 PM, Mikal wrote:
I am totally lost, thought it was about the WS being banned. Never mind then, my point is mute.

To me personally idgaf where it is. Either way members will see it, and everyone already knows about it. If it is put there in a attempt to censor it from new members, I understand that as well.

Just was lost as to what the debate was about. Now at least I understand the outline more

ah ok... I guess there was a misunderstanding.
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Mysterious_Stranger
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9/14/2013 1:17:01 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
It would seem I have a noob question to be unleashed. But what in the world is the weekly stupid?
Turn around, go back.
airmax1227
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9/14/2013 1:19:23 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/14/2013 1:17:01 PM, Mysterious_Stranger wrote:
It would seem I have a noob question to be unleashed. But what in the world is the weekly stupid?

It's a show posted in the misc section... go to the 7th thread down in that forum for the newest episode
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wrichcirw
Posts: 11,196
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9/14/2013 2:09:05 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/13/2013 10:50:28 PM, proglib wrote:
At 9/13/2013 10:45:56 PM, airmax1227 wrote:
I'm not really sure why this is a big deal... People can watch the WS, it isn't being censored, and we don't have to project some of the negative aspects to new and potential members in the DDO forums... so really everyone wins. I'm not sure why it's a problem, but it's apparently a big deal to Daytona...

So if anyone has an opinion on it feel free to share.

Good compromise, IMHO.

The show picks on people based on the tastes of a few members. Better to put it in Miscellaneous, or perhaps Entertainment, but not in the section that contains discussions of DDO dos and don'ts.

Banning it would be offensive, IMHO. Making it less of a sore point was a wise move.

I've yet to read one of these, and I probably never will, but given the stated intent above, the less "official" the better.
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?
YYW
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9/14/2013 2:38:45 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/14/2013 1:02:55 PM, airmax1227 wrote:
At 9/14/2013 10:14:35 AM, YYW wrote:
At 9/13/2013 10:45:56 PM, airmax1227 wrote:
I'm not really sure why this is a big deal... People can watch the WS, it isn't being censored, and we don't have to project some of the negative aspects to new and potential members in the DDO forums... so really everyone wins. I'm not sure why it's a problem, but it's apparently a big deal to Daytona...

So if anyone has an opinion on it feel free to share.

If it's not a big deal, then why keep the WS off of the DDO column of the forum? How are the controversial aspects of the WS mitigated by relegating the WS to the MISC forum?

I mean that I don't think it's a big deal that it's in the misc forums since it is still available for anyone that wants to watch it. While I understand several members wanting it in the DDO forum section, I believe it's best that it remain in the misc section for several of the reasons already mentioned.

While the controversial aspects exist regardless of where it is posted, it keeps the results away from being displayed in the DDO forums. It is a catalyst for flame wars. It calls the things people say stupid (and sometimes the people themselves). It also may discourage new members and potential members.

A handful of members are also offended by it, so it's a reasonable compromise that it be posted in the misc forum rather than the DDO forum.

So, if member offense is what we're trying to mitigate, I fail to see how the show would be less offensive if it is in the main forum, or if it is in the misc forum. That the traffic differs between the main forum and the misc forum does not mean that the show is itself less offensive, only that fewer people are likely to see it, and therefore fewer people are likely to complain.

Even still, that members complain does not mean that the show should or should not be placed in any location based on the volume of traffic that location gets. Avoiding complaints -which is the only point I've seen made- is not a reason to govern the location of the show. If it is inappropriate, then ban it. If it's not, then leave it alone. I think that based on the fact that the show is still allowed on the forums, we can safely conclude that it's not inappropriate. So, the location of where it is posted seems to be a fairly arbitrary point, even if it is a compromise which may have the effect of reducing member complaints.

Now, let's talk about flame wars: being averse to flamewars is probably a good thing, because it's reasonable not to like or want to see a disproportionately high amount of member attacks on the forum. But, just because something may cause a conflict does not mean that it should be arbitrarily regulated so long as the show is not itself inappropriate. Again, if it becomes inappropriate, then certain measures must be taken -like removing the link to the show. But, if it's not inappropriate (and we agree that it isn't), then it shouldn't cause flame wars -and even if it does, the problem is those who participate in flamewars NOT what "ostensibly" (and I use that word purposefully) caused the flamewar to erupt because while the Weekly Stupid IS NOT inappropriate, in most cases flame wars are inappropriate. So, those members who flame one another -if the flame war rises to a level of inappropriateness- should be dealt with and NOT the weekly stupid (so long as it is not inappropriate).

If, however, the WS rises itself to a level of inappropriateness such that it is indistinguishable in substance from a flame war, that is another matter. I think based on the conversations you've had with Bench, he knows where the line is and what will happen if he crosses it. Right?
Tsar of DDO
airmax1227
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9/14/2013 3:06:09 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/14/2013 2:38:45 PM, YYW wrote:
At 9/14/2013 1:02:55 PM, airmax1227 wrote:
At 9/14/2013 10:14:35 AM, YYW wrote:
At 9/13/2013 10:45:56 PM, airmax1227 wrote:
I'm not really sure why this is a big deal... People can watch the WS, it isn't being censored, and we don't have to project some of the negative aspects to new and potential members in the DDO forums... so really everyone wins. I'm not sure why it's a problem, but it's apparently a big deal to Daytona...

So if anyone has an opinion on it feel free to share.

If it's not a big deal, then why keep the WS off of the DDO column of the forum? How are the controversial aspects of the WS mitigated by relegating the WS to the MISC forum?

I mean that I don't think it's a big deal that it's in the misc forums since it is still available for anyone that wants to watch it. While I understand several members wanting it in the DDO forum section, I believe it's best that it remain in the misc section for several of the reasons already mentioned.

While the controversial aspects exist regardless of where it is posted, it keeps the results away from being displayed in the DDO forums. It is a catalyst for flame wars. It calls the things people say stupid (and sometimes the people themselves). It also may discourage new members and potential members.

A handful of members are also offended by it, so it's a reasonable compromise that it be posted in the misc forum rather than the DDO forum.

So, if member offense is what we're trying to mitigate, I fail to see how the show would be less offensive if it is in the main forum, or if it is in the misc forum. That the traffic differs between the main forum and the misc forum does not mean that the show is itself less offensive, only that fewer people are likely to see it, and therefore fewer people are likely to complain.


I'm not trying to mitigate member offense, I'm trying to mitigate the prominence with which it is displayed and how it is perceived (or the potential for it to be viewed at all) by new and potential members. I'm not sure where this thing about fewer members complaining comes from, but it has nothing to do with the issue at all. Every member who wants to complain is free to do so and have 10 of their friends join them.

Even still, that members complain does not mean that the show should or should not be placed in any location based on the volume of traffic that location gets. Avoiding complaints -which is the only point I've seen made- is not a reason to govern the location of the show. If it is inappropriate, then ban it. If it's not, then leave it alone. I think that based on the fact that the show is still allowed on the forums, we can safely conclude that it's not inappropriate. So, the location of where it is posted seems to be a fairly arbitrary point, even if it is a compromise which may have the effect of reducing member complaints.


Like I said above it has nothing to do with members complaining (and again I have no idea what you are talking about). I'm sympathetic to members who are offended by it, which reflects its somewhat offensive nature, and thus worth keeping out of the DDO forums.

My goals have nothing to do with reducing member complaints. If members have a complaint I encourage them to contact me always.

Now, let's talk about flame wars: being averse to flamewars is probably a good thing, because it's reasonable not to like or want to see a disproportionately high amount of member attacks on the forum. But, just because something may cause a conflict does not mean that it should be arbitrarily regulated so long as the show is not itself inappropriate. Again, if it becomes inappropriate, then certain measures must be taken -like removing the link to the show. But, if it's not inappropriate (and we agree that it isn't), then it shouldn't cause flame wars -and even if it does, the problem is those who participate in flamewars NOT what "ostensibly" (and I use that word purposefully) caused the flamewar to erupt because while the Weekly Stupid IS NOT inappropriate, in most cases flame wars are inappropriate. So, those members who flame one another -if the flame war rises to a level of inappropriateness- should be dealt with and NOT the weekly stupid (so long as it is not inappropriate).


The show causes flame wars which are better located outside of the DDO forums. When these flame wars cross the line those members are made aware of it. But in general, it's best just to preempt the whole mess and keep them out of the DDO forums.

If, however, the WS rises itself to a level of inappropriateness such that it is indistinguishable in substance from a flame war, that is another matter. I think based on the conversations you've had with Bench, he knows where the line is and what will happen if he crosses it. Right?

Bench is aware of the site's standards. The nature of the show and what it often results in is better left outside of the DDO forums.
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proglib
Posts: 391
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9/15/2013 9:05:07 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/14/2013 3:06:09 PM, airmax1227 wrote:

Bench is aware of the site's standards. The nature of the show and what it often results in is better left outside of the DDO forums.

As far as I'm concerned this says it all. (And the prez said it several times, which is appropriate. Brown nosing unintended.:)

Teasing other members about their (sometimes*) ridiculous statements seems to me wholly in keeping with what goes on here at DDO. But it doesn't belong in the main place that noobs look for FAQs and the like--http://www.debate.org...

It is appropriate in Miscellaneous or Entertainment forums.
"I would remind you that extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice.* And let me remind you also that moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue." Barry Goldwater
*Except in a democracy it might lose you an election.

http://unitedwegovern.org...