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Questions About Forfeiting

chrumbelievable
Posts: 210
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11/4/2013 8:34:49 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
There has been a lot of talk around the site lately about somehow hiding or burying forfeited debates.

I have a few questions about forfeiting that will help me better understand exactly what action needs to be taken.

1) When is a forfeit acceptable, if ever?
2) How many forfeited rounds per debate are acceptable? Is this number based on forfeits per person, or total forfeits per debate?
3) Is the number of acceptable forfeited rounds dependent on the total number of rounds in the debate? For instance, is 2 forfeited rounds acceptable if the total number of rounds is 3, 4, 5, etc.?
4) Should a winner be automatically determined based on forfeits?
5) Should debates be ineligible for voting after a certain number of forfeits, or just buried within site navigation?

Thanks for your help!
ClassicRobert
Posts: 2,487
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11/4/2013 8:46:31 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/4/2013 8:34:49 AM, chrumbelievable wrote:
There has been a lot of talk around the site lately about somehow hiding or burying forfeited debates.

I have a few questions about forfeiting that will help me better understand exactly what action needs to be taken.

1) When is a forfeit acceptable, if ever?

If the debater who forfeits has argued every previous round, if the debater comes back the next round and argues, if the forfeits are not right next to each other in rounds, and if the number of forfeits is less than half the number of rounds in the debate.

2) How many forfeited rounds per debate are acceptable? Is this number based on forfeits per person, or total forfeits per debate?

Generally I would say less than half the number of rounds there are in a debate, but if I see a bunch of forfeits one after the next, I just close the window.

3) Is the number of acceptable forfeited rounds dependent on the total number of rounds in the debate? For instance, is 2 forfeited rounds acceptable if the total number of rounds is 3, 4, 5, etc.?

I would say only for 5 round debates are two forfeits acceptable, but see above.

4) Should a winner be automatically determined based on forfeits?

No, but at the end of the debate, a window should pop up showing the debaters where the unvoted/forfeit debate thread is.

5) Should debates be ineligible for voting after a certain number of forfeits, or just buried within site navigation?

See above. I will say that if debates are entirely won due to forfeiture, they should not be taken into account with the ELO calculations.

Thanks for your help!
Debate me: Economic decision theory should be adjusted to include higher-order preferences for non-normative purposes http://www.debate.org...

Do you really believe that? Or not? If you believe it, you should man up and defend it in a debate. -RoyLatham

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bladerunner060
Posts: 7,126
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11/4/2013 9:00:00 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/4/2013 8:34:49 AM, chrumbelievable wrote:
There has been a lot of talk around the site lately about somehow hiding or burying forfeited debates.

I have noticed what appears to be an increase in debates where new members are instigating relatively strange debates, getting them accepted by other new members, then both forfeiting. It's possible that the only thing that's changed is my noticing them, but it at least seems to be an uptick.

I have a few questions about forfeiting that will help me better understand exactly what action needs to be taken.

1) When is a forfeit acceptable, if ever?

In general, the only time a forfeit is "acceptable" (to me) is when it's due to site reasons or explained exigent circumstances. Things happen.

2) How many forfeited rounds per debate are acceptable? Is this number based on forfeits per person, or total forfeits per debate?

It is my standard practice and I believe the general rule that any forfeits lose conduct. When someone forfeits so many rounds that they do not post any argument, provided their opponent "showed up", they lose the debate by forfeit.

3) Is the number of acceptable forfeited rounds dependent on the total number of rounds in the debate? For instance, is 2 forfeited rounds acceptable if the total number of rounds is 3, 4, 5, etc.?

In a 5 round debate, 2 forfeits means you've failed to show up for almost half the debate. In general, I think one forfeit is more "forgivable" if one gives a good reason, but that beyond that is unfair to the opponent regardless of the number of rounds--though I suppose if we ever started having 10 round debates that opinion might change.

4) Should a winner be automatically determined based on forfeits?

I think it might be nice if two consecutive forfeits automatically closed the debate to voting and gave the win to the one who didn't forfeit. One forfeit can plausibly happen "by accident", or even due to a site problem, as rare as those are. Multiple forfeits are (at the risk of repeating myself) unfair to the opponent, and in general a waste of their time. If the second forfeit closed it out immediately, gave the win to the one who "showed up", and removed it from voting (putting it in post-voting), I think it would be nice.

5) Should debates be ineligible for voting after a certain number of forfeits, or just buried within site navigation?

The problem with forfeited debates from a voter perspective (to me) is when there's multiple on the first pages of the voting debates. I know when I go looking for debates to vote on, I start on the first page and go from there--since a forfeited debate is trivial to score, it almost feels like I'm wasting my time when I have to click on multiple debates that are all forfeits--particularly since I usually just start reading and THEN see the forfeiting. It might be nice to have any debate with more than one forfeit on either side be flagged, so you know before clicking on it that there's more than 1 forfeit.

Thanks for your help!
Assistant moderator to airmax1227. PM me with any questions or concerns!
bladerunner060
Posts: 7,126
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11/4/2013 9:04:13 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/4/2013 8:46:31 AM, ClassicRobert wrote:

5) Should debates be ineligible for voting after a certain number of forfeits, or just buried within site navigation?

See above. I will say that if debates are entirely won due to forfeiture, they should not be taken into account with the ELO calculations.

ClassicRobert, wouldn't that cause the unscrupulous to simply start forfeiting rounds if they realize they might not win? R1 is acceptance, and then the instigator posts R2 and the contender realizes "crap, I don't have a good rebuttal", and they just forfeit the remaining rounds. I mean, a solution might be to have it only affect the loser's Elo, but then that seems unfair to the winner for having their time wasted, doesn't it?
Assistant moderator to airmax1227. PM me with any questions or concerns!
ClassicRobert
Posts: 2,487
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11/4/2013 9:26:28 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/4/2013 9:04:13 AM, bladerunner060 wrote:
At 11/4/2013 8:46:31 AM, ClassicRobert wrote:

5) Should debates be ineligible for voting after a certain number of forfeits, or just buried within site navigation?

See above. I will say that if debates are entirely won due to forfeiture, they should not be taken into account with the ELO calculations.

ClassicRobert, wouldn't that cause the unscrupulous to simply start forfeiting rounds if they realize they might not win? R1 is acceptance, and then the instigator posts R2 and the contender realizes "crap, I don't have a good rebuttal", and they just forfeit the remaining rounds. I mean, a solution might be to have it only affect the loser's Elo, but then that seems unfair to the winner for having their time wasted, doesn't it?

Fair point.
Debate me: Economic decision theory should be adjusted to include higher-order preferences for non-normative purposes http://www.debate.org...

Do you really believe that? Or not? If you believe it, you should man up and defend it in a debate. -RoyLatham

My Pet Fish is such a Douche- NiamC

It's an app to meet friends and stuff, sort of like an adult club penguin- Thett3, describing Tinder
wiploc
Posts: 1,485
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11/4/2013 11:07:52 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/4/2013 8:34:49 AM, chrumbelievable wrote:
1) When is a forfeit acceptable, if ever?

Don't accept a debate if you think you might forfeit.

2) How many forfeited rounds per debate are acceptable? Is this number based on forfeits per person, or total forfeits per debate?

One forfeit will cost you conduct. Two forfeits is a full forfeit (FF) which costs you all seven points.

3) Is the number of acceptable forfeited rounds dependent on the total number of rounds in the debate? For instance, is 2 forfeited rounds acceptable if the total number of rounds is 3, 4, 5, etc.?

Forfeits are always wrong. Avoid them.

4) Should a winner be automatically determined based on forfeits?

I have proposed having a fourth category: Victories, Defeats, Ties, and Forfeited debates. If you forfeit a round, you can no longer win a debate; depending on the votes, it will be recorded as either a loss or a forfeit. If my proposal is approved, debates in which you forfeit a round will never help your ELO or percentile, and they will increase the number of debates you have to do before you can vote.

5) Should debates be ineligible for voting after a certain number of forfeits, or just buried within site navigation?

Yes, if both sides forfeit twice, the debate should be automatically suspended and sent to the Junkyard. The Junkyard is another new category: Debates can be in the challenge state, the debating state, the voting state, the post-voting state, or the Junkyard.
YYW
Posts: 36,242
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11/5/2013 12:09:52 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/4/2013 8:34:49 AM, chrumbelievable wrote:
There has been a lot of talk around the site lately about somehow hiding or burying forfeited debates.

I have a few questions about forfeiting that will help me better understand exactly what action needs to be taken.

1) When is a forfeit acceptable, if ever?

When life happens. Like, if I had an unexpected deadline come up for something and I couldn't get to the debate. And I know there's been a lot of general complaining about forfeits. People need to get the fvck over it. Most of us have lives outside of DDO.

2) How many forfeited rounds per debate are acceptable? Is this number based on forfeits per person, or total forfeits per debate?

As many as cannot be reasonably avoided.

3) Is the number of acceptable forfeited rounds dependent on the total number of rounds in the debate? For instance, is 2 forfeited rounds acceptable if the total number of rounds is 3, 4, 5, etc.?

Only insofar as those rounds cannot be reasonably avoided.

4) Should a winner be automatically determined based on forfeits?

No.

5) Should debates be ineligible for voting after a certain number of forfeits, or just buried within site navigation?

No.

Thanks for your help!

)
YYW
Posts: 36,242
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11/5/2013 12:14:49 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/4/2013 11:07:52 PM, wiploc wrote:
At 11/4/2013 8:34:49 AM, chrumbelievable wrote:
1) When is a forfeit acceptable, if ever?

Don't accept a debate if you think you might forfeit.

Bile. Then by that logic no one should ever accept a debate because there is always the possibility that some circumstance could occur rendering posting a given round impossible.

2) How many forfeited rounds per debate are acceptable? Is this number based on forfeits per person, or total forfeits per debate?

One forfeit will cost you conduct. Two forfeits is a full forfeit (FF) which costs you all seven points.

Voting frameworks like this are one of the many reasons that I remain a passionate advocate of the CVB.

3) Is the number of acceptable forfeited rounds dependent on the total number of rounds in the debate? For instance, is 2 forfeited rounds acceptable if the total number of rounds is 3, 4, 5, etc.?

Forfeits are always wrong. Avoid them.

Yes, it is most important, then, whether a round was posted or not as opposed to what was actually posted in previous rounds even if a later round was forfeited. I suppose if you're a myopic absolutist, this would be a viable framework.

4) Should a winner be automatically determined based on forfeits?

I have proposed having a fourth category: Victories, Defeats, Ties, and Forfeited debates. If you forfeit a round, you can no longer win a debate; depending on the votes, it will be recorded as either a loss or a forfeit. If my proposal is approved, debates in which you forfeit a round will never help your ELO or percentile, and they will increase the number of debates you have to do before you can vote.

You think too much.

5) Should debates be ineligible for voting after a certain number of forfeits, or just buried within site navigation?

Yes, if both sides forfeit twice, the debate should be automatically suspended and sent to the Junkyard. The Junkyard is another new category: Debates can be in the challenge state, the debating state, the voting state, the post-voting state, or the Junkyard.

lol

You literally are more about winning than debating, aren't you?

Nonsense.