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Rules Questions

Beverlee
Posts: 721
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11/24/2013 5:51:28 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
In your view, does the following argument have merit?

"So basically here is why X broke the rules. This is the debate format agreed upon.

Round 1: Acceptance
Round 2: Opening arguments (no rebuttals by con)
Round 3: Refutation of opponent's arguments (no new arguments)
Round 4: Defending your original arguments and conclusion (no new arguments)

However, in round 3 Con defended his opening arguments when he wasn't suppose to. I responded to his entire R4 because there needs to be 3 full rounds of debating. Henry wouldn't have had anything to respond to in his R4."

My question:
Is this debator correct? Is this a conduct violation to defend OA in a round where such arguments are not explicitly required, but also not explicitly forbidden? Are rebuttals "new arguments?"
Eitan_Zohar
Posts: 2,697
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11/24/2013 6:00:21 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/24/2013 5:51:28 PM, Beverlee wrote:
Are rebuttals "new arguments?"

No.
"It is my ambition to say in ten sentences what others say in a whole book."
bsh1
Posts: 27,503
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11/24/2013 6:41:54 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Bev, you are the judge in this round and should make this decision yourself--seeking advice is fine, but ultimately it's your call.

Here is my personal take:

In the final round of a debate, neither side should offer new claims or new rebuttals (these are both new arguments) because by doing so, you make it very hard--if not impossible--for your opponent to address them. That isn't fair.

However, in this case, we're not talking about the final round, we're talking about the middle round, which means there is more subjectivity involved.

The ball is in your court.
Live Long and Prosper

I'm a Bish.


"Twilight isn't just about obtuse metaphors between cannibalism and premarital sex, it also teaches us the futility of hope." - Raisor

"[Bsh1] is the Guinan of DDO." - ButterCatX

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Ore_Ele
Posts: 25,980
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11/24/2013 6:56:11 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/24/2013 5:51:28 PM, Beverlee wrote:
In your view, does the following argument have merit?

"So basically here is why X broke the rules. This is the debate format agreed upon.

Round 1: Acceptance
Round 2: Opening arguments (no rebuttals by con)
Round 3: Refutation of opponent's arguments (no new arguments)
Round 4: Defending your original arguments and conclusion (no new arguments)

However, in round 3 Con defended his opening arguments when he wasn't suppose to. I responded to his entire R4 because there needs to be 3 full rounds of debating. Henry wouldn't have had anything to respond to in his R4."

My question:
Is this debator correct? Is this a conduct violation to defend OA in a round where such arguments are not explicitly required, but also not explicitly forbidden? Are rebuttals "new arguments?"

If that debate format is what was agreed upon, then I could see it being justified to penalize one side the conduct point (assuming there were no other conduct violations, and if one side threw a hissy fit and did the "I'll take my ball and go home" routine, the conduct could swing the other way). However, it is minor enough that there is also justification ignore the conduction issue.
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
dylancatlow
Posts: 12,242
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11/24/2013 7:02:32 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/24/2013 5:51:28 PM, Beverlee wrote:
My question:
Is this debator correct? Is this a conduct violation to defend OA in a round where such arguments are not explicitly required, but also not explicitly forbidden? Are rebuttals "new arguments?"

They are implicitly forbidden.
Beverlee
Posts: 721
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11/24/2013 7:25:44 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Thank you, I am judging this debate now, and I've studied two rounds so far. I will own my final decision, as Brian pointed out, but wanted to solicit input from the DDO community first. I felt that this would respect the effort both debators put into the contest, and help me gain a more accurate understanding of DDO norms.
Beverlee
Posts: 721
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11/24/2013 7:27:17 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/24/2013 7:02:32 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 11/24/2013 5:51:28 PM, Beverlee wrote:
My question:
Is this debator correct? Is this a conduct violation to defend OA in a round where such arguments are not explicitly required, but also not explicitly forbidden? Are rebuttals "new arguments?"

They are implicitly forbidden.

Do you agree or disagree that rebuttals/defenses represent "new arguments?"
bsh1
Posts: 27,503
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11/24/2013 7:31:35 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/24/2013 7:25:44 PM, Beverlee wrote:
Thank you, I am judging this debate now, and I've studied two rounds so far. I will own my final decision, as Brian pointed out, but wanted to solicit input from the DDO community first. I felt that this would respect the effort both debators put into the contest, and help me gain a more accurate understanding of DDO norms.

That's admirable--a lot of people wouldn't have done that, but would have simply voted their opinion. Thanks for taking this so seriously!
Live Long and Prosper

I'm a Bish.


"Twilight isn't just about obtuse metaphors between cannibalism and premarital sex, it also teaches us the futility of hope." - Raisor

"[Bsh1] is the Guinan of DDO." - ButterCatX

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dylancatlow
Posts: 12,242
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11/24/2013 7:35:52 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/24/2013 7:27:17 PM, Beverlee wrote:
At 11/24/2013 7:02:32 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 11/24/2013 5:51:28 PM, Beverlee wrote:
My question:
Is this debator correct? Is this a conduct violation to defend OA in a round where such arguments are not explicitly required, but also not explicitly forbidden? Are rebuttals "new arguments?"

They are implicitly forbidden.

Do you agree or disagree that rebuttals/defenses represent "new arguments?"

Rebuttals aren't new arguments. If they were, the rule 'no new arguments in round X' would preclude debate of any kind, which is absurd.
bsh1
Posts: 27,503
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11/24/2013 7:46:52 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/24/2013 7:35:52 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 11/24/2013 7:27:17 PM, Beverlee wrote:
At 11/24/2013 7:02:32 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 11/24/2013 5:51:28 PM, Beverlee wrote:
My question:
Is this debator correct? Is this a conduct violation to defend OA in a round where such arguments are not explicitly required, but also not explicitly forbidden? Are rebuttals "new arguments?"

They are implicitly forbidden.

Do you agree or disagree that rebuttals/defenses represent "new arguments?"

Rebuttals aren't new arguments. If they were, the rule 'no new arguments in round X' would preclude debate of any kind, which is absurd.

I would normally disagree with Dylancatlow on this one--I think rebuttals are new arguments--but he is also right that if we interpret the rules as excluding rebuttals, then there is no way Con can make any points. In the context of this debate, then, it seems as if rebuttal may not be new arguments.
Live Long and Prosper

I'm a Bish.


"Twilight isn't just about obtuse metaphors between cannibalism and premarital sex, it also teaches us the futility of hope." - Raisor

"[Bsh1] is the Guinan of DDO." - ButterCatX

Follow the DDOlympics
: http://www.debate.org...

Open Debate Topics Project: http://www.debate.org...
dylancatlow
Posts: 12,242
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11/24/2013 7:52:21 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/24/2013 7:46:52 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 11/24/2013 7:35:52 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 11/24/2013 7:27:17 PM, Beverlee wrote:
At 11/24/2013 7:02:32 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 11/24/2013 5:51:28 PM, Beverlee wrote:
My question:
Is this debator correct? Is this a conduct violation to defend OA in a round where such arguments are not explicitly required, but also not explicitly forbidden? Are rebuttals "new arguments?"

They are implicitly forbidden.

Do you agree or disagree that rebuttals/defenses represent "new arguments?"

Rebuttals aren't new arguments. If they were, the rule 'no new arguments in round X' would preclude debate of any kind, which is absurd.

I would normally disagree with Dylancatlow on this one--I think rebuttals are new arguments--but he is also right that if we interpret the rules as excluding rebuttals, then there is no way Con can make any points. In the context of this debate, then, it seems as if rebuttal may not be new arguments.

Also observe the distinction made in the OP between 'no new rebuttals' and 'no new arguments'.
dylancatlow
Posts: 12,242
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11/24/2013 7:52:45 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/24/2013 7:52:21 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 11/24/2013 7:46:52 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 11/24/2013 7:35:52 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 11/24/2013 7:27:17 PM, Beverlee wrote:
At 11/24/2013 7:02:32 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 11/24/2013 5:51:28 PM, Beverlee wrote:
My question:
Is this debator correct? Is this a conduct violation to defend OA in a round where such arguments are not explicitly required, but also not explicitly forbidden? Are rebuttals "new arguments?"

They are implicitly forbidden.

Do you agree or disagree that rebuttals/defenses represent "new arguments?"

Rebuttals aren't new arguments. If they were, the rule 'no new arguments in round X' would preclude debate of any kind, which is absurd.

I would normally disagree with Dylancatlow on this one--I think rebuttals are new arguments--but he is also right that if we interpret the rules as excluding rebuttals, then there is no way Con can make any points. In the context of this debate, then, it seems as if rebuttal may not be new arguments.

Also observe the distinction made in the OP between 'no rebuttals' and 'no new arguments'.

fixed
Ore_Ele
Posts: 25,980
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11/24/2013 7:53:22 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
I don't consider rebuttals as new arguments by definition, though they often involve them. If someone brings in a new idea, or a new piece of evidence, that is a new argument. If they point out someone of which they already said in a previous round, then it is not.
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
bsh1
Posts: 27,503
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11/24/2013 7:53:23 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/24/2013 7:52:21 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 11/24/2013 7:46:52 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 11/24/2013 7:35:52 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 11/24/2013 7:27:17 PM, Beverlee wrote:
At 11/24/2013 7:02:32 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 11/24/2013 5:51:28 PM, Beverlee wrote:
My question:
Is this debator correct? Is this a conduct violation to defend OA in a round where such arguments are not explicitly required, but also not explicitly forbidden? Are rebuttals "new arguments?"

They are implicitly forbidden.

Do you agree or disagree that rebuttals/defenses represent "new arguments?"

Rebuttals aren't new arguments. If they were, the rule 'no new arguments in round X' would preclude debate of any kind, which is absurd.

I would normally disagree with Dylancatlow on this one--I think rebuttals are new arguments--but he is also right that if we interpret the rules as excluding rebuttals, then there is no way Con can make any points. In the context of this debate, then, it seems as if rebuttal may not be new arguments.

Also observe the distinction made in the OP between 'no new rebuttals' and 'no new arguments'.

Precisely. Bev--this is probably important for what you're trying to know/get-at.
Live Long and Prosper

I'm a Bish.


"Twilight isn't just about obtuse metaphors between cannibalism and premarital sex, it also teaches us the futility of hope." - Raisor

"[Bsh1] is the Guinan of DDO." - ButterCatX

Follow the DDOlympics
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Open Debate Topics Project: http://www.debate.org...
Beverlee
Posts: 721
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11/24/2013 8:26:39 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Ok, I've read everything and I have enough to make a decision. Thanks everybody; this was very helpful.
bsh1
Posts: 27,503
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11/24/2013 8:30:19 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/24/2013 8:26:39 PM, Beverlee wrote:
Ok, I've read everything and I have enough to make a decision. Thanks everybody; this was very helpful.

Glad to help. If you have any other questions, just PM me. Thanks, Bev!
Live Long and Prosper

I'm a Bish.


"Twilight isn't just about obtuse metaphors between cannibalism and premarital sex, it also teaches us the futility of hope." - Raisor

"[Bsh1] is the Guinan of DDO." - ButterCatX

Follow the DDOlympics
: http://www.debate.org...

Open Debate Topics Project: http://www.debate.org...
Magic8000
Posts: 975
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11/25/2013 12:09:05 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
This debater is definelty correct, whoever he is. Heheheh :p jk.

But really, thanks Bev.
404 coherent debate topic not found. Please restart the debate with clear resolution.

"So Magic8000 believes Einstein was a proctologist who was persuaded by the Government and Hitler to fabricate the Theory of Relativity"- GWL-CPA