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Something goin' on here...

YYW
Posts: 36,286
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11/9/2013 11:09:14 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
...What it is, a'int quite clear. So, let's talk about it.

The lack of votes has been a central issue that the powers that be on DDO have been trying to solve for some time now. Their proposed solution was to create a committee to delete votes which were deemed to be bad. In theory, that sounds great in that only the "good" votes will remain. But there were problems with that idea in that (1) the practical utility of countering votes is lost, such that (2) the community no longer has such an open and clear distinction between what is an unacceptable or an unacceptable vote and (3) all the time spend policing bad votes could have been spent casting better votes where better votes were needed. Of course there were also some very good reasons not to take away the people's power to police themselves and give it to some ambiguous committee, like (4) the chilling effect which would necessarily follow from moderation, which would result from (5) the frustration good voters would feel from the potential of their vote being questioned and (6) the unsettling precedent this sets for the site such that whenever there is a problem, rather than solving it ourselves, we push it off to "others" to take care of it. I voiced my concerns, didn't make a lot of progress... and the committee is still a thing. I guess common sense can't win every battle, but voting was only the surface of the problem.

The real problem is much deeper. The real problem is that there is a staunch lack of really high quality debates -and I'll be the first to admit that I'm just as guilty as the next guy. I even forfeited my last big debate because I just didn't have the time to type up the rounds. I remain sorry to Roy, who got shafted because my schedule became something I didn't predict it to -but even then, would it have been read? I think that when high profile debaters do debate, those are the most likely debates to be read... and I'm sort of assuming that when high profile debaters do debate, that those debates will be good barring unforeseen circumstances. So, we need more and better debates -and the responsibility to do that is on ourselves. That to say this, I think Mikhil and Bsh have both got some really cool new tournaments set up and we should try to join them, for that very reason.

The logic is simple: the greater number of worthwhile debates, the greater number of votes. My hope is that when we read really good debates, we do our best to judge them to the best of our ability. I don't expect perfection, but effort is more than a reasonable expectation -and the lack thereof is what's wrong with us now. If we want this place to be "what it used to be" then we've got to make it what we want it to be once again. There is some wildness that's beyond our control (like the opinion section and the polls), but that's irrelevant to what we've been concerned about. What we're concerned about is ourselves. The more, and better stuff we come up with, I think also more and better people will come. Hopefully, even another person or group of people who are both really smart and really good people. Hopefully not some pastafarian nitwit or sociopathic troll...

But here's a thought: who we are and what we do dictates whether or not ours is a kind of environment where trolls can troll, where idiots can post bile and where whiny myopic jackasses can complain about symptoms rather than address root problems. So, let's address the root problem. It's our culture. It needs a good revitalization. Now.
Tsar of DDO
cybertron1998
Posts: 5,818
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11/9/2013 11:12:33 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
You said unacceptable twice "what votes are unacceptable and unnacceptable"
Epsilon: There are so many stories where some brave hero decides to give their life to save the day, and because of their sacrifice, the good guys win, the survivors all cheer, and everybody lives happily ever after. But the hero... never gets to see that ending. They'll never know if their sacrifice actually made a difference. They'll never know if the day was really saved. In the end, they just have to have faith.
YYW
Posts: 36,286
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11/9/2013 11:22:02 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/9/2013 11:12:33 PM, cybertron1998 wrote:
You said unacceptable twice "what votes are unacceptable and unnacceptable"

Yes, I should have bloody well edited this...
Tsar of DDO
YYW
Posts: 36,286
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11/9/2013 11:22:54 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/9/2013 11:22:02 PM, YYW wrote:
At 11/9/2013 11:12:33 PM, cybertron1998 wrote:
You said unacceptable twice "what votes are unacceptable and unnacceptable"

Yes, I should have bloody well edited this...

I meant what is an acceptable or an unacceptable...

I think autocorrect did that. I think... because that's not something I would type. I wouldn't fvck up a negative like that...
Tsar of DDO
cybertron1998
Posts: 5,818
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11/9/2013 11:23:17 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/9/2013 11:22:02 PM, YYW wrote:
At 11/9/2013 11:12:33 PM, cybertron1998 wrote:
You said unacceptable twice "what votes are unacceptable and unnacceptable"

Yes, I should have bloody well edited this...

Other than that the whole thing is very well said
Epsilon: There are so many stories where some brave hero decides to give their life to save the day, and because of their sacrifice, the good guys win, the survivors all cheer, and everybody lives happily ever after. But the hero... never gets to see that ending. They'll never know if their sacrifice actually made a difference. They'll never know if the day was really saved. In the end, they just have to have faith.
imabench
Posts: 21,216
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11/9/2013 11:23:28 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Way ahead of you: http://www.debate.org...
Kevin24018 : "He's just so mean it makes me want to ball up my fists and stamp on the ground"

7/14/16 = The Presidency Dies

DDO: THE MOVIE = http://www.debate.org...
http://www.debate.org...

VP of DDO from Dec 14th 2014 to Jan 1st 2015
Ore_Ele
Posts: 25,980
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11/10/2013 1:10:33 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
Its not just the greater number of worthwhile debates, it is a greater ratio. When you have a number of good debates, hidden and buried in an avalanche of poor debates, then you will have a problem.

Over the last month, the number of votes is actually up about 10%, however the number of debates is up about 35% (comes to 34.44% but close enough). That is what the problem is. But quality voting has always been a problem. It is now, it was a month ago, it was a year ago, it was 5 years ago.
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
YYW
Posts: 36,286
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11/10/2013 1:28:03 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/10/2013 1:10:33 AM, Ore_Ele wrote:
Its not just the greater number of worthwhile debates, it is a greater ratio. When you have a number of good debates, hidden and buried in an avalanche of poor debates, then you will have a problem.

I completely agree, which is all the more reason that we all (myself included) need to debate more. Perhaps having shorter debates would be a good way to facilitate that, of three rounds or so.

Over the last month, the number of votes is actually up about 10%, however the number of debates is up about 35% (comes to 34.44% but close enough). That is what the problem is. But quality voting has always been a problem. It is now, it was a month ago, it was a year ago, it was 5 years ago.

That's true, and also something to pay attention to -but a problem which begins with debates themselves.
Tsar of DDO
Ore_Ele
Posts: 25,980
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11/10/2013 1:33:12 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/10/2013 1:28:03 AM, YYW wrote:
At 11/10/2013 1:10:33 AM, Ore_Ele wrote:
Its not just the greater number of worthwhile debates, it is a greater ratio. When you have a number of good debates, hidden and buried in an avalanche of poor debates, then you will have a problem.

I completely agree, which is all the more reason that we all (myself included) need to debate more. Perhaps having shorter debates would be a good way to facilitate that, of three rounds or so.

Over the last month, the number of votes is actually up about 10%, however the number of debates is up about 35% (comes to 34.44% but close enough). That is what the problem is. But quality voting has always been a problem. It is now, it was a month ago, it was a year ago, it was 5 years ago.

That's true, and also something to pay attention to -but a problem which begins with debates themselves.

When were "the glory days" in your opinion?
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
YYW
Posts: 36,286
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11/10/2013 1:41:32 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/10/2013 1:33:12 AM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 11/10/2013 1:28:03 AM, YYW wrote:
At 11/10/2013 1:10:33 AM, Ore_Ele wrote:
Its not just the greater number of worthwhile debates, it is a greater ratio. When you have a number of good debates, hidden and buried in an avalanche of poor debates, then you will have a problem.

I completely agree, which is all the more reason that we all (myself included) need to debate more. Perhaps having shorter debates would be a good way to facilitate that, of three rounds or so.

Over the last month, the number of votes is actually up about 10%, however the number of debates is up about 35% (comes to 34.44% but close enough). That is what the problem is. But quality voting has always been a problem. It is now, it was a month ago, it was a year ago, it was 5 years ago.

That's true, and also something to pay attention to -but a problem which begins with debates themselves.

When were "the glory days" in your opinion?

I would be hesitant to call one period "the glory days" but I do think that there was a time when debates were better than they are now.
Tsar of DDO
Ore_Ele
Posts: 25,980
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11/10/2013 1:47:21 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/10/2013 1:41:32 AM, YYW wrote:
At 11/10/2013 1:33:12 AM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 11/10/2013 1:28:03 AM, YYW wrote:
At 11/10/2013 1:10:33 AM, Ore_Ele wrote:
Its not just the greater number of worthwhile debates, it is a greater ratio. When you have a number of good debates, hidden and buried in an avalanche of poor debates, then you will have a problem.

I completely agree, which is all the more reason that we all (myself included) need to debate more. Perhaps having shorter debates would be a good way to facilitate that, of three rounds or so.

Over the last month, the number of votes is actually up about 10%, however the number of debates is up about 35% (comes to 34.44% but close enough). That is what the problem is. But quality voting has always been a problem. It is now, it was a month ago, it was a year ago, it was 5 years ago.

That's true, and also something to pay attention to -but a problem which begins with debates themselves.

When were "the glory days" in your opinion?

I would be hesitant to call one period "the glory days" but I do think that there was a time when debates were better than they are now.

Is that 6 months ago, a year ago 2 years ago?
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
YYW
Posts: 36,286
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11/10/2013 1:51:30 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/10/2013 1:47:21 AM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 11/10/2013 1:41:32 AM, YYW wrote:
At 11/10/2013 1:33:12 AM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 11/10/2013 1:28:03 AM, YYW wrote:
At 11/10/2013 1:10:33 AM, Ore_Ele wrote:
Its not just the greater number of worthwhile debates, it is a greater ratio. When you have a number of good debates, hidden and buried in an avalanche of poor debates, then you will have a problem.

I completely agree, which is all the more reason that we all (myself included) need to debate more. Perhaps having shorter debates would be a good way to facilitate that, of three rounds or so.

Over the last month, the number of votes is actually up about 10%, however the number of debates is up about 35% (comes to 34.44% but close enough). That is what the problem is. But quality voting has always been a problem. It is now, it was a month ago, it was a year ago, it was 5 years ago.

That's true, and also something to pay attention to -but a problem which begins with debates themselves.

When were "the glory days" in your opinion?

I would be hesitant to call one period "the glory days" but I do think that there was a time when debates were better than they are now.

Is that 6 months ago, a year ago 2 years ago?

Hard to say, but at least six months ago. I'm speaking only from my perception of it, though. I make no claim to know the numbers, which I'm sure you'll run after I make this post lol
Tsar of DDO
Ore_Ele
Posts: 25,980
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11/10/2013 2:38:36 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/10/2013 1:51:30 AM, YYW wrote:
At 11/10/2013 1:47:21 AM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 11/10/2013 1:41:32 AM, YYW wrote:
At 11/10/2013 1:33:12 AM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 11/10/2013 1:28:03 AM, YYW wrote:
At 11/10/2013 1:10:33 AM, Ore_Ele wrote:
Its not just the greater number of worthwhile debates, it is a greater ratio. When you have a number of good debates, hidden and buried in an avalanche of poor debates, then you will have a problem.

I completely agree, which is all the more reason that we all (myself included) need to debate more. Perhaps having shorter debates would be a good way to facilitate that, of three rounds or so.

Over the last month, the number of votes is actually up about 10%, however the number of debates is up about 35% (comes to 34.44% but close enough). That is what the problem is. But quality voting has always been a problem. It is now, it was a month ago, it was a year ago, it was 5 years ago.

That's true, and also something to pay attention to -but a problem which begins with debates themselves.

When were "the glory days" in your opinion?

I would be hesitant to call one period "the glory days" but I do think that there was a time when debates were better than they are now.

Is that 6 months ago, a year ago 2 years ago?

Hard to say, but at least six months ago. I'm speaking only from my perception of it, though. I make no claim to know the numbers, which I'm sure you'll run after I make this post lol

Yeah, you know me. We are currently averaging about 50 debates PER DAY. That is the most since I began recording 2 1/2 years ago. The highest that debates hit during Innomen's two terms (with any consistency) was 30 per day, and most of the time it was 15 - 20 per day.
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
johnlubba
Posts: 2,892
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11/10/2013 4:54:46 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/9/2013 11:09:14 PM, YYW wrote:
...What it is, a'int quite clear. So, let's talk about it.

The lack of votes has been a central issue that the powers that be on DDO have been trying to solve for some time now. Their proposed solution was to create a committee to delete votes which were deemed to be bad. In theory, that sounds great in that only the "good" votes will remain. But there were problems with that idea in that (1) the practical utility of countering votes is lost, such that (2) the community no longer has such an open and clear distinction between what is an unacceptable or an unacceptable vote and (3) all the time spend policing bad votes could have been spent casting better votes where better votes were needed. Of course there were also some very good reasons not to take away the people's power to police themselves and give it to some ambiguous committee, like (4) the chilling effect which would necessarily follow from moderation, which would result from (5) the frustration good voters would feel from the potential of their vote being questioned and (6) the unsettling precedent this sets for the site such that whenever there is a problem, rather than solving it ourselves, we push it off to "others" to take care of it. I voiced my concerns, didn't make a lot of progress... and the committee is still a thing. I guess common sense can't win every battle, but voting was only the surface of the problem.

The real problem is much deeper. The real problem is that there is a staunch lack of really high quality debates -and I'll be the first to admit that I'm just as guilty as the next guy. I even forfeited my last big debate because I just didn't have the time to type up the rounds. I remain sorry to Roy, who got shafted because my schedule became something I didn't predict it to -but even then, would it have been read? I think that when high profile debaters do debate, those are the most likely debates to be read... and I'm sort of assuming that when high profile debaters do debate, that those debates will be good barring unforeseen circumstances. So, we need more and better debates -and the responsibility to do that is on ourselves. That to say this, I think Mikhil and Bsh have both got some really cool new tournaments set up and we should try to join them, for that very reason.

The logic is simple: the greater number of worthwhile debates, the greater number of votes. My hope is that when we read really good debates, we do our best to judge them to the best of our ability. I don't expect perfection, but effort is more than a reasonable expectation -and the lack thereof is what's wrong with us now. If we want this place to be "what it used to be" then we've got to make it what we want it to be once again. There is some wildness that's beyond our control (like the opinion section and the polls), but that's irrelevant to what we've been concerned about. What we're concerned about is ourselves. The more, and better stuff we come up with, I think also more and better people will come. Hopefully, even another person or group of people who are both really smart and really good people. Hopefully not some pastafarian nitwit or sociopathic troll...

But here's a thought: who we are and what we do dictates whether or not ours is a kind of environment where trolls can troll, where idiots can post bile and where whiny myopic jackasses can complain about symptoms rather than address root problems. So, let's address the root problem. It's our culture. It needs a good revitalization. Now.

The real problem is much deeper. The real problem is that there is a staunch lack of really high quality debates -and I'll be the first to admit that

But I think even on the quality debates there are still not enough votes. Unless they are already aquatinted with the debaters in question, Which I've witnessed some members win only because they have the same die hard fanatical fans which only appear to give them their vote....It is a ridiculous set up, and the main reason why I do not debate enough on this site. For instance; I could choose to debate somebody, and I can guess the names of a few other members will vote for my opponent even before the debate is over. and even if they debate somebody else, they will still receive the same votes.....It is un-nerving and not really a true reflection of the debates and the effort that is put into the debates.

In other words....It sucks