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My ten questions for presidential candidates

larztheloser
Posts: 857
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12/9/2013 12:07:53 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
1. Do you support the use of trials as part of your banning policy?

2. What would you do if you thought somebody should be banned but they hadn't broken any rule of the site?

3. What would you do if you had a genuine conflict of interest in resolving a dispute?

4. Do you have any experience with debating outside of debate.org, or any other life experience somehow relevant to the site?

5. What specific action(s) will you take to ensure communication is good between site leadership and all members, both in terms of accessibility and transparency?

6. Assuming Juggle lets you make only one change to the site, with the condition attached that the change must in some way help increase the site's traffic, what would you change?

7. Assuming Juggle makes a change you strongly disagree with, how would you respond?

8. Assuming Juggle does nothing, would you do anything to help improve the site's functionality?

9. How would your tournaments differ from existing offerings?

10. Will you do anything to ensure people move from polls / opinions towards voting / debates?
bsh1
Posts: 27,503
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12/9/2013 12:18:11 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/9/2013 12:07:53 AM, larztheloser wrote:
1. Do you support the use of trials as part of your banning policy?

For perm-bans, certainly.

2. What would you do if you thought somebody should be banned but they hadn't broken any rule of the site?

I would express my concerns to the Mods, lay out my argument, and trust in their good judgment.

3. What would you do if you had a genuine conflict of interest in resolving a dispute?

I would create an impartial advisory panel to make a recommendation. It is important to have perspective on key issues, and having someone else evaluate the issue is a great way to do that.

4. Do you have any experience with debating outside of debate.org, or any other life experience somehow relevant to the site?

I did LD for four years in high school. I have been to MD CFL States 4 times, CFL National 3 times, and have made the Octafinal round at CatNats once.

5. What specific action(s) will you take to ensure communication is good between site leadership and all members, both in terms of accessibility and transparency?

I would refer you to my platform. I would also be open to respond to any questions posed by members in the forums and via PM. Important decisions will be communicated, and I will included the community in deliberations as much as is practicable.

6. Assuming Juggle lets you make only one change to the site, with the condition attached that the change must in some way help increase the site's traffic, what would you change?

I would create a formal way to do tournaments on DDO.

7. Assuming Juggle makes a change you strongly disagree with, how would you respond?

I would solicit community support, and lobby Juggle vigorously to advocate on behalf of DDO.

8. Assuming Juggle does nothing, would you do anything to help improve the site's functionality?

I refer you again to my platform. Specifically, the increase in tournaments and the "debate of the month" could be enact sans Juggle's support.

9. How would your tournaments differ from existing offerings?

I would create an organized way for users to sign-up, conduct, and solicit participation in tournaments just as there is for mafia, as well as hosting some of my own.

10. Will you do anything to ensure people move from polls / opinions towards voting / debates?

Yes. I want to see the opinions section eliminated, but barring that, I think have tournaments for beginners could be a great way to ease new users into the debating side of things!
Live Long and Prosper

I'm a Bish.


"Twilight isn't just about obtuse metaphors between cannibalism and premarital sex, it also teaches us the futility of hope." - Raisor

"[Bsh1] is the Guinan of DDO." - ButterCatX

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Open Debate Topics Project: http://www.debate.org...
bsh1
Posts: 27,503
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12/9/2013 12:22:40 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
Also, to add to No. 10, I think it would also pay to hook new users up with established members who are willing to give them advice.

It would be an "Adopt-a-Noob" program. I suggested something like this a long time ago--I think now that I am running, this is a great platform to push for something like this.
Live Long and Prosper

I'm a Bish.


"Twilight isn't just about obtuse metaphors between cannibalism and premarital sex, it also teaches us the futility of hope." - Raisor

"[Bsh1] is the Guinan of DDO." - ButterCatX

Follow the DDOlympics
: http://www.debate.org...

Open Debate Topics Project: http://www.debate.org...
TUF
Posts: 21,297
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12/9/2013 3:32:29 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/9/2013 12:07:53 AM, larztheloser wrote:
1. Do you support the use of trials as part of your banning policy?

I dont think a banning policy is necessary for a president. I think trials can be useful for the most controversial of situations, but shouldn't have to be frequented. I think a stable moderator should give warnings, and make decisions based on whether such warnings were heeded.

2. What would you do if you thought somebody should be banned but they hadn't broken any rule of the site?

Again mod/pres, but I think it depends on what specifically what the alleged crime is. If someone is annoying, or making you angry they should only be dealt with in regards to how far they go with their antagonizing.

3. What would you do if you had a genuine conflict of interest in resolving a dispute?

Actually I am dealing with this right now. I have contacted a wise individual seeking advice, and plan on seeing how well it works. I will answer this question more specifically based on my results.

4. Do you have any experience with debating outside of debate.org, or any other life experience somehow relevant to the site?

I debated for 4 years before I graduated, and attended two national tournaments. I was most familiar with the lincoln douglas platform of debate, and also did well in humorous interp on the side.

5. What specific action(s) will you take to ensure communication is good between site leadership and all members, both in terms of accessibility and transparency?

Getting a clear base understanding of the needs for the leadership and the community are important. Once that is established, I can find the conflicts of interest, and work in finding a solution that works best for both sides.

6. Assuming Juggle lets you make only one change to the site, with the condition attached that the change must in some way help increase the site's traffic, what would you change?

I think it is important to get focus back on debating or voting. While there are many update ideas that would be beneficial, ultimately I think one of the best ideas I have heard so far is subscriptions that allow a member to customize there experience towards the direction best suited for them.

7. Assuming Juggle makes a change you strongly disagree with, how would you respond?

Expressing the conflict of interest with the community, and suggesting new ideas that can support their own wants as well as others. If every attempt to fix the effort fails, work with the community in other ways that detracts negative attention away from fhe update and focus on reinforcing the areas they care about more.

Reserving the rest of the questions for my next break.

8. Assuming Juggle does nothing, would you do anything to help improve the site's functionality?

9. How would your tournaments differ from existing offerings?

10. Will you do anything to ensure people move from polls / opinions towards voting / debates?
"I've got to go and grab a shirt" ~ Airmax1227
TUF
Posts: 21,297
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12/9/2013 9:24:50 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/9/2013 12:07:53 AM, larztheloser wrote:
8. Assuming Juggle does nothing, would you do anything to help improve the site's functionality?

I don't think it is right to make a platform entirely based off of external forces. I have included things in my platform that give a good reason for them to, but if they don't my emphasis is to show that results can come without updates of the like. I think pretty much any update results we want can be accomplished through other means. Helping voting, member appreciation, focusing site direction, community building, all can be done without external forces.

9. How would your tournaments differ from existing offerings?

I think if I were to start and host tournaments, I would do it with the goal of getting competitions for different skill levels, as airmax did. I also like the idea of doing prized ones as thett3 suggested for the winner.

10. Will you do anything to ensure people move from polls / opinions towards voting / debates?

Making debating more popular, and getting better debates out there, seems like an efficient way to attract attention away from those things as much. If people see silly troll debates, or poor ones, they will be less likely to want to join the debate side.
"I've got to go and grab a shirt" ~ Airmax1227
Raisor
Posts: 4,459
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12/9/2013 9:21:02 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/9/2013 12:07:53 AM, larztheloser wrote:

2. What would you do if you thought somebody should be banned but they hadn't broken any rule of the site?

I want to piggy back:

Under what circumstances would you consider someone deserving of a ban without having broken site rules?
uniqueusername
Posts: 41
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12/9/2013 9:40:05 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/9/2013 9:21:02 PM, Raisor wrote:
At 12/9/2013 12:07:53 AM, larztheloser wrote:

2. What would you do if you thought somebody should be banned but they hadn't broken any rule of the site?

I want to piggy back:

Under what circumstances would you consider someone deserving of a ban without having broken site rules?

like if they are too sexy to be a debating nerd and you want to help the porn industry by forcing them to find a new hobby than debating so they resort to porn and their beautiful body goes to it.
http://tinyurl.com...

The World is an a$$hole and I'm the next big sh*t.
Ore_Ele
Posts: 25,980
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12/9/2013 10:41:57 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/9/2013 12:07:53 AM, larztheloser wrote:
I am not running but some of these sound like fun to answer.

1. Do you support the use of trials as part of your banning policy?

Probably not, except as a show on the really extreme so that people think I actually care.

2. What would you do if you thought somebody should be banned but they hadn't broken any rule of the site?

What any fascist does, either make a new rule or find some way to twist an old rule.

3. What would you do if you had a genuine conflict of interest in resolving a dispute?


Okay, this one I'll answer seriously. I actually have removed myself from making decisions because they were about a poor vote (which was a clear poor vote) that was on a debate that I had also voted on, and that one of the senators did not care for my vote. Had I removed the vote, it would have cost him the win and that would have pissed him off.

4. Do you have any experience with debating outside of debate.org, or any other life experience somehow relevant to the site?


Yes, I'm married, I have a ton of experience losing arguments even though I'm right.

5. What specific action(s) will you take to ensure communication is good between site leadership and all members, both in terms of accessibility and transparency?


None

6. Assuming Juggle lets you make only one change to the site, with the condition attached that the change must in some way help increase the site's traffic, what would you change?


If it can be any single change, regardless of the effort that they need to put in, it would be to have seasonal leader boards with seasonal prizes or recognition.
7. Assuming Juggle makes a change you strongly disagree with, how would you respond?


Be as supportive as I can in hopes that they see something I don't. I would try to make any change as effective as possible. I am perfectly fine with being proven wrong.

8. Assuming Juggle does nothing, would you do anything to help improve the site's functionality?

Yes

9. How would your tournaments differ from existing offerings?

I wouldn't do any.

10. Will you do anything to ensure people move from polls / opinions towards voting / debates?

Yes
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
YYW
Posts: 36,242
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12/9/2013 10:59:34 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
I'm not running, but like Ore-Ele, I love these questions... so, I'll answer them too.

At 12/9/2013 12:07:53 AM, larztheloser wrote:
1. Do you support the use of trials as part of your banning policy?

I support trials only to the extent that the public spectacle of the trial would remind the community of what is not acceptable while giving the community a voice in determining who should be banned if a member has not explicitly broken a rule.

2. What would you do if you thought somebody should be banned but they hadn't broken any rule of the site?

Let the community decide. Everyone seems to be afraid of "mob rule" but I trust the DDO community not to devolve to mobocracy. I think that the community can decide, within a certain line of parameters, when a person who has not clearly broken any rule but whose presence is nevertheless is at odds with the community.

3. What would you do if you had a genuine conflict of interest in resolving a dispute?

I'd do the best I thought was right for the given situation. I think that drawing a line between "genuine" and some other kind of conflict of interest is absurd. Either there is a conflict of interest, or there isn't. So, the question is not whether or not a conflict exists -but rather if the conflict is sufficient to hinder my ability to make a fair -even if not impartial- decision. However, if I made a mistake the community could always impeach me... perhaps even with a trial. Live by the sword, die by it too...

4. Do you have any experience with debating outside of debate.org, or any other life experience somehow relevant to the site?

Yeah, I do. Some people know what I have done, other's don't. I think that most of that is irrelevant to what a president ought to do, though. The question is whether or not a president can make good decisions, which are good because they are in the best interests of the community and its members.

5. What specific action(s) will you take to ensure communication is good between site leadership and all members, both in terms of accessibility and transparency?

I think talking to people works well enough. I would publicize a lot of what I did, too, for practical reasons.

6. Assuming Juggle lets you make only one change to the site, with the condition attached that the change must in some way help increase the site's traffic, what would you change?

Only one change? Hmmm.... I would have Juggle sell the site to someone else that was more interested in building the community here than implementing cheap gimmicks to rip off CreateDebate. That would be my change. Then, once DDO was out of juggle's hands, I'd work with the new people to change the fvcking color scheme, purge the opinion section, purge the polls section, and make this site only about debating.

7. Assuming Juggle makes a change you strongly disagree with, how would you respond?

Depends on what the change was -and I'm hesitant to speculate beyond my own hypotheticals. If Juggle proposed doing something that would fundamentally destroy the community (like purging the forums), I'd fight them in any and every way I could. If Juggle was proposing to make the entire site orange (I hate the color orange), I'd be irritated, but that's not the sort of thing that would launch me into a crusade.

8. Assuming Juggle does nothing, would you do anything to help improve the site's functionality?

The community needs clarity, and identity. We need someone who we can rally around, who can stand as not only the site's leader and liaison with Juggle, but someone who represents the best in us all. Someone who believes and lives the ideals that embody this community, and who behaves according to the most basic principles of who we are. I know that's what I'd like to see. Implementing a new series of rules isn't going to make people do the right thing for the site. I want to try to make people want to do the right thing -but I think I can make progress to that end as president or not -so, I'm not running.

9. How would your tournaments differ from existing offerings?

I like Bsh1's tournament and ClassicRobert's too. It works. I'm not going to fix it, because it isn't broken.

10. Will you do anything to ensure people move from polls / opinions towards voting / debates?

I want people to be good members of the site. I'll do almost anything to make that happen.
000ike
Posts: 11,196
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12/9/2013 11:13:32 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/9/2013 10:59:34 PM, YYW wrote:

Let the community decide. Everyone seems to be afraid of "mob rule" but I trust the DDO community not to devolve to mobocracy. I think that the community can decide, within a certain line of parameters, when a person who has not clearly broken any rule but whose presence is nevertheless is at odds with the community.

lol what exactly is mob rule then? If you can't identify anything in the code of conduct that prohibits the behavior then maybe the flaw is with the code itself. But to invent reasons to kick people out through collective disapproval is mob rule in purest form. This site has a high propensity for mob rule and has exhibited it on multiple occasions. Perhaps you wouldn't qualify such behavior as mob rule if you've deemed it justified... but I think that misses the point of the term. Of course the people who constitute the mob will think their reaction is just, but the issue is that the method ignores due process.
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
YYW
Posts: 36,242
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12/9/2013 11:17:08 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/9/2013 11:13:32 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 12/9/2013 10:59:34 PM, YYW wrote:

Let the community decide. Everyone seems to be afraid of "mob rule" but I trust the DDO community not to devolve to mobocracy. I think that the community can decide, within a certain line of parameters, when a person who has not clearly broken any rule but whose presence is nevertheless is at odds with the community.

lol what exactly is mob rule then? If you can't identify anything in the code of conduct that prohibits the behavior then maybe the flaw is with the code itself. But to invent reasons to kick people out through collective disapproval is mob rule in purest form. This site has a high propensity for mob rule and has exhibited it on multiple occasions. Perhaps you wouldn't qualify such behavior as mob rule if you've deemed it justified... but I think that misses the point of the term. Of course the people who constitute the mob will think their reaction is just, but the issue is that the method ignores due process.

Is it your notion that mob rule is always a bad thing?
000ike
Posts: 11,196
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12/9/2013 11:17:40 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/9/2013 11:17:08 PM, YYW wrote:
At 12/9/2013 11:13:32 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 12/9/2013 10:59:34 PM, YYW wrote:

Let the community decide. Everyone seems to be afraid of "mob rule" but I trust the DDO community not to devolve to mobocracy. I think that the community can decide, within a certain line of parameters, when a person who has not clearly broken any rule but whose presence is nevertheless is at odds with the community.

lol what exactly is mob rule then? If you can't identify anything in the code of conduct that prohibits the behavior then maybe the flaw is with the code itself. But to invent reasons to kick people out through collective disapproval is mob rule in purest form. This site has a high propensity for mob rule and has exhibited it on multiple occasions. Perhaps you wouldn't qualify such behavior as mob rule if you've deemed it justified... but I think that misses the point of the term. Of course the people who constitute the mob will think their reaction is just, but the issue is that the method ignores due process.

Is it your notion that mob rule is always a bad thing?

yes.
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
YYW
Posts: 36,242
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12/9/2013 11:21:36 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/9/2013 11:17:40 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 12/9/2013 11:17:08 PM, YYW wrote:
At 12/9/2013 11:13:32 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 12/9/2013 10:59:34 PM, YYW wrote:

Let the community decide. Everyone seems to be afraid of "mob rule" but I trust the DDO community not to devolve to mobocracy. I think that the community can decide, within a certain line of parameters, when a person who has not clearly broken any rule but whose presence is nevertheless is at odds with the community.

lol what exactly is mob rule then? If you can't identify anything in the code of conduct that prohibits the behavior then maybe the flaw is with the code itself. But to invent reasons to kick people out through collective disapproval is mob rule in purest form. This site has a high propensity for mob rule and has exhibited it on multiple occasions. Perhaps you wouldn't qualify such behavior as mob rule if you've deemed it justified... but I think that misses the point of the term. Of course the people who constitute the mob will think their reaction is just, but the issue is that the method ignores due process.

Is it your notion that mob rule is always a bad thing?

yes.

Does any time that a majority of people agree to something qualify as mob rule?
000ike
Posts: 11,196
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12/9/2013 11:27:12 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/9/2013 11:21:36 PM, YYW wrote:
At 12/9/2013 11:17:40 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 12/9/2013 11:17:08 PM, YYW wrote:
At 12/9/2013 11:13:32 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 12/9/2013 10:59:34 PM, YYW wrote:

Let the community decide. Everyone seems to be afraid of "mob rule" but I trust the DDO community not to devolve to mobocracy. I think that the community can decide, within a certain line of parameters, when a person who has not clearly broken any rule but whose presence is nevertheless is at odds with the community.

lol what exactly is mob rule then? If you can't identify anything in the code of conduct that prohibits the behavior then maybe the flaw is with the code itself. But to invent reasons to kick people out through collective disapproval is mob rule in purest form. This site has a high propensity for mob rule and has exhibited it on multiple occasions. Perhaps you wouldn't qualify such behavior as mob rule if you've deemed it justified... but I think that misses the point of the term. Of course the people who constitute the mob will think their reaction is just, but the issue is that the method ignores due process.

Is it your notion that mob rule is always a bad thing?

yes.

Does any time that a majority of people agree to something qualify as mob rule?

No. Anytime a majority of people act without following some predefined system for addressing the issue, that is mob rule.... especially when such a system DOES exist, and the mob has chosen to ignore it in favor of their collective judgement. Rules ensure fairness and consistency. In the absence of rules, the whims and emotions of the mob reign.
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
YYW
Posts: 36,242
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12/9/2013 11:30:18 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/9/2013 11:27:12 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 12/9/2013 11:21:36 PM, YYW wrote:
At 12/9/2013 11:17:40 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 12/9/2013 11:17:08 PM, YYW wrote:
At 12/9/2013 11:13:32 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 12/9/2013 10:59:34 PM, YYW wrote:

Let the community decide. Everyone seems to be afraid of "mob rule" but I trust the DDO community not to devolve to mobocracy. I think that the community can decide, within a certain line of parameters, when a person who has not clearly broken any rule but whose presence is nevertheless is at odds with the community.

lol what exactly is mob rule then? If you can't identify anything in the code of conduct that prohibits the behavior then maybe the flaw is with the code itself. But to invent reasons to kick people out through collective disapproval is mob rule in purest form. This site has a high propensity for mob rule and has exhibited it on multiple occasions. Perhaps you wouldn't qualify such behavior as mob rule if you've deemed it justified... but I think that misses the point of the term. Of course the people who constitute the mob will think their reaction is just, but the issue is that the method ignores due process.

Is it your notion that mob rule is always a bad thing?

yes.

Does any time that a majority of people agree to something qualify as mob rule?

No. Anytime a majority of people act without following some predefined system for addressing the issue, that is mob rule.... especially when such a system DOES exist, and the mob has chosen to ignore it in favor of their collective judgement. Rules ensure fairness and consistency. In the absence of rules, the whims and emotions of the mob reign.

What if the rules are insufficient to address a situation?
000ike
Posts: 11,196
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12/9/2013 11:33:17 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/9/2013 11:30:18 PM, YYW wrote:
At 12/9/2013 11:27:12 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 12/9/2013 11:21:36 PM, YYW wrote:
At 12/9/2013 11:17:40 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 12/9/2013 11:17:08 PM, YYW wrote:
At 12/9/2013 11:13:32 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 12/9/2013 10:59:34 PM, YYW wrote:

Let the community decide. Everyone seems to be afraid of "mob rule" but I trust the DDO community not to devolve to mobocracy. I think that the community can decide, within a certain line of parameters, when a person who has not clearly broken any rule but whose presence is nevertheless is at odds with the community.

lol what exactly is mob rule then? If you can't identify anything in the code of conduct that prohibits the behavior then maybe the flaw is with the code itself. But to invent reasons to kick people out through collective disapproval is mob rule in purest form. This site has a high propensity for mob rule and has exhibited it on multiple occasions. Perhaps you wouldn't qualify such behavior as mob rule if you've deemed it justified... but I think that misses the point of the term. Of course the people who constitute the mob will think their reaction is just, but the issue is that the method ignores due process.

Is it your notion that mob rule is always a bad thing?

yes.

Does any time that a majority of people agree to something qualify as mob rule?

No. Anytime a majority of people act without following some predefined system for addressing the issue, that is mob rule.... especially when such a system DOES exist, and the mob has chosen to ignore it in favor of their collective judgement. Rules ensure fairness and consistency. In the absence of rules, the whims and emotions of the mob reign.

What if the rules are insufficient to address a situation?

Then we should have anticipated the situation and changed the rules in advance. There's something very crude and unfair about inventing new rules to address one situation - especially if that situation isn't could have reasonably been anticipated.

... as in, on an online website, there really should be no circumstance under which we ignore the rules and go with the mob's judgement.
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
YYW
Posts: 36,242
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12/9/2013 11:38:23 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/9/2013 11:33:17 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 12/9/2013 11:30:18 PM, YYW wrote:
At 12/9/2013 11:27:12 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 12/9/2013 11:21:36 PM, YYW wrote:
At 12/9/2013 11:17:40 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 12/9/2013 11:17:08 PM, YYW wrote:
At 12/9/2013 11:13:32 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 12/9/2013 10:59:34 PM, YYW wrote:

Let the community decide. Everyone seems to be afraid of "mob rule" but I trust the DDO community not to devolve to mobocracy. I think that the community can decide, within a certain line of parameters, when a person who has not clearly broken any rule but whose presence is nevertheless is at odds with the community.

lol what exactly is mob rule then? If you can't identify anything in the code of conduct that prohibits the behavior then maybe the flaw is with the code itself. But to invent reasons to kick people out through collective disapproval is mob rule in purest form. This site has a high propensity for mob rule and has exhibited it on multiple occasions. Perhaps you wouldn't qualify such behavior as mob rule if you've deemed it justified... but I think that misses the point of the term. Of course the people who constitute the mob will think their reaction is just, but the issue is that the method ignores due process.

Is it your notion that mob rule is always a bad thing?

yes.

Does any time that a majority of people agree to something qualify as mob rule?

No. Anytime a majority of people act without following some predefined system for addressing the issue, that is mob rule.... especially when such a system DOES exist, and the mob has chosen to ignore it in favor of their collective judgement. Rules ensure fairness and consistency. In the absence of rules, the whims and emotions of the mob reign.

What if the rules are insufficient to address a situation?

Then we should have anticipated the situation and changed the rules in advance.

Hard to anticipate novel situations.... because they are novel.

There's something very crude and unfair about inventing new rules to address one situation - especially if that situation isn't could have reasonably been anticipated.

It's not about inventing new rules. It's about having a guiding set of principles that determine right and wrong, and balancing those principles to render a just outcome in a situation -novel or not.

... as in, on an online website, there really should be no circumstance under which we ignore the rules and go with the mob's judgement.

Rules are good, but they're not the final word. What's right and wrong is the final word.
000ike
Posts: 11,196
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12/9/2013 11:45:00 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/9/2013 11:38:23 PM, YYW wrote:
At 12/9/2013 11:33:17 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 12/9/2013 11:30:18 PM, YYW wrote:
At 12/9/2013 11:27:12 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 12/9/2013 11:21:36 PM, YYW wrote:
At 12/9/2013 11:17:40 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 12/9/2013 11:17:08 PM, YYW wrote:
At 12/9/2013 11:13:32 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 12/9/2013 10:59:34 PM, YYW wrote:

Let the community decide. Everyone seems to be afraid of "mob rule" but I trust the DDO community not to devolve to mobocracy. I think that the community can decide, within a certain line of parameters, when a person who has not clearly broken any rule but whose presence is nevertheless is at odds with the community.

lol what exactly is mob rule then? If you can't identify anything in the code of conduct that prohibits the behavior then maybe the flaw is with the code itself. But to invent reasons to kick people out through collective disapproval is mob rule in purest form. This site has a high propensity for mob rule and has exhibited it on multiple occasions. Perhaps you wouldn't qualify such behavior as mob rule if you've deemed it justified... but I think that misses the point of the term. Of course the people who constitute the mob will think their reaction is just, but the issue is that the method ignores due process.

Is it your notion that mob rule is always a bad thing?

yes.

Does any time that a majority of people agree to something qualify as mob rule?

No. Anytime a majority of people act without following some predefined system for addressing the issue, that is mob rule.... especially when such a system DOES exist, and the mob has chosen to ignore it in favor of their collective judgement. Rules ensure fairness and consistency. In the absence of rules, the whims and emotions of the mob reign.

What if the rules are insufficient to address a situation?

Then we should have anticipated the situation and changed the rules in advance.

Hard to anticipate novel situations.... because they are novel.

There's something very crude and unfair about inventing new rules to address one situation - especially if that situation isn't could have reasonably been anticipated.

It's not about inventing new rules. It's about having a guiding set of principles that determine right and wrong, and balancing those principles to render a just outcome in a situation -novel or not.

... as in, on an online website, there really should be no circumstance under which we ignore the rules and go with the mob's judgement.

Rules are good, but they're not the final word. What's right and wrong is the final word.

we're not in disagreement over the guiding set of principles. Frankly, I think that's the function of a code of conduct. If the behavior is truly objectionable there must be some principle we can refer to to address it. If you're arguing that we can invent principles not covered under the terms of service or code of conduct based on some ridiculous perception of right and wrong, then I don't agree with that. The principle must be there. It must already exist. The rules should be broad enough that varying interpretations cover just about every possible misdemeanor. If they're not then the rules were poorly drafted and the site has no justification for punishing the behavior.
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
YYW
Posts: 36,242
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12/9/2013 11:48:44 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/9/2013 11:45:00 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 12/9/2013 11:38:23 PM, YYW wrote:
At 12/9/2013 11:33:17 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 12/9/2013 11:30:18 PM, YYW wrote:
At 12/9/2013 11:27:12 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 12/9/2013 11:21:36 PM, YYW wrote:
At 12/9/2013 11:17:40 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 12/9/2013 11:17:08 PM, YYW wrote:
At 12/9/2013 11:13:32 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 12/9/2013 10:59:34 PM, YYW wrote:

Let the community decide. Everyone seems to be afraid of "mob rule" but I trust the DDO community not to devolve to mobocracy. I think that the community can decide, within a certain line of parameters, when a person who has not clearly broken any rule but whose presence is nevertheless is at odds with the community.

lol what exactly is mob rule then? If you can't identify anything in the code of conduct that prohibits the behavior then maybe the flaw is with the code itself. But to invent reasons to kick people out through collective disapproval is mob rule in purest form. This site has a high propensity for mob rule and has exhibited it on multiple occasions. Perhaps you wouldn't qualify such behavior as mob rule if you've deemed it justified... but I think that misses the point of the term. Of course the people who constitute the mob will think their reaction is just, but the issue is that the method ignores due process.

Is it your notion that mob rule is always a bad thing?

yes.

Does any time that a majority of people agree to something qualify as mob rule?

No. Anytime a majority of people act without following some predefined system for addressing the issue, that is mob rule.... especially when such a system DOES exist, and the mob has chosen to ignore it in favor of their collective judgement. Rules ensure fairness and consistency. In the absence of rules, the whims and emotions of the mob reign.

What if the rules are insufficient to address a situation?

Then we should have anticipated the situation and changed the rules in advance.

Hard to anticipate novel situations.... because they are novel.

There's something very crude and unfair about inventing new rules to address one situation - especially if that situation isn't could have reasonably been anticipated.

It's not about inventing new rules. It's about having a guiding set of principles that determine right and wrong, and balancing those principles to render a just outcome in a situation -novel or not.

... as in, on an online website, there really should be no circumstance under which we ignore the rules and go with the mob's judgement.

Rules are good, but they're not the final word. What's right and wrong is the final word.

we're not in disagreement over the guiding set of principles. Frankly, I think that's the function of a code of conduct. If the behavior is truly objectionable there must be some principle we can refer to to address it.

Yup, and I think that balancing those principles is a difficult thing to do -which is why I think it's best left to the people than to one person.

If you're arguing that we can invent principles not covered under the terms of service or code of conduct based on some ridiculous perception of right and wrong, then I don't agree with that.

I'm not. I'm saying that there are principles which make this community what it is, and it is against those principles that we measure whether a person's behavior is acceptable or not. The principles aren't new, they just are. They have been for communities before ours, and they will be for communities like ours long after DDO is gone.

The principle must be there. It must already exist.

Don't worry, they do.

The rules should be broad enough that varying interpretations cover just about every possible misdemeanor.

Well, idk... maybe. But we're not talking about misdemeanors, here. We're talking -in the context of banning- an accumulation of a whole lot of bad. Bad, to a degree that it would be enough to consider banning someone.
JonathanDJ
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12/11/2013 3:18:44 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/9/2013 9:40:05 PM, uniqueusername wrote:
At 12/9/2013 9:21:02 PM, Raisor wrote:
At 12/9/2013 12:07:53 AM, larztheloser wrote:

2. What would you do if you thought somebody should be banned but they hadn't broken any rule of the site?

I want to piggy back:

Under what circumstances would you consider someone deserving of a ban without having broken site rules?

like if they are too sexy to be a debating nerd and you want to help the porn industry by forcing them to find a new hobby than debating so they resort to porn and their beautiful body goes to it.

This as&hole coward fu@k uniqueusername, has a habit of insulting peoples mothers with really vile sh1t and they like a pu&sy running away and hiding.