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Vote moderation

airmax1227
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11/2/2013 5:49:38 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
In an effort to create a fair and efficient system of vote moderation I would like all concerned members to post their thoughts and ideas in this thread. If you have provided any ideas for how vote moderation should be done, please share them again here so that I can easily take all opinions into account.

Keep in mind that we are starting this entire effort entirely from scratch. There are no suggestions that wont be taken under consideration, and this will be all be based on the assumption that there is no current system that needs to be reformed. While the former system I employed was flawed, if we want to do something similar I'd like to begin from the ground up and work out every detail of it.

The current system of moderation exists only in that I record every vote reported, and delete the obvious VBs and record that decision for the members involved with the currently suspended commission that used to assist with voting moderation. If we would like to maintain a system that only deals with the worst votes while ignoring the others, this is a perfectly reasonable position. I however do not want to unilaterally decide what is and is not an "obviously terrible vote" (though I recognize it is usually obvious) but if this is what members would like, while we retain the former system where members could counter votes they disagreed with this is also a reasonable position.

Either way, I would like as many members that are willing to detail their thoughts on exactly how we should approach the issue of vote moderation so that we can employ a system that is the most fair for everyone and does not require me alone to make a decision on what should and shouldn't be considered a proper vote.
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Ore_Ele
Posts: 25,980
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11/2/2013 6:20:31 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Poor voting should be looked at, not as an offense or an attack, but as an unfamiliarity or lack of understanding. Most cases of poor voting, especially with new members can likely be solved by educating them on the difference between good votes and bad votes.

A stickied thread (and probably locked too) would work as a quick guide, though should not be considered to be the complete package. No more than a text book is a complete education. The largest single thing that can help new members become good voters is by letting them see good votes on their 3 debates that they have to do prior to being able to vote. Of course, that is more of a positive feed back loop that takes time to develop.

I don't think DDO is doing this anymore, but an automated PM when members first join that directs them to these things can be very helpful so that new members don't feel lost when they joined, or attacked for not knowing things.
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
bsh1
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11/2/2013 6:43:17 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Maybe a panel of individuals who are respected on DDO should make the decision. Maybe like a 9-person DDO Supreme Court. IDK...I know if it were my vote being called into question, I would like a chance to either amend my vote or to defend it before this panel or before whomever is making the call.

To that end, I think people should be notified before their votes are struck, not after, that there is some question as to the validity of the vote. This can give people a chance to defend their own vote, and feel as if their views were taken into account.

I agree that vote-pulling should not be unilateral; but I don't think all DDO members should be able to weigh in--it would be too chaotic. I think the person/people reporting the vote, the person that cast the vote, and the debaters involved should be able to air their thoughts before whomever is judging the vote's quality. These are the relevant parties, not all of DDO.

Anyway, I hope these suggestions count.
Live Long and Prosper

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UnopinionatedMoron
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11/2/2013 6:58:25 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/2/2013 6:20:31 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
Poor voting should be looked at, not as an offense or an attack, but as an unfamiliarity or lack of understanding.

All crimes are done out of ignorance, this is irrelevant to their identity as an offense.

Most cases of poor voting, especially with new members can likely be solved by educating them on the difference between good votes and bad votes.

There is no such thing as a good or bad vote only a valid or fallacious one. A fallacious one is disobeying the rules and regulations of voting and thus is a punishable offense.


A stickied thread (and probably locked too) would work as a quick guide, though should not be considered to be the complete package. No more than a text book is a complete education. The largest single thing that can help new members become good voters is by letting them see good votes on their 3 debates that they have to do prior to being able to vote. Of course, that is more of a positive feed back loop that takes time to develop.

This is an improvement to the forums, not the voting system itself.


I don't think DDO is doing this anymore, but an automated PM when members first join that directs them to these things can be very helpful so that new members don't feel lost when they joined, or attacked for not knowing things.

This is not an improvement to the voting system.
"I am stupid but this quote is not." - A genius
UnopinionatedMoron
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11/2/2013 7:02:48 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/2/2013 6:43:17 PM, bsh1 wrote:
Maybe a panel of individuals who are respected on DDO should make the decision. Maybe like a 9-person DDO Supreme Court. IDK...I know if it were my vote being called into question, I would like a chance to either amend my vote or to defend it before this panel or before whomever is making the call.

This will be bias to the debating style most common among those nine, it will not respect different varieties of debate or the ability to persuade the "average Joe" in arguments.

To that end, I think people should be notified before their votes are struck, not after, that there is some question as to the validity of the vote. This can give people a chance to defend their own vote, and feel as if their views were taken into account.

Why must one waste time contacting the perpetrator when they can prevent the end result without attending to its origin with mus less effort spent? Who would be responsible for PM'ing every single vote violator and what time limit would there be to change the vote?

I agree that vote-pulling should not be unilateral; but I don't think all DDO members should be able to weigh in--it would be too chaotic. I think the person/people reporting the vote, the person that cast the vote, and the debaters involved should be able to air their thoughts before whomever is judging the vote's quality. These are the relevant parties, not all of DDO.

Then you oppose the very concept of democracy and are a threat to any organised society you may ever live in.

Anyway, I hope these suggestions count.

Sorry, they don't.
"I am stupid but this quote is not." - A genius
Ore_Ele
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11/2/2013 7:07:07 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/2/2013 6:58:25 PM, UnopinionatedMoron wrote:
At 11/2/2013 6:20:31 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
Poor voting should be looked at, not as an offense or an attack, but as an unfamiliarity or lack of understanding.

All crimes are done out of ignorance, this is irrelevant to their identity as an offense.

First, that's not true. Most murderers are aware that murder is illegal. Second, I didn't say that it shouldn't be considered an offense (unless you are making a semantics error). I am address how they should be addressed.


Most cases of poor voting, especially with new members can likely be solved by educating them on the difference between good votes and bad votes.

There is no such thing as a good or bad vote only a valid or fallacious one. A fallacious one is disobeying the rules and regulations of voting and thus is a punishable offense.

A valid vote is a good vote and a bad vote is a fallacious one.



A stickied thread (and probably locked too) would work as a quick guide, though should not be considered to be the complete package. No more than a text book is a complete education. The largest single thing that can help new members become good voters is by letting them see good votes on their 3 debates that they have to do prior to being able to vote. Of course, that is more of a positive feed back loop that takes time to develop.

This is an improvement to the forums, not the voting system itself.

Actually it would improve the voting because it gives a quick and easy reference point to direct those that are, as you said, ignorant of the voting rules. It helps to address "ignorance" and so helps with voting.



I don't think DDO is doing this anymore, but an automated PM when members first join that directs them to these things can be very helpful so that new members don't feel lost when they joined, or attacked for not knowing things.

This is not an improvement to the voting system.

See previous line.
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
UnopinionatedMoron
Posts: 36
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11/2/2013 7:10:47 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/2/2013 7:07:07 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 11/2/2013 6:58:25 PM, UnopinionatedMoron wrote:
At 11/2/2013 6:20:31 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
Poor voting should be looked at, not as an offense or an attack, but as an unfamiliarity or lack of understanding.

All crimes are done out of ignorance, this is irrelevant to their identity as an offense.

First, that's not true. Most murderers are aware that murder is illegal. Second, I didn't say that it shouldn't be considered an offense (unless you are making a semantics error). I am address how they should be addressed.

Regardless of one's awareness of the crime, they were ignorant of how to avoid being caught. If they were not ignorant to how to be caught and were caught on purpose then they were ignorant of how incorrect a decision it was.



Most cases of poor voting, especially with new members can likely be solved by educating them on the difference between good votes and bad votes.

There is no such thing as a good or bad vote only a valid or fallacious one. A fallacious one is disobeying the rules and regulations of voting and thus is a punishable offense.

A valid vote is a good vote and a bad vote is a fallacious one.

You cannot put into words what can only be subjectively judged. It's like explaining the difference between good and bad sex to an asexual.



A stickied thread (and probably locked too) would work as a quick guide, though should not be considered to be the complete package. No more than a text book is a complete education. The largest single thing that can help new members become good voters is by letting them see good votes on their 3 debates that they have to do prior to being able to vote. Of course, that is more of a positive feed back loop that takes time to develop.

This is an improvement to the forums, not the voting system itself.

Actually it would improve the voting because it gives a quick and easy reference point to direct those that are, as you said, ignorant of the voting rules. It helps to address "ignorance" and so helps with voting.

See above.
"I am stupid but this quote is not." - A genius
Raisor
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11/2/2013 7:24:38 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
I feel like this is all an elaborate ruse concocted by the conservatives on this site to teach the DDO leftists the dangers of big government.
YYW
Posts: 36,243
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11/2/2013 7:30:27 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/2/2013 7:24:38 PM, Raisor wrote:
I feel like this is all an elaborate ruse concocted by the conservatives on this site to teach the DDO leftists the dangers of big government.

The very fact that I have the opinion I do would stand rather at odds with that theory.
ClassicRobert
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11/2/2013 8:14:17 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
As it was pointed out by multiple users in the thread that this topic was meant to address (http://www.debate.org...), there are a number of problems with vote moderation that is not based on the decisions of many DDO users. It puts an incredibly large amount of power (relative to DDO) in the hands of a few, and does nothing to solve the underlying problem, which is DDO's subpar voting culture.

This is why I propose a user based solution. Specifically, I would like to bring up the solution that Larstheloser created and implemented a few months ago, the removal of which led to him leaving DDO (hopefully only temporarily).

In his solution, he created an algorithm to put the debates most in need of votes and with the fewest forfeits on the front page. However, the best part about it was the vote ranking and the leader board he implemented. With his system, users could rate voter's votes on a scale of one to five or seven (I forget which), and then give the user feedback on the vote. While I was beta testing this system, along with a few other users, we found ourselves voting more and putting more detail into our votes, as it suddenly became more enjoyable. This system serves to fundamentally improve the voting culture on DDO, and it absolutely astonishes me that it was taken down.

I'll also add to it that his leader board actually meant something, as opposed to the current leader board, which is essentially equivalent to our percentile rankings. That is, it only measures quantity, not quality.

It is for these reasons that the VRB should be abolished, and we should rather focus on improving the voting culture itself, which could and should be done with Larstheloser's system.
Debate me: Economic decision theory should be adjusted to include higher-order preferences for non-normative purposes http://www.debate.org...

Do you really believe that? Or not? If you believe it, you should man up and defend it in a debate. -RoyLatham

My Pet Fish is such a Douche- NiamC

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bsh1
Posts: 27,503
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11/2/2013 8:15:14 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/2/2013 7:02:48 PM, UnopinionatedMoron wrote:
At 11/2/2013 6:43:17 PM, bsh1 wrote:
Maybe a panel of individuals who are respected on DDO should make the decision. Maybe like a 9-person DDO Supreme Court. IDK...I know if it were my vote being called into question, I would like a chance to either amend my vote or to defend it before this panel or before whomever is making the call.

This will be bias to the debating style most common among those nine, it will not respect different varieties of debate or the ability to persuade the "average Joe" in arguments.

Term limits on the panel as well as including people from a variety of debating styles and political viewpoints could obviate this problem.

To that end, I think people should be notified before their votes are struck, not after, that there is some question as to the validity of the vote. This can give people a chance to defend their own vote, and feel as if their views were taken into account.

Why must one waste time contacting the perpetrator when they can prevent the end result without attending to its origin with mus less effort spent? Who would be responsible for PM'ing every single vote violator and what time limit would there be to change the vote?

The timeframe is something the could be worked out. Frankly, if one of my votes were tossed out without consulting me I would feel annoyed. For those people that don't want to defend their votes, they wouldn't have to. But, for those of us that would like to air our views in a fair hearing, this would also enable us to do so.

I agree that vote-pulling should not be unilateral; but I don't think all DDO members should be able to weigh in--it would be too chaotic. I think the person/people reporting the vote, the person that cast the vote, and the debaters involved should be able to air their thoughts before whomever is judging the vote's quality. These are the relevant parties, not all of DDO.

Then you oppose the very concept of democracy and are a threat to any organised society you may ever live in.

This is a ridiculous assertion. In a trial, for example, not everyone in the U.S. is asked to vote on the guilt of a criminal. We have a jury to do so instead. Moreover, in a trial proceeding, only those with legal standing or relevance to the trial can bring the suit or testify within the case. I see no logical inconsistency with these exclusions and the notion of democracy.

Anyway, I hope these suggestions count.

Sorry, they don't.

I'll leave that to Airmax. Anyway, it's up to him regardless. If he rejects my suggestions after due thought, so be it.
Live Long and Prosper

I'm a Bish.


"Twilight isn't just about obtuse metaphors between cannibalism and premarital sex, it also teaches us the futility of hope." - Raisor

"[Bsh1] is the Guinan of DDO." - ButterCatX

Follow the DDOlympics
: http://www.debate.org...

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Ore_Ele
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11/2/2013 8:32:09 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/2/2013 8:14:17 PM, ClassicRobert wrote:
As it was pointed out by multiple users in the thread that this topic was meant to address (http://www.debate.org...), there are a number of problems with vote moderation that is not based on the decisions of many DDO users. It puts an incredibly large amount of power (relative to DDO) in the hands of a few, and does nothing to solve the underlying problem, which is DDO's subpar voting culture.

This is why I propose a user based solution. Specifically, I would like to bring up the solution that Larstheloser created and implemented a few months ago, the removal of which led to him leaving DDO (hopefully only temporarily).

In his solution, he created an algorithm to put the debates most in need of votes and with the fewest forfeits on the front page. However, the best part about it was the vote ranking and the leader board he implemented. With his system, users could rate voter's votes on a scale of one to five or seven (I forget which), and then give the user feedback on the vote. While I was beta testing this system, along with a few other users, we found ourselves voting more and putting more detail into our votes, as it suddenly became more enjoyable. This system serves to fundamentally improve the voting culture on DDO, and it absolutely astonishes me that it was taken down.

I won't go into why it was taken down, as that is a horse corpse that's been beaten enough, but it is a case where voters get feed back from their votes which does work as an incentive. This was similar to what I had suggested going back years by doing single thumbs up without thumbs down. Though really, any incentive would work. Though I would be skeptical about a positive and negative feedback with some members being highly aggravated by not being voted for (RM vs Danielle, lol) which allows people to be opened up to unjust negative feedback.


I'll also add to it that his leader board actually meant something, as opposed to the current leader board, which is essentially equivalent to our percentile rankings. That is, it only measures quantity, not quality.

The current leader board, from my understanding, is still in progress and that some depth is suppose to be brought to it. Though I have been out of the loop for that for a while.


It is for these reasons that the VRB should be abolished, and we should rather focus on improving the voting culture itself, which could and should be done with Larstheloser's system.
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
ClassicRobert
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11/2/2013 9:13:54 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/2/2013 8:32:09 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 11/2/2013 8:14:17 PM, ClassicRobert wrote:
As it was pointed out by multiple users in the thread that this topic was meant to address (http://www.debate.org...), there are a number of problems with vote moderation that is not based on the decisions of many DDO users. It puts an incredibly large amount of power (relative to DDO) in the hands of a few, and does nothing to solve the underlying problem, which is DDO's subpar voting culture.

This is why I propose a user based solution. Specifically, I would like to bring up the solution that Larstheloser created and implemented a few months ago, the removal of which led to him leaving DDO (hopefully only temporarily).

In his solution, he created an algorithm to put the debates most in need of votes and with the fewest forfeits on the front page. However, the best part about it was the vote ranking and the leader board he implemented. With his system, users could rate voter's votes on a scale of one to five or seven (I forget which), and then give the user feedback on the vote. While I was beta testing this system, along with a few other users, we found ourselves voting more and putting more detail into our votes, as it suddenly became more enjoyable. This system serves to fundamentally improve the voting culture on DDO, and it absolutely astonishes me that it was taken down.

I won't go into why it was taken down, as that is a horse corpse that's been beaten enough, but it is a case where voters get feed back from their votes which does work as an incentive. This was similar to what I had suggested going back years by doing single thumbs up without thumbs down. Though really, any incentive would work. Though I would be skeptical about a positive and negative feedback with some members being highly aggravated by not being voted for (RM vs Danielle, lol) which allows people to be opened up to unjust negative feedback.

Personally, I imagine the feedback being in the form of a drop down reply comments thread from the vote. Having a more open voting conversation will lead to a more positive voting culture.


I'll also add to it that his leader board actually meant something, as opposed to the current leader board, which is essentially equivalent to our percentile rankings. That is, it only measures quantity, not quality.

The current leader board, from my understanding, is still in progress and that some depth is suppose to be brought to it. Though I have been out of the loop for that for a while.


It is for these reasons that the VRB should be abolished, and we should rather focus on improving the voting culture itself, which could and should be done with Larstheloser's system.
Debate me: Economic decision theory should be adjusted to include higher-order preferences for non-normative purposes http://www.debate.org...

Do you really believe that? Or not? If you believe it, you should man up and defend it in a debate. -RoyLatham

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ClassicRobert
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11/2/2013 9:16:15 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
It should also be said that another way to improve the voting culture (in addition to the above mentioned solution) is to create a mobile app, with the added function of being able to download debates as offline PDFs and being able to annotate them from there. This will make voting and other DDO activity significantly more convenient to do.
Debate me: Economic decision theory should be adjusted to include higher-order preferences for non-normative purposes http://www.debate.org...

Do you really believe that? Or not? If you believe it, you should man up and defend it in a debate. -RoyLatham

My Pet Fish is such a Douche- NiamC

It's an app to meet friends and stuff, sort of like an adult club penguin- Thett3, describing Tinder
ClassicRobert
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11/2/2013 9:31:57 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/2/2013 9:30:53 PM, xXCryptoXx wrote:
Add hashtags to this site.

#addhashtags #hashtags4Christ #Airmax1227 #yolo

Get out.
Debate me: Economic decision theory should be adjusted to include higher-order preferences for non-normative purposes http://www.debate.org...

Do you really believe that? Or not? If you believe it, you should man up and defend it in a debate. -RoyLatham

My Pet Fish is such a Douche- NiamC

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ClassicRobert
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11/2/2013 9:33:17 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Anyway, to reiterate, vote moderation should not be done. Any change should be addressed at improving voting culture through user efforts, and above I have outlined some ways to improve said culture.
Debate me: Economic decision theory should be adjusted to include higher-order preferences for non-normative purposes http://www.debate.org...

Do you really believe that? Or not? If you believe it, you should man up and defend it in a debate. -RoyLatham

My Pet Fish is such a Douche- NiamC

It's an app to meet friends and stuff, sort of like an adult club penguin- Thett3, describing Tinder
xXCryptoXx
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11/2/2013 9:33:47 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/2/2013 9:31:57 PM, ClassicRobert wrote:
At 11/2/2013 9:30:53 PM, xXCryptoXx wrote:
Add hashtags to this site.

#addhashtags #hashtags4Christ #Airmax1227 #yolo

Get out.

NEEDZ MAOR HASTAGZ1!11!!!!
Nolite Timere
xXCryptoXx
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11/2/2013 9:34:29 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/2/2013 6:43:17 PM, bsh1 wrote:
Maybe a panel of individuals who are respected on DDO should make the decision. Maybe like a 9-person DDO Supreme Court. IDK...I know if it were my vote being called into question, I would like a chance to either amend my vote or to defend it before this panel or before whomever is making the call.

To that end, I think people should be notified before their votes are struck, not after, that there is some question as to the validity of the vote. This can give people a chance to defend their own vote, and feel as if their views were taken into account.

I agree that vote-pulling should not be unilateral; but I don't think all DDO members should be able to weigh in--it would be too chaotic. I think the person/people reporting the vote, the person that cast the vote, and the debaters involved should be able to air their thoughts before whomever is judging the vote's quality. These are the relevant parties, not all of DDO.

Anyway, I hope these suggestions count.

I like this.
Nolite Timere
Ore_Ele
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11/2/2013 9:40:02 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/2/2013 9:16:15 PM, ClassicRobert wrote:
It should also be said that another way to improve the voting culture (in addition to the above mentioned solution) is to create a mobile app, with the added function of being able to download debates as offline PDFs and being able to annotate them from there. This will make voting and other DDO activity significantly more convenient to do.

I could a mobile version being helpful for things like mafia, opinions, polls, and forums. But I always have a hard time with walls of text on my phone's screen.
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
ClassicRobert
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11/2/2013 9:52:02 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/2/2013 9:40:02 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 11/2/2013 9:16:15 PM, ClassicRobert wrote:
It should also be said that another way to improve the voting culture (in addition to the above mentioned solution) is to create a mobile app, with the added function of being able to download debates as offline PDFs and being able to annotate them from there. This will make voting and other DDO activity significantly more convenient to do.

I could a mobile version being helpful for things like mafia, opinions, polls, and forums. But I always have a hard time with walls of text on my phone's screen.

Personally, I do, but to each his own. I would love to be able to download debates so I could read them anytime, anywhere. I envision myself being able to highlight parts of the text, which I could click to go from highlighted part to highlighted part to aid in making more detailed RFD's on the go. The same thing would go with the ability to mark up the debate.

This leads to another totally awesome idea: annotation votes. Instead of just a paragraph in the RFD box, you can click on the vote and it will take you to location specific comments by the voter.
Debate me: Economic decision theory should be adjusted to include higher-order preferences for non-normative purposes http://www.debate.org...

Do you really believe that? Or not? If you believe it, you should man up and defend it in a debate. -RoyLatham

My Pet Fish is such a Douche- NiamC

It's an app to meet friends and stuff, sort of like an adult club penguin- Thett3, describing Tinder
Ore_Ele
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11/2/2013 9:57:59 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/2/2013 9:52:02 PM, ClassicRobert wrote:
At 11/2/2013 9:40:02 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 11/2/2013 9:16:15 PM, ClassicRobert wrote:
It should also be said that another way to improve the voting culture (in addition to the above mentioned solution) is to create a mobile app, with the added function of being able to download debates as offline PDFs and being able to annotate them from there. This will make voting and other DDO activity significantly more convenient to do.

I could a mobile version being helpful for things like mafia, opinions, polls, and forums. But I always have a hard time with walls of text on my phone's screen.

Personally, I do, but to each his own. I would love to be able to download debates so I could read them anytime, anywhere. I envision myself being able to highlight parts of the text, which I could click to go from highlighted part to highlighted part to aid in making more detailed RFD's on the go. The same thing would go with the ability to mark up the debate.

This leads to another totally awesome idea: annotation votes. Instead of just a paragraph in the RFD box, you can click on the vote and it will take you to location specific comments by the voter.

That is a great idea as a long term development. Though the intensity might be something not often used (which Juggle is not going to want to invest the time in something rarely used). Though downloadable debates and uploadable RFDs might be something that is not too hard.
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
bsh1
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11/2/2013 9:58:18 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/2/2013 9:34:29 PM, xXCryptoXx wrote:
At 11/2/2013 6:43:17 PM, bsh1 wrote:
Maybe a panel of individuals who are respected on DDO should make the decision. Maybe like a 9-person DDO Supreme Court. IDK...I know if it were my vote being called into question, I would like a chance to either amend my vote or to defend it before this panel or before whomever is making the call.

To that end, I think people should be notified before their votes are struck, not after, that there is some question as to the validity of the vote. This can give people a chance to defend their own vote, and feel as if their views were taken into account.

I agree that vote-pulling should not be unilateral; but I don't think all DDO members should be able to weigh in--it would be too chaotic. I think the person/people reporting the vote, the person that cast the vote, and the debaters involved should be able to air their thoughts before whomever is judging the vote's quality. These are the relevant parties, not all of DDO.

Anyway, I hope these suggestions count.

I like this.

Thank you.
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bsh1
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11/2/2013 10:00:35 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/2/2013 9:57:59 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 11/2/2013 9:52:02 PM, ClassicRobert wrote:
At 11/2/2013 9:40:02 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 11/2/2013 9:16:15 PM, ClassicRobert wrote:
It should also be said that another way to improve the voting culture (in addition to the above mentioned solution) is to create a mobile app, with the added function of being able to download debates as offline PDFs and being able to annotate them from there. This will make voting and other DDO activity significantly more convenient to do.

I could a mobile version being helpful for things like mafia, opinions, polls, and forums. But I always have a hard time with walls of text on my phone's screen.

Personally, I do, but to each his own. I would love to be able to download debates so I could read them anytime, anywhere. I envision myself being able to highlight parts of the text, which I could click to go from highlighted part to highlighted part to aid in making more detailed RFD's on the go. The same thing would go with the ability to mark up the debate.

This leads to another totally awesome idea: annotation votes. Instead of just a paragraph in the RFD box, you can click on the vote and it will take you to location specific comments by the voter.

That is a great idea as a long term development. Though the intensity might be something not often used (which Juggle is not going to want to invest the time in something rarely used). Though downloadable debates and uploadable RFDs might be something that is not too hard.

I don't know...I'd be willing to pay 1.99 for a DDO app on my iPhone just to feed my addiction. Juggle could earn some $ off it in that sense. Though free would, obviously, be better...
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Cermank
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11/2/2013 10:18:05 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Something to improve debate quality on the first page, since most of the time I set out to vote, I don't want to be mechanical and read through forfeits and noob debates. Something I suggested in the previous thread. ( and something kind of resembling the larz method, although I didn't know about the development, so I can't be completely sure) Basically debate with most favourites go to the first page.

Also, something where you can mark debates you want yo vote for later, so that you get an automatic notification once it ends.
ClassicRobert
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11/2/2013 10:27:03 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/2/2013 10:18:05 PM, Cermank wrote:
Something to improve debate quality on the first page, since most of the time I set out to vote, I don't want to be mechanical and read through forfeits and noob debates. Something I suggested in the previous thread. ( and something kind of resembling the larz method, although I didn't know about the development, so I can't be completely sure) Basically debate with most favourites go to the first page.

Also, something where you can mark debates you want yo vote for later, so that you get an automatic notification once it ends.

I second this.
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larztheloser
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11/2/2013 10:29:10 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
I've said it before and I shall say it again - all that is needed from a moderation perspective is a proper but through enforcement of the rules that ALREADY EXIST. Anything more than that is simply asking too much. What's the point of having rules against votebombing etc if they are only selectively enforced, as I've argued before is the status quo? And if the rules are wrong or need an update, how about we sit down and work out with absolute clarity what the rules should be, but I for one think the present rules are just fine. Airmax occasionally exercises discretionary powers, and does not exercise his powers when the site rules in fact require him to. If there is something wrong with the moderation system, it's that.

(I might add at this point that my beta tool was only taken down for half a day and still exists on the net, and will for the foreseeable future; its link was just arbitrarily moderated away from the forum without any justification).

But ClassicRobert et al are right. The voting culture is the problem with voting. Moderation does little to change that, rather it suppresses undesirable aspects of voting culture in an undesirable way, rather inefficiently. The more I think about it, the more I've realized that the system itself is the problem, and the voting culture that has built up around it.

Stay tuned ;)
bladerunner060
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11/3/2013 12:54:51 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
Improving voting culture is not something that anyone disagrees with. Nor is it something fundamentally incompatible with a moderation system such as the VRB.

I would love for people to take their voting seriously and treat it as something that is worth their effort. I like to think that's what I do, and I know that's what many folks do.

But no matter what we do, no matter how much we improve the culture, there will always be bad votes--there will be utter VBs, and there will be votes which insufficiently explain the points they have awarded.

The question is, are those votes something we think should be dealt with?

I think the answer is yes. The old system of VBing and CVBing and CCVBing ad infinitum had its flaws, not least of which was that it cost your vote to counter a vote which should never have happened in the first place. It also encouraged poor reasons for decision--it encouraged (or, if we take it as a true "system", required) votes not based on debate performance. I don't think that was "a good". I think it was "a bad".

Votes should be based on debate performance. They should include the reasons for the vote of each type of point, in such a way that the reasoning for the vote is unquestionable--not its validity, which people will always be quibbling over, but its existence.

When one side says "Con did better"--that's not the reason for the decision in any meaningful sense. It's the final judgment, and indistinguishible from the point itself. When someone says "Con did better by rebutting Pro's unsupported assertions with assertions backed by fact", that's the reason that Con did better, and the actual Reason For the Decision. When someone says "Con used sources", that's not the reason... the reason is "Con used sources, while Pro did not.

These are minimum standards, and they are not unreasonable.

If we improve voting culture while ignoring votes which are bad, we hurt ourselves (if only slightly), in that even allowing their existence is likely to foster more bad votes. It's the Broken Window Theory.

The old system was lawless--what was and was not a VB was endlessly hashed out in comments, forums, votes, and even sometimes debates. One had to hope that someone decided to deign to counter a vote that you felt was an obvious Vote Bomb. And it certainly did nothing to improve voting culture, I don't think, since it didn't, which is part of why we're having this discussion.

The new system of a VRB cut down on complaints, at least--now there was a place to take them, and a way to have them vetted. For obvious VBs, they could be quickly dispatched, freeing up the votes that might have otherwise been wasted on countering to actually vote on the merits of the debate.

There is a lot of angst over deletion--should the member be able to object before their vote is deleted, etc. For the vast majority of votes that are reported, there is a clear and obvious deficiency. The deficiency can be corrected by simple clarification, if we presume it to have been an honest vote. Having the vote deleted doesn't prevent this in the slightest. A new vote is simply cast. But the benefit is that until the new vote is cast, the deficient vote is no longer a problem. That presumes we think bad votes are a problem--I do. Deleting a questionable vote but allowing a member to revote fixes most problems: they can clarify if they honestly erred, or, if it was truly laziness that caused them to cast their vote badly in the first place, they can ignore it--and the problem is solved.

But what of votes that someone believes are already sufficiently explained? Well, those can be recast too--and I think that an appeals process should exist, where someone whose vote was deleted but who strongly feels it was sufficient can appeal.

But in the end, I see no problem with requiring an arguably sufficient vote to be clarified. It seems, to me, to only help in terms of ensuring that votes are of sufficient quality. Is it so bad to have a vote which is overly detailed? Is that something we are against?

Any vote which is deleted should have questions about them--answering those questions is not unreasonable, IMHO, and making those answers part of the "improved" RFD is not "a bad".

Fundamentally, deleting votes is a moderation ability and responsibility. We could petition Juggle for a different system, but in the meantime, airmax is the moderator and, as I like to often point out, moderation is separate and distinct from his duties as president--though, as he has both roles, there is of course some overlap. If we want to not have bad votes on the site, and I would argue that we should not want bad votes on the site, then the simplest solution is to delte those votes which are bad. Getting opinions on which votes to delete is a good thing--a thing above the technical minimum since, again, it's a moderation responsibility. It's a thing that helps the one who is actually responsible for the task ensure that he's making the best decision he can.

I stand by the idea of keeping the moderation process as private as the member wants--if a member wants to publicly complain, there's an entire forum section they can do so. They can make everything as public as they want--and I think it should be part of the process how the volunteers who offer their opinions respond to such publicity.

I stand, likewise, behind the basic implementation of the VRB. It's a group of volunteers--as a volunteer becomes less active, they would likely be removed. If a volunteer appears to be an idiot, or biased, their opinions will be respected the less for it. The opinions expressed have to be expressed, not to state the obvious, and stupid/biased/bad opinions are rather obviously that.

Electing VRB members is, IMHO, unlikely to be a good solution. What's the minimum size? What's the maximum size? How likely are members to actually participate, considering right now it's open to everybody and it's not as though we have a glut of volunteers.

That it's open to everybody is a good thing, I feel. If someone starts to think that they don't like the VRB's decisions, they can ask to join the group to see for themselves, and participate to influence what they want to influence.

It's been pointed out that VRB members shouldn't offer opinions on votes they've reported, and I think that's hogwash. There's no conflict of interest or inherent bias in noticing a vote that is bad and reporting it--though by reporting it, your opinion is already known, it's nonetheless just as unbiased as if it were presented to you in the VRB thread in the first place. Votes on a VRB memeber's debates are another thing entirely--but it's also obvious from the context, as all votes are reviewed by extract and in situ. Likewise, any debate where a VRB member has a vested interest (even as a voter themselves) is obvious from the context. I might suggest that it be an explicit rule that they make that possible conlfict clear.

As to the mechanics of the final decision, I think that's a legitimate functional question. Should it be based on votes, or general consensus? If the former, then I agree that, while I don't think a VRB member should have to be prohibited from expressing their opinion, I do think they should be prohibited from voting. If it's a "general consensus" system, then obviously they wouldn't be considered as part of the consensus but, again, could still offer their opinion.
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bladerunner060
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11/3/2013 12:55:42 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
For improving voter culture:

I suggested some time ago (not to toot my own horn) a Voting Boot Camp. A weekly thread of discussion for people who want to improve their votes, that could include "chronically bad" voters who might otherwise need their voting privileges removed for casting consistently insufficient RFDs. I think that might help in terms of overall quality--and isn't in conflict with continuing to enforce minimum standards.

As to encouraging more votes: fundamentally, voting does (and should) take effort. It will always be difficult to get internet people to expend effort on a consistent basis. It is, after all, like herding cats. I think there are many things that can be done to help encourage that, however, some of which have already been mentioned here. And none of which, I don't think, are in conflict with enforcing minimum standards.

I am of the opinion that a comprehensive voting guide needs to be made with all haste. Any vote which is found insufficient should (actually, must) be found to violate an explicit principle listed from that guide--which I do not believe will be a difficult task, though that is an appeal to statistics regarding the votes which have been submitted thus far.
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