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Official 2013 Presidential Debate/Discussion

Mikal
Posts: 11,270
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12/6/2013 1:01:12 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
Welcome one and all to a discussion/debate in which I will moderate. I am doing this for only 2 candidates at this point, and it is the two whom have the most support in the upcoming election thus far. I am judging this based on straw polls that have been conducted along with messages and conversations among many top users in DDO. At this present point I feel it is safe to say that TUF and Imabench are pulling the majority of the votes at this point followed by Cody and then very slim support of Patriot. When I added up the straw polls and personal messages that were all sent out, the last numbers that I came up with was ; Tuf was leading 65 to Imas 51 Followed by Cody at 36 and Patriot at 4. This is adding in straw polls made by myself in addition with some other members, Polls, and personal messages. From this perspective I feel the need to start with these two candidates whom are at the helm of the DDO election.

This discussion/debate will feature TUF/Bobert vs IMA/ Citrakayah

I offered to help structure a formal debate, but Imabench is restricted to time limitations and finals, so all of the candidates agreed to this format instead.

THIS DEBATE/DISCUSSION WILL BE STRUCTURED AND I WILL OPEN IT UP TO CONFRONTATION LATER IN THE COMING DAYS. Meaning I will allow both contenders to address each other personally rather than respond to questions.

I ALSO WILL ASK THAT IF OTHER USERS IN DDO HAVE RESPONSES TO WHAT IS BEING SAID AND WOULD LIKE TO VOICE QUESTIONS THAT THEY DO SO WITH RESPECT AND KEEP IT SIMPLE. DO NOT SPAM THIS FORUM WITH NONSENSE

I want to keep the focus strictly on the candidates. That being said if you have a question you would like both candidates to address, please post it and we will try to cover it. At any point if I am at work/away. I urge the contenders to pull questions from the audience and address them as well. This is a cross examination in which both contenders will respond to teach other. When I am online, I will do my best to keep this structured at moderated. If I am offline, I would ask that Airmax/Ore/Roy or some other veteran members help this move along. I am working a lot at nights and I want this forum to cover all the questions that people want answered, and I most surely will need help when I am absent.

With that being said , lets get started.
Mikal
Posts: 11,270
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12/6/2013 1:01:56 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
The first Question I would like to open up discussion about is a new liberal banning policy. This has been a vital piece of Imas support base and I would like to start here. Best of luck
imabench
Posts: 21,206
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12/6/2013 1:19:12 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/6/2013 1:01:56 AM, Mikal wrote:
The first Question I would like to open up discussion about is a new liberal banning policy. This has been a vital piece of Imas support base and I would like to start here. Best of luck

The reason why the new banning policy is a central part of my platform is because it is the one type of change that Presidents can actually control and deliver if elected, compared to the run-of-the-mill candidates who in the past (and present) ran/run almost completely on promising new flashy updates that would require significant effort from Juggle to even take place....... Juggle has been unable to update the site on a regular basis for a while now because all of their manpower is focused on just keeping the site running, which means that a president who promises to make a lot of changes most certainly wont be able to deliver on those proposed updates.

The banning/punishment policy though is something which CAN be controlled, and is also something that a lot of people believe should be overhauled.

Take me for example, I can name at least 5 fights Ive gotten into in the past month alone that I probably should have been temp-banned over, yet I wasnt. Its not just me either, lots of people in the past have gotten into absolutely vicious fights on the forums and gotten off with a warning or a restraining order when they probably too should have been temp banned, which I believe a lot of people on the site arent ok with.

I know im the last person who anyone would ever be expect to advocate a tougher banning/punishment policy, but that doesnt change the fact that we still need one..... Since its something DDO actually could use and is also one of the few things a president can actually change, I decided to make banning reform the centerpiece of my platform
Kevin24018 : "He's just so mean it makes me want to ball up my fists and stamp on the ground"

7/14/16 = The Presidency Dies

DDO: THE MOVIE = http://www.debate.org...
http://www.debate.org...

VP of DDO from Dec 14th 2014 to Jan 1st 2015
imabench
Posts: 21,206
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12/6/2013 1:25:40 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
We probably should have waited to make this thread rather then launch it at 2AM East Coast Time.....

On a Thursday......
Kevin24018 : "He's just so mean it makes me want to ball up my fists and stamp on the ground"

7/14/16 = The Presidency Dies

DDO: THE MOVIE = http://www.debate.org...
http://www.debate.org...

VP of DDO from Dec 14th 2014 to Jan 1st 2015
Mikal
Posts: 11,270
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12/6/2013 1:28:05 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/6/2013 1:25:40 AM, imabench wrote:
We probably should have waited to make this thread rather then launch it at 2AM East Coast Time.....

On a Thursday......

I am passing out, and I will bump it if need be. Tuf can respond whenever he sees it. Vice versa. If I am away you guys can moderate it. Will be to hard to structure an actual time when everyone can be on. I just want this to be an actual structured confrontation. It will help people decide whom is the best. I linked everyone the forum in the message, including bobert and karah. All of you are going to participate :) best of luck in the upcoming days.
TUF
Posts: 21,304
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12/6/2013 9:23:27 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
I will start off with some questions, in direct regards to Imabench's post.

At 12/6/2013 1:19:12 AM, imabench wrote:
The reason why the new banning policy is a central part of my platform is because it is the one type of change that Presidents can actually control and deliver if elected,

How do you think the president can control and deliver this as promised, if airmax1227 the current moderator chooses to decline abiding by such principals?

compared to the run-of-the-mill candidates who in the past (and present) ran/run almost completely on promising new flashy updates that would require significant effort from Juggle to even take place

Given your use of the word "current", which candidates promised flashy updates, as opposed to simply suggesting putting in the work towards them and presenting them as ideas to Juggle?

....... Juggle has been unable to update the site on a regular basis for a while now because all of their manpower is focused on just keeping the site running, which means that a president who promises to make a lot of changes most certainly wont be able to deliver on those proposed updates.

Do you believe the same desired results of those updates can or cannot be accomplished without updates? If yes to the above, which president offering to put in the work for such updates, didn't also outline a plan to accomplish the same results without external forces?

The banning/punishment policy though is something which CAN be controlled, and is also something that a lot of people believe should be overhauled.

Based on recent disputes, do you believe the banning policy caters to everyone's needs or mainly a direct few? If yes, please explain how your definition of banning "idiots" in your policy, is the exact same definition as everyone else's.

Take me for example, I can name at least 5 fights Ive gotten into in the past month alone that I probably should have been temp-banned over, yet I wasn't. Its not just me either, lots of people in the past have gotten into absolutely vicious fights on the forums and gotten off with a warning or a restraining order when they probably too should have been temp banned, which I believe a lot of people on the site aren't ok with.

If you think you should have been temp banned, by this logic what example do you think you will be able to put forth as a president and role model of DDO to encourage others not to follow suit of your previous behavior?

I know i'm the last person who anyone would ever be expect to advocate a tougher banning/punishment policy, but that doesn't change the fact that we still need one.....

Do you think based on the communities experience of you, it would be logical in anyway to take you at your word for any behavioral changes? Also as president, what behavior changes do you expect to meet?

Since its something DDO actually could use and is also one of the few things a president can actually change, I decided to make banning reform the centerpiece of my platform.

In your recent Q/A with Mikal, you stated that ultimately airmax1227 will decide if he wants to ban someone or not. Would you say this contradicts the part of your platform that says it is something a president can "actually change"?

In your own words, can you give me a direct interpretation of what you feel the role of a president is?

Given the fact that you keep re-asserting that a president cannot promise updates, how much leeway do you think you will have in pushing the removal of the opinions section?

If juggle decided not to agree to removal of the opinion section, what steps would you take at getting the site's directions on to the things you feel are more important?

Do you think it is possible to focus as much attention away from the opinions section without having to advocate complete removal?

In what ways do you think the polls contribute to the site direction more than the opinions?

If someone were to behave and conduct themselves towards another member in a similar way you have conducted yourself to members in the past, would you think that member should deserve a temp/perma ban?

What leader attribute's do you think you have?

And lastly, why do you think you need to be a president to make any of the things in your platform happen, as opposed to a regular member?
"I've got to go and grab a shirt" ~ Airmax1227
ClassicRobert
Posts: 2,487
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12/6/2013 9:24:48 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
If I may address imabench-

First of all, to address his claim that presidential candidates can't really do much in regards to actually getting updates: we beg to differ. An extremely important part of the TUF/ClassicRobert ticket is that, due to TUF's programming knowledge, we are capable of making it easy as possible for Juggle to make updates. We have already made progress on team debates (and I am excited to say that I will be presenting our progress to the public in a separate thread later today!), and in programming these things and getting them ready, we aim to make it as easy as copy/pasting the code into the source code for the website. Though this is still ultimately done at Juggle's discretion, we aim to make it simple and quick for the resource-bare Juggle to make updates. That being said, his claim that candidates can't really do much about updates certainly applies to his ticket, which the voters should keep in mind.

Anyway, to address imabench's liberal banning policy: we think it is an well-intentioned, but ultimately unwise idea. Banning has always been and should always be taken as a last resort, after everything else has been tried, except in extreme cases. Some of these extreme cases might include sexual harassment of other members or posting member's personal information to the forums. Banning needs to be based on standards which are as objective as we can possibly make them, and standards like the above are objective. Stupidity, however, is not. That is, by nature, a popularity based measure, and we cannot make Debate.org into a gated community, which banning users for stupidity effectively does.

So I would like to outline a few possibilities for measures that we can take before banning a member:
Send them a message requesting they stop whatever behavior they are engaging in, be it forum spamming, swearing excessively, whatever.
Sending them a friendly message where we help them out in understanding the mentality of the DDO community.
Discuss the possibility of the DDO version of a restraining order with the offended parties, the offender, and airmax1227 (the moderator).
Report their posts so the moderator (airmax1227) can delete the offensive posts.
The most important measure we can and should take, however, is to try to engage with them on an intellectual level. I remember when I was new to the forums, and I was honestly terrified. Here were all of these people who knew so much, who had read into political philosophy, and who could pull statistics out of nowhere. Every once in a while, I would post sort of sheepishly on one of the threads, back away, and then go back to one of my debates. However, after a certain point, people started to address me intellectually, and almost out of nowhere, my behavior changed. I began to respond back, and I put a lot of effort into my responses. I would proofread them a dozen times over, and then I would post back a high-effort response so I could try to feel equal to the intellectuals that are so famous within the DDO community. This sort of thing is something that anybody can do, but that TUF and I feel obligated to do.

It is only if all of this fails (excluding extreme cases, as outlined in the second paragraph) that a permaban should even be considered as an option. This is an area where TUF and I believe that airmax1227 has excelled. He has been incredibly fair and patient in regards to banning and trying all other options first, and that is what we are shooting for.

However, we are in agreement that trials can and should be used in extreme cases of controversy, however, TUF and I don't think they should be nearly as common as imabench seems to recommend, or should be based on nearly as subjective of a standard as stupidity. Someone needs to have done something else which explicitly goes against our code of conduct to deserve that. But ultimately, trials, like presidential campaigns, are just a distraction from what the site is about, and though they can be nice from time to time, making them more prevalent would just be making them into a chore.
Debate me: Economic decision theory should be adjusted to include higher-order preferences for non-normative purposes http://www.debate.org...

Do you really believe that? Or not? If you believe it, you should man up and defend it in a debate. -RoyLatham

My Pet Fish is such a Douche- NiamC

It's an app to meet friends and stuff, sort of like an adult club penguin- Thett3, describing Tinder
TUF
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12/6/2013 9:39:35 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
Citrakyah

For what reasons did you choose to assist imabench as a VP, as opposed to any other candidates?

Based on your personal experience with imabench, do you think he will make for a different kind of president then he was a user? If not, do you think it is important for a president to conduct himself in a professional manner, as presidents in the past has?

In your own words, what do you think the role of the president is?

Do you believe a president should be a role model for the people in their community? If so, in what ways do you think Imabench has presented himself to be such a role model?

If you could add or change anything to Imabenchs platform, what would you change?

Do you think imabench should present himself differently on a social level, if elected president?

As Imabench's VP, what will you play in assisting him in his platform?

How would you imagine DDO if it were a perfect community? Do you thinks the steps in imabench's platform in anyway can lead towards such a community?

What is your take on the difference between the opinion and polls section, such that the opinions deserves to be removed as opposed to the polls?

Can you explain the exact process you will take in trying to accomplish the liberal banning policy?

Can you explain the exact process you will take in trying to accomplish the removal of the opinions section?

Do you think as a normal user, that you can effect these changes in the same way you can as a vice president? Why or why not?
"I've got to go and grab a shirt" ~ Airmax1227
TUF
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12/6/2013 9:45:41 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
Both:

Why do you think removal of members, and site features are more important than trying to make additions and community building?
"I've got to go and grab a shirt" ~ Airmax1227
Citrakayah
Posts: 1,500
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12/6/2013 10:26:13 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/6/2013 9:39:35 AM, TUF wrote:
Citrakyah

For what reasons did you choose to assist imabench as a VP, as opposed to any other candidates?

He asked. Also, I believe that, should he become president, someone who is more diplomatic and constantly level-headed may be able to handle certain duties Imabench is not able to.

Based on your personal experience with imabench, do you think he will make for a different kind of president then he was a user? If not, do you think it is important for a president to conduct himself in a professional manner, as presidents in the past has?

Yes and no. I think he'll be able to restrain himself from insulting someone's wife, and if he doesn't I'll temp-ban him. But I don't think it's important for presidents to be professional all the time. In my experience with the Werelist (a forum I help run), moderators were perfectly capable of engaging in silliness. Of course, behind the scenes, there were expectations of professionalism. We had to be able to think logically, and calmly. And professionalism was expected when putting on the official moderator hat (though here, I think, that professionalism could have fairly low standards).

But I don't see any reason why Imabench couldn't continue to do joke debates and such as president, or why he couldn't do things like producing the DDO Walking Dead. The Weekly Stupid might be argued to be something a president shouldn't do... however, I think that with one or two minor tweaks, most objections could be answered.

In your own words, what do you think the role of the president is?

Someone who gets sh!t done.

But more seriously, I think that the role of a president is to handle administrative duties. Seeing as how Imabench is on all the time, and fairly well-liked by many, I believe he could serve this job admirably, and for things he cannot do, he can recruit others to be members of his administration and cabinet.

Do you believe a president should be a role model for the people in their community? If so, in what ways do you think Imabench has presented himself to be such a role model?

I think that someone in the administration should be a role model--whoever is best at the job. However, a role model is not necessarily the only public figure, and people can be role models for different things.

If you could add or change anything to Imabenchs platform, what would you change?

Clearly define "stupid idiot" so that it is "someone who runs around like badger making inane comments all the time and running threads into the ground."

Basically, I propose that if someone is doing something like AnDoctuir or whatever his name is these days--basically, trolling and ruining a thread--that they be told to knock it off. If they don't, temp-ban. If they keep doing it after the ban expires, start temp-banning for longer periods, then eventually resort to a perma-ban. Same thing with hate speech, like that of Tes95.

Do you think imabench should present himself differently on a social level, if elected president?

Nah. Well, aside from cleaning up his act a bit.

As Imabench's VP, what will you play in assisting him in his platform?

I'll argue for it, and help implement it. I expect I'll handle a lot of day-to-day operations, and temporarily take over if he's emotionally compromised.

How would you imagine DDO if it were a perfect community? Do you thinks the steps in imabench's platform in anyway can lead towards such a community?

Everyone would be very... zen. Calm. Rational. But that isn't going to happen. I don't think Imabench's platform could lead towards such a city on the hill, and I don't think anybody's could. The only way to do so would be to:

1. Have a site culture which gangs up and shuns people who step out of line and perform an en mass calling out.
2. Have mods who do the same thing.

Sure, it's possible to do zen on the Werelist, or on a speculative evolution site, but this is a debate site about politics. Not going to happen.

What is your take on the difference between the opinion and polls section, such that the opinions deserves to be removed as opposed to the polls?

Opinions force a false dichotomy between yes or no. For instance, the question "Do you support gun rights?" can have answers besides yes or no--one could answer, "Yes, I believe that people should be able to have pistols" or one could answer "No, I do not believe people should be able to have assault weapons, let them have pistols."

The format of a poll makes adding a custom answer, and having other people select it, much easier.

But I'll be honest, I'm not terribly fond of polls either, and wouldn't shed many tears if they did vanish.

Can you explain the exact process you will take in trying to accomplish the liberal banning policy?

1. Continue normal activity for everyone in the adminstration.
2. If we see someone:
a) Spamming threads with nonsense
b) Posting hate speech
c) Insulting another member at great length
... we send them a PM telling them to knock it off already.
3. If that doesn't work, temp-ban them for, say, a few days.
4. If that doesn't work, temp-ban them for a week.
5. Try a month next.
6. Permaban.

Now, some of you might be asking, "Well, Citrakayah, how is this more liberal?"

Answer: Because we'll do it quickly. Remember the vicious (obvious) reptilian (see his avatar) Tes95 (http://www.debate.org...)? He went on for three months posting hate speech, did four debates, eighteen forum posts, 41 opinion arguments, eighteen opinion questions, and somehow he managed to get in six poll votes.

An Imabench/Citrakayah administration will absolutely not tolerate sh!t like that (or this: http://www.debate.org...).

Yes, it is possible to argue against gay marriage and not come off like that. Since this a debate site, such is acceptable. But at a certain point, the pure vitriol become apparent. Tes95 was not the type to remain silent if the mods told him to knock it off or temp-ban him (indeed, he'd start shouting about tyranny and injustice and how they must be gay). Worse yet, they weren't actually banned, despite repeatedly insulting a member, making inane legal threats, and running rampant with hate speech.

If Debate.Org is to be a place for reasonable, rational discourse, a public warning--and (seeing as Tes95 would almost certainly racket up the hate) a temp-ban--is perfectly justified.

Can you explain the exact process you will take in trying to accomplish the removal of the opinions section?

Ask Juggle politely to remove it, and campaign heavily in the forums against it. Start a boycott of it. There's not much we can directly do to remove it, though I think that if we work hard enough at it, we may be able to argue successfully that, by lowering the site's quality, the opinions section could cause the mainstay of Debate.Org--debates--to gradually vanish, making it nothing more than another "state your position" site, of which there are many.

If Juggle's reason for doing this is solely financial, we may also be able to work with them to make sure they turn a profit without the opinions section.

Do you think as a normal user, that you can effect these changes in the same way you can as a vice president? Why or why not?

I do not. As a normal user, I am not considered to have Juggle's ear. As vice president, they would be more inclined to pay attention. Unfortunate, but true.
Citrakayah
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12/6/2013 10:28:35 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/6/2013 9:45:41 AM, TUF wrote:
Both:

Why do you think removal of members, and site features are more important than trying to make additions and community building?

I don't. I just think that they're more things that fit with the position. And I don't intend to not do community building. Were we to be elected, I would support appointing you as Head Votemonger.
imabench
Posts: 21,206
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12/6/2013 11:07:49 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/6/2013 9:23:27 AM, TUF wrote:
I will start off with some questions, in direct regards to Imabench's post.

How do you think the president can control and deliver this as promised, if airmax1227 the current moderator chooses to decline abiding by such principals?

Since 95% of people who end up banned are usually either massive spammers, harassers, or other problem members, I dont see why he would be opposed to banning those same people a tad bit faster then he normally would have as president. The point of a more liberal banning policy is to ban the same kinds of people who normally get banned, but just do it earlier and also include people who only post hate content and people who massively drag down the quality of the site due to their idiocy.

Given your use of the word "current", which candidates promised flashy updates, as opposed to simply suggesting putting in the work towards them and presenting them as ideas to Juggle?

Promising flashy updates and suggesting putting in work towards them + presenting them to Juggle are the same hollow promises that candidates can make TUF, because it all boils down to whether or not Juggle tries to intervene and implement those changes. In your own platform you said

'I plan on putting my own blood, sweat, and tears, into every project the community wants', which is just overhyped babble where you imply you will try to deliver on every proposed update the site wants to see, which you know you is a promise you cannot fulfil or carry out successfully.

Do you believe the same desired results of those updates can or cannot be accomplished without updates?

What?

The banning/punishment policy though is something which CAN be controlled, and is also something that a lot of people believe should be overhauled.

Based on recent disputes, do you believe the banning policy caters to everyone's needs or mainly a direct few?

It sure as hell doesnt cater to the needs of the spammers and the sexual harassers who would end up being banned sooner.

If you think you should have been temp banned, by this logic what example do you think you will be able to put forth as a president and role model of DDO to encourage others not to follow suit of your previous behavior?

The best way to get people to stop acting like massive trolls isnt to lead by example, its to come down on the worst offenders hard, fast, and make examples out of them through temp bans or perm bans depending on the nature of their acts so that everyone else gets the message of what will happen if they dont behave.

Do you think based on the communities experience of you, it would be logical in anyway to take you at your word for any behavioral changes?

The reason I picked Citra as my VP was so that he can keep me on a short leash when I need to be, so it is logical to some degree

Also as president, what behavior changes do you expect to meet?

I would expect to see a noticeable dip in people harassing each other and posting nothing but hate content by banning the worst offenders a hell of a lot faster then they normally would have been banned.

In your recent Q/A with Mikal, you stated that ultimately airmax1227 will decide if he wants to ban someone or not. Would you say this contradicts the part of your platform that says it is something a president can "actually change"?

No because as ive already explained before, a more liberal banning policy mostly bans the exact same people who normally would have been banned, but just makes it a little faster to a lot faster depending on the severity of their actions.

In your own words, can you give me a direct interpretation of what you feel the role of a president is?

The role of the President is to oversee the running of the site that Juggle cannot regulate/control on their own, and arent the responsibilities of the mods to handle.

Given the fact that you keep re-asserting that a president cannot promise updates, how much leeway do you think you will have in pushing the removal of the opinions section?

I said that it is very difficult for presidents to keep their promises about updating the site TUF, not that it is impossible. If Juggle could update the site on a regular basis again then removal of the opinions section would be the first thing I advocate since it would clean up a lot of the problems that Juggle currently has its hands tied with (immense traffic flow) while also opening the door for them to be able to deliver on future updates.

If juggle decided not to agree to removal of the opinion section, what steps would you take at getting the site's directions on to the things you feel are more important?

That would be the overhauled banning policy, and pushing for any updates Juggle does somehow make to focus on cleaning up the cluttered voting section to encourage voting and get rid of sh*tty debates

Do you think it is possible to focus as much attention away from the opinions section without having to advocate complete removal?

No.... Thats kinda why I am advocating for its complete removal.

In what ways do you think the polls contribute to the site direction more than the opinions?

The opinions section acts as a completely unrestrained gateway for anonymous users who dont have an account on DDO to flood into the site, polls on the other hand are for members only and were always meant FOR people already on DDO.

If someone were to behave and conduct themselves towards another member in a similar way you have conducted yourself to members in the past, would you think that member should deserve a temp/perma ban?

Have you even SEEN the instances where Ive conducted myself in the past? Hell yes they should deserve a temp ban.

What leader attribute's do you think you have?

Well putting foot to a** on the lowest and dumbest members of DDO resonates with people I guess, though you probably would get a better answer of what leadership attributes I have by asking the people voting for me why they are voting for me.

And lastly, why do you think you need to be a president to make any of the things in your platform happen, as opposed to a regular member?

A regular member cant install an overhauled banning policy or set up a fair process for removing exceptionally stupid people from the site, thats something only a president can do.
Kevin24018 : "He's just so mean it makes me want to ball up my fists and stamp on the ground"

7/14/16 = The Presidency Dies

DDO: THE MOVIE = http://www.debate.org...
http://www.debate.org...

VP of DDO from Dec 14th 2014 to Jan 1st 2015
imabench
Posts: 21,206
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12/6/2013 11:26:01 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/6/2013 9:24:48 AM, ClassicRobert wrote:
If I may address imabench-

First of all, to address his claim that presidential candidates can't really do much in regards to actually getting updates: we beg to differ. An extremely important part of the TUF/ClassicRobert ticket is that, due to TUF's programming knowledge, we are capable of making it easy as possible for Juggle to make updates.

If its an 'extremely important' part of your campaign then name one other thing youve actually worked on and programmed that isnt Team Debates ......

Anyway, to address imabench's liberal banning policy: we think it is an well-intentioned, but ultimately unwise idea. Banning has always been and should always be taken as a last resort, after everything else has been tried, except in extreme cases. Some of these extreme cases might include sexual harassment of other members or posting member's personal information to the forums.

Seriously, you wouldnt ban someone from the site unless they post a members personal information to the forums? If a member resorts to posting personal info in the forums then that person deserved to get banned a long, long time ago.

We cannot make Debate.org into a gated community, which banning users for stupidity effectively does.

Sure we can make DDO a gated community, in fact it should be too.

So I would like to outline a few possibilities for measures that we can take before banning a member:
Send them a message requesting they stop whatever behavior they are engaging in, be it forum spamming, swearing excessively, whatever.

Everyone gets a first warning

Sending them a friendly message where we help them out in understanding the mentality of the DDO community.

Sorry, I dont buy into that hippie-hold-hands-and-sing-kumbaya bullsh**. If someone gets warned for their behavior and they continue to act the way they do, then the thing to do is give them a temp ban, not a history lesson.

Discuss the possibility of the DDO version of a restraining order with the offended parties, the offender, and airmax1227 (the moderator).

That would be included in the initial warning message for two members in a conflict

Report their posts so the moderator (airmax1227) can delete the offensive posts.

Thats done automatically last time I checked, its not a tool for conflict resolution.

The most important measure we can and should take, however, is to try to engage with them on an intellectual level.

And I disagree. I speak troll, and the only language that trolls speak is idiocy and authority. This is the internet for f*cks sake, you cant engage with idiots on an intellectual level to get them to understand why sexually harassing other members is considered to be bad, and if it comes down to sexual harassment, im not lighting some incense and meditating with the idiots in question in a temple near a waterfall, im whipping out the banhammer.

I remember when I was new to the forums, and I was honestly terrified. Here were all of these people who knew so much, who had read into political philosophy, and who could pull statistics out of nowhere. Every once in a while, I would post sort of sheepishly on one of the threads, back away, and then go back to one of my debates. However, after a certain point, people started to address me intellectually, and almost out of nowhere, my behavior changed. I began to respond back, and I put a lot of effort into my responses. I would proofread them a dozen times over, and then I would post back a high-effort response so I could try to feel equal to the intellectuals that are so famous within the DDO community. This sort of thing is something that anybody can do,

Its not an issue that people CAN do those things, the issue is that some people dont WANT to engage in intellectual conversations around here. Some people are here purely to start fights, harass others, and be retarded trolls who whore themselves out for attention.

It is only if all of this fails (excluding extreme cases, as outlined in the second paragraph) that a permaban should even be considered as an option. This is an area where TUF and I believe that airmax1227 has excelled. He has been incredibly fair and patient in regards to banning and trying all other options first, and that is what we are shooting for.

And I maintain the stance that he has at times been too patient and should have resorted to banning earlier.

However, we are in agreement that trials can and should be used in extreme cases of controversyHhowever, TUF and I don't think they should be nearly as common as imabench seems to recommend,

I myself went on record saying that I would be surprised if there were 3 or more over a 6 month period..... How is that too 'common' for you?

But ultimately, trials, like presidential campaigns, are just a distraction from what the site is about.....

If presidential campaigns are just a distraction, then why have you and TUF resorted to making one before anyone else did when you allegedly can program updates on your own?
Kevin24018 : "He's just so mean it makes me want to ball up my fists and stamp on the ground"

7/14/16 = The Presidency Dies

DDO: THE MOVIE = http://www.debate.org...
http://www.debate.org...

VP of DDO from Dec 14th 2014 to Jan 1st 2015
imabench
Posts: 21,206
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12/6/2013 11:27:10 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/6/2013 10:36:54 AM, Heineken wrote:
TUF 2014
http://ddoelite.com...

Can you go be a retard somewhere else Heineken? This is a presidential debate for f*cks sake, have some respect.
Kevin24018 : "He's just so mean it makes me want to ball up my fists and stamp on the ground"

7/14/16 = The Presidency Dies

DDO: THE MOVIE = http://www.debate.org...
http://www.debate.org...

VP of DDO from Dec 14th 2014 to Jan 1st 2015
Heineken
Posts: 1,230
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12/6/2013 11:54:10 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/6/2013 11:27:10 AM, imabench wrote:
At 12/6/2013 10:36:54 AM, Heineken wrote:
TUF 2014
http://ddoelite.com...

Can you go be a retard somewhere else Heineken? This is a presidential debate for f*cks sake, have some respect.

DDOElite.com is sponsoring the ad campaign for any candidate that isn't you. I will solicit in any public forum of my choosing.
Vidi, vici, veni.
(I saw, I conquered, I came.)
Citrakayah
Posts: 1,500
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12/6/2013 11:56:24 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/6/2013 11:54:10 AM, Heineken wrote:
At 12/6/2013 11:27:10 AM, imabench wrote:
At 12/6/2013 10:36:54 AM, Heineken wrote:
TUF 2014
http://ddoelite.com...

Can you go be a retard somewhere else Heineken? This is a presidential debate for f*cks sake, have some respect.

DDOElite.com is sponsoring the ad campaign for any candidate that isn't you. I will solicit in any public forum of my choosing.

1. /Any/ candidate?
2. No, you won't--or, rather, you won't if you have any respect for the presidential campaign whatsoever... which is independent of respect for Imabench. By spamming, you're insulting TUF, Mikal, myself, and ClassicRobert.
Heineken
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12/6/2013 12:02:05 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/6/2013 11:56:24 AM, Citrakayah wrote:
At 12/6/2013 11:54:10 AM, Heineken wrote:
At 12/6/2013 11:27:10 AM, imabench wrote:
At 12/6/2013 10:36:54 AM, Heineken wrote:
TUF 2014
http://ddoelite.com...

Can you go be a retard somewhere else Heineken? This is a presidential debate for f*cks sake, have some respect.

DDOElite.com is sponsoring the ad campaign for any candidate that isn't you. I will solicit in any public forum of my choosing.

1. /Any/ candidate?

You don't count. You're his VP.

2. No, you won't--or, rather, you won't if you have any respect for the presidential campaign whatsoever... which is independent of respect for Imabench. By spamming, you're insulting TUF, Mikal, myself, and ClassicRobert.

I'm not spamming. I'm citing campaign posters.

If you want a Presidential debate...why don't you actually debate?
This is a forum....as in...public domain discussion, so don't be ridiculous.
Vidi, vici, veni.
(I saw, I conquered, I came.)
Citrakayah
Posts: 1,500
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12/6/2013 12:05:17 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/6/2013 12:02:05 PM, Heineken wrote:
1. /Any/ candidate?

You don't count. You're his VP.

Mostly I'm just wondering how much of a grudge you have against him. Like, anyone as in anti-atheist?

2. No, you won't--or, rather, you won't if you have any respect for the presidential campaign whatsoever... which is independent of respect for Imabench. By spamming, you're insulting TUF, Mikal, myself, and ClassicRobert.

I'm not spamming. I'm citing campaign posters.

If you want a Presidential debate...why don't you actually debate?
This is a forum....as in...public domain discussion, so don't be ridiculous.

You're citing copy-paste posters that are basically the same thing. People were asked not to do this in this thread. That includes you. It's called being polite.
imabench
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12/6/2013 12:13:36 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/6/2013 11:54:10 AM, Heineken wrote:
At 12/6/2013 11:27:10 AM, imabench wrote:
At 12/6/2013 10:36:54 AM, Heineken wrote:
TUF 2014
http://ddoelite.com...

Can you go be a retard somewhere else Heineken? This is a presidential debate for f*cks sake, have some respect.

DDOElite.com is sponsoring the ad campaign for any candidate that isn't you. I will solicit in any public forum of my choosing.

^ See TUF, this was exactly what I was talking about when I mentioned how retarded sh**heads come here not to contribute to the site in any way at all, and instead go around trying to pick fights.
Kevin24018 : "He's just so mean it makes me want to ball up my fists and stamp on the ground"

7/14/16 = The Presidency Dies

DDO: THE MOVIE = http://www.debate.org...
http://www.debate.org...

VP of DDO from Dec 14th 2014 to Jan 1st 2015
Heineken
Posts: 1,230
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12/6/2013 12:14:48 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/6/2013 12:05:17 PM, Citrakayah wrote:
At 12/6/2013 12:02:05 PM, Heineken wrote:
1. /Any/ candidate?

You don't count. You're his VP.

Mostly I'm just wondering how much of a grudge you have against him. Like, anyone as in anti-atheist?

No, I don't have a problem with anyone. I'm just supporting the candidate. Please don't take it personally.

2. No, you won't--or, rather, you won't if you have any respect for the presidential campaign whatsoever... which is independent of respect for Imabench. By spamming, you're insulting TUF, Mikal, myself, and ClassicRobert.

I'm not spamming. I'm citing campaign posters.

If you want a Presidential debate...why don't you actually debate?
This is a forum....as in...public domain discussion, so don't be ridiculous.

You're citing copy-paste posters that are basically the same thing. People were asked not to do this in this thread. That includes you. It's called being polite.

I'll start a new thread if you'd like....mostly because you didn't try to start a flame war.
Vidi, vici, veni.
(I saw, I conquered, I came.)
imabench
Posts: 21,206
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12/6/2013 12:14:55 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/6/2013 12:05:17 PM, Citrakayah wrote:
At 12/6/2013 12:02:05 PM, Heineken wrote:
1. /Any/ candidate?

You don't count. You're his VP.

Mostly I'm just wondering how much of a grudge you have against him. Like, anyone as in anti-atheist?

Picking petty fights with me is basically the whole meaning of his existence at this point

2. No, you won't--or, rather, you won't if you have any respect for the presidential campaign whatsoever... which is independent of respect for Imabench. By spamming, you're insulting TUF, Mikal, myself, and ClassicRobert.

I'm not spamming. I'm citing campaign posters.

If you want a Presidential debate...why don't you actually debate?
This is a forum....as in...public domain discussion, so don't be ridiculous.

You're citing copy-paste posters that are basically the same thing. People were asked not to do this in this thread. That includes you. It's called being polite.
Kevin24018 : "He's just so mean it makes me want to ball up my fists and stamp on the ground"

7/14/16 = The Presidency Dies

DDO: THE MOVIE = http://www.debate.org...
http://www.debate.org...

VP of DDO from Dec 14th 2014 to Jan 1st 2015
Heineken
Posts: 1,230
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12/6/2013 12:17:33 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/6/2013 12:13:36 PM, imabench wrote:
At 12/6/2013 11:54:10 AM, Heineken wrote:
At 12/6/2013 11:27:10 AM, imabench wrote:
At 12/6/2013 10:36:54 AM, Heineken wrote:
TUF 2014
http://ddoelite.com...

Can you go be a retard somewhere else Heineken? This is a presidential debate for f*cks sake, have some respect.

DDOElite.com is sponsoring the ad campaign for any candidate that isn't you. I will solicit in any public forum of my choosing.

^ See TUF, this was exactly what I was talking about when I mentioned how retarded sh**heads come here not to contribute to the site in any way at all, and instead go around trying to pick fights.

Lol...I'm going, I'm going. Continue, please....
Vidi, vici, veni.
(I saw, I conquered, I came.)
Citrakayah
Posts: 1,500
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12/6/2013 12:28:49 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/6/2013 12:13:36 PM, imabench wrote:
At 12/6/2013 11:54:10 AM, Heineken wrote:
At 12/6/2013 11:27:10 AM, imabench wrote:
At 12/6/2013 10:36:54 AM, Heineken wrote:
TUF 2014
http://ddoelite.com...

Can you go be a retard somewhere else Heineken? This is a presidential debate for f*cks sake, have some respect.

DDOElite.com is sponsoring the ad campaign for any candidate that isn't you. I will solicit in any public forum of my choosing.

^ See TUF, this was exactly what I was talking about when I mentioned how retarded sh**heads come here not to contribute to the site in any way at all, and instead go around trying to pick fights.

DISCLAIMER: As Imabench's publicity officer I would note that the Imabench/Citrakayah campaign does not propose banning someone who did something like this, though we do hold that it is a d!ck move.
imabench
Posts: 21,206
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12/6/2013 12:32:55 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/6/2013 12:28:49 PM, Citrakayah wrote:
At 12/6/2013 12:13:36 PM, imabench wrote:
At 12/6/2013 11:54:10 AM, Heineken wrote:
At 12/6/2013 11:27:10 AM, imabench wrote:
At 12/6/2013 10:36:54 AM, Heineken wrote:
TUF 2014
http://ddoelite.com...

Can you go be a retard somewhere else Heineken? This is a presidential debate for f*cks sake, have some respect.

DDOElite.com is sponsoring the ad campaign for any candidate that isn't you. I will solicit in any public forum of my choosing.

^ See TUF, this was exactly what I was talking about when I mentioned how retarded sh**heads come here not to contribute to the site in any way at all, and instead go around trying to pick fights.

DISCLAIMER: As Imabench's publicity officer I would note that the Imabench/Citrakayah campaign does not propose banning someone who did something like this

Im not saying he should be banned, im saying that it proves my point that there needs to be a crackdown on this kind of reckless and indifferent behavior by retarded people who are the scourge of DDO

though we do hold that it is a d!ck move.

Agreed
Kevin24018 : "He's just so mean it makes me want to ball up my fists and stamp on the ground"

7/14/16 = The Presidency Dies

DDO: THE MOVIE = http://www.debate.org...
http://www.debate.org...

VP of DDO from Dec 14th 2014 to Jan 1st 2015
Heineken
Posts: 1,230
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12/6/2013 12:38:15 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/6/2013 12:32:55 PM, imabench wrote:
At 12/6/2013 12:28:49 PM, Citrakayah wrote:
At 12/6/2013 12:13:36 PM, imabench wrote:
At 12/6/2013 11:54:10 AM, Heineken wrote:
At 12/6/2013 11:27:10 AM, imabench wrote:
At 12/6/2013 10:36:54 AM, Heineken wrote:
TUF 2014
http://ddoelite.com...

Can you go be a retard somewhere else Heineken? This is a presidential debate for f*cks sake, have some respect.

DDOElite.com is sponsoring the ad campaign for any candidate that isn't you. I will solicit in any public forum of my choosing.

^ See TUF, this was exactly what I was talking about when I mentioned how retarded sh**heads come here not to contribute to the site in any way at all, and instead go around trying to pick fights.

DISCLAIMER: As Imabench's publicity officer I would note that the Imabench/Citrakayah campaign does not propose banning someone who did something like this

Im not saying he should be banned, im saying that it proves my point that there needs to be a crackdown on this kind of reckless and indifferent behavior by retarded people who are the scourge of DDO

Question from the audience:

How would you crack down on a member, when he/she participates in a public forum by posting an image that is neither pornographic nor violent, nor uses foul language and is designed to inspire competition in a presidential campaign?

though we do hold that it is a d!ck move.

Agreed
Vidi, vici, veni.
(I saw, I conquered, I came.)
Citrakayah
Posts: 1,500
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12/6/2013 1:10:31 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/6/2013 12:38:15 PM, Heineken wrote:
At 12/6/2013 12:32:55 PM, imabench wrote:
At 12/6/2013 12:28:49 PM, Citrakayah wrote:
At 12/6/2013 12:13:36 PM, imabench wrote:
At 12/6/2013 11:54:10 AM, Heineken wrote:
At 12/6/2013 11:27:10 AM, imabench wrote:
At 12/6/2013 10:36:54 AM, Heineken wrote:
TUF 2014
http://ddoelite.com...

Can you go be a retard somewhere else Heineken? This is a presidential debate for f*cks sake, have some respect.

DDOElite.com is sponsoring the ad campaign for any candidate that isn't you. I will solicit in any public forum of my choosing.

^ See TUF, this was exactly what I was talking about when I mentioned how retarded sh**heads come here not to contribute to the site in any way at all, and instead go around trying to pick fights.

DISCLAIMER: As Imabench's publicity officer I would note that the Imabench/Citrakayah campaign does not propose banning someone who did something like this

Im not saying he should be banned, im saying that it proves my point that there needs to be a crackdown on this kind of reckless and indifferent behavior by retarded people who are the scourge of DDO

Question from the audience:

How would you crack down on a member, when he/she participates in a public forum by posting an image that is neither pornographic nor violent, nor uses foul language and is designed to inspire competition in a presidential campaign?

Question to the audience:

Would the moderators of a forum be in the right, should they tell someone who is taking a thread off topic, against the express wishes of the thread creator, to knock it off?
Heineken
Posts: 1,230
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12/6/2013 1:23:10 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/6/2013 1:10:31 PM, Citrakayah wrote:
At 12/6/2013 12:38:15 PM, Heineken wrote:
At 12/6/2013 12:32:55 PM, imabench wrote:
At 12/6/2013 12:28:49 PM, Citrakayah wrote:
At 12/6/2013 12:13:36 PM, imabench wrote:
At 12/6/2013 11:54:10 AM, Heineken wrote:
At 12/6/2013 11:27:10 AM, imabench wrote:
At 12/6/2013 10:36:54 AM, Heineken wrote:
TUF 2014
http://ddoelite.com...

Can you go be a retard somewhere else Heineken? This is a presidential debate for f*cks sake, have some respect.

DDOElite.com is sponsoring the ad campaign for any candidate that isn't you. I will solicit in any public forum of my choosing.

^ See TUF, this was exactly what I was talking about when I mentioned how retarded sh**heads come here not to contribute to the site in any way at all, and instead go around trying to pick fights.

DISCLAIMER: As Imabench's publicity officer I would note that the Imabench/Citrakayah campaign does not propose banning someone who did something like this

Im not saying he should be banned, im saying that it proves my point that there needs to be a crackdown on this kind of reckless and indifferent behavior by retarded people who are the scourge of DDO

Question from the audience:

How would you crack down on a member, when he/she participates in a public forum by posting an image that is neither pornographic nor violent, nor uses foul language and is designed to inspire competition in a presidential campaign?

Question to the audience:

Would the moderators of a forum be in the right, should they tell someone who is taking a thread off topic, against the express wishes of the thread creator, to knock it off?

I would respectfully ask the Candidate to refrain from answering a question with a question. However, to answer:
No. Juggle has expressed the rules of conduct in the terms of use, which have not been violated in this forum, except by Imabench, who resorted to slander and vulgarity.

I ask again, since it's part of your campaign platform:
How would you crack down on a member, when he/she participates in a public forum by posting an image that is neither pornographic nor violent, nor uses foul language and is designed to inspire competition in a presidential campaign?
Vidi, vici, veni.
(I saw, I conquered, I came.)