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Amidst the twists and turns

TUF
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12/9/2013 12:28:16 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
Hello debate.org! There has been many twists and turns in this election, and I get the feeling the community is largely dis-oriented with all of it. I can definitely understand this. This is definitely one of the craziest elections I have ever seen. I just want to let you know, the amidst all of the craziness, I choose to push through the challenges. I think this has been a big learning experience so far, and I can only now get a glimpse of what I feel airmax has had to deal with throughout his election. I came into the election fully prepared for the emotional and mental stress I might have to endure. Principally, I don"t believe in losing motivation, or quitting at a decent challenge. If anything my drive to continue has only strengthened.

Unfortunately this all happened at an inconvenient time for me. Since some of you have been speculating the order of events, let me be clear exactly what has been going on. I have been at drill the past couple of days, and only finally returned home. I got a 2 hour nap, and am now straight back to work. In a time period of 10 minutes I could spare in getting ready for work, I have had to take in 1. My VP"s retraction without any communication or notification whatsoever, 2. New competition in the election with the support of my own previous VP, and 3. An interesting offer from Cody to be my VP.

I would be lying if I said that this wasn"t a lot to take in. But I refuse to let any of this change who I am, and to look at the whole thing as a learning experience. As far as conflict resolution goes, I invite anyone to read my discussion with YYW in "the ideal president" thread, which is where I am led to believe CR may have been inspired to such a decision. While I don"t know if the entire conversation was read or not, I can understand that it doesn"t really matter. The perception of large amounts of quotation, many capitalizations from one party, and passionate words can give the appearance of a "flame war". While the entire discussion for me was simply to grasp an understanding, I should have realized much earlier that such could not come of the conversation. And because perception is everything, I can understand where one might have been led to think that conflict resolution is an issue.

Because there are speculations currently arising of malicious intent in my choosing of a VP, let me attempt to put them at rest. My campaign is still the same. I still believe in accomplishing everything I set out to do, and am not deterred by a little challenge. I appreciate it if anything, and hope to learn and grow from all of this. Cody is someone in whom I have a deep respect for. Had I not been running myself, I think I may have been on board with his presidency with a lot more understanding than he initially received from the user base. With Cody"s offer, I accepted immediately upon being asked. The decision was hasty, yes. And I proudly do not regret accepting it instantaneously. I have known Cody for a long time, and I know what he can do. Even my previous VP can attest to the respect I have mentioned for Cody. Despite popular opinion, I think I viewed him as the strongest competition so far, despite poll results, and member support. I was actually surprised that Cody didn"t get more support at first. I realize that many members were not directly familiar with him, however, and can understand the lack of immediate support. Because of my experience with Cody, his character, values, and intelligence, I don"t think much consideration was needed in joining together with him. In fact, I think it would be rather silly of me to refuse such an offer, as I have so much I can learn from a figure. Cody has the experience of a successful presidency, and I think combined with my drive for a positive change, we can make great things happen upon being elected.

So going forward, you can expect the same efforts and motivations behind my platform, and elections. Despite accusations to the contrary, this is entirely about service to me. If I didn"t think I could make a positive difference on the web site, I wouldn"t be running. There is no personal gain in this for me, outside of the satisfaction that I have helped served the community that I love. Because there are accusations of me having different motivations for trying to quickly get into office, I can say that if not elected, I will still put my utmost effort into bettering the website, as I have in the past.

I am a debater at heart, which is why I am here. As a debater, I seek to understand and this nature may have worked against me in my discussion with YYW. This entire ideal has been a learning experience, and despite any negative feelings towards me, I don"t plan on letting them impede my ability to lead. If elected, every member will be treated and valued the same by me regardless of the agreeability. This is one trait I have always admired within airmax, and will strive to uphold myself.

"

Any questions, comments, concerns? Feel free to ask away as usual.

"
"I've got to go and grab a shirt" ~ Airmax1227
Mikal
Posts: 11,270
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12/9/2013 12:31:33 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/9/2013 12:28:16 AM, TUF wrote:
Hello debate.org! There has been many twists and turns in this election, and I get the feeling the community is largely dis-oriented with all of it. I can definitely understand this. This is definitely one of the craziest elections I have ever seen. I just want to let you know, the amidst all of the craziness, I choose to push through the challenges. I think this has been a big learning experience so far, and I can only now get a glimpse of what I feel airmax has had to deal with throughout his election. I came into the election fully prepared for the emotional and mental stress I might have to endure. Principally, I don"t believe in losing motivation, or quitting at a decent challenge. If anything my drive to continue has only strengthened.

Unfortunately this all happened at an inconvenient time for me. Since some of you have been speculating the order of events, let me be clear exactly what has been going on. I have been at drill the past couple of days, and only finally returned home. I got a 2 hour nap, and am now straight back to work. In a time period of 10 minutes I could spare in getting ready for work, I have had to take in 1. My VP"s retraction without any communication or notification whatsoever, 2. New competition in the election with the support of my own previous VP, and 3. An interesting offer from Cody to be my VP.

I would be lying if I said that this wasn"t a lot to take in. But I refuse to let any of this change who I am, and to look at the whole thing as a learning experience. As far as conflict resolution goes, I invite anyone to read my discussion with YYW in "the ideal president" thread, which is where I am led to believe CR may have been inspired to such a decision. While I don"t know if the entire conversation was read or not, I can understand that it doesn"t really matter. The perception of large amounts of quotation, many capitalizations from one party, and passionate words can give the appearance of a "flame war". While the entire discussion for me was simply to grasp an understanding, I should have realized much earlier that such could not come of the conversation. And because perception is everything, I can understand where one might have been led to think that conflict resolution is an issue.

Because there are speculations currently arising of malicious intent in my choosing of a VP, let me attempt to put them at rest. My campaign is still the same. I still believe in accomplishing everything I set out to do, and am not deterred by a little challenge. I appreciate it if anything, and hope to learn and grow from all of this. Cody is someone in whom I have a deep respect for. Had I not been running myself, I think I may have been on board with his presidency with a lot more understanding than he initially received from the user base. With Cody"s offer, I accepted immediately upon being asked. The decision was hasty, yes. And I proudly do not regret accepting it instantaneously. I have known Cody for a long time, and I know what he can do. Even my previous VP can attest to the respect I have mentioned for Cody. Despite popular opinion, I think I viewed him as the strongest competition so far, despite poll results, and member support. I was actually surprised that Cody didn"t get more support at first. I realize that many members were not directly familiar with him, however, and can understand the lack of immediate support. Because of my experience with Cody, his character, values, and intelligence, I don"t think much consideration was needed in joining together with him. In fact, I think it would be rather silly of me to refuse such an offer, as I have so much I can learn from a figure. Cody has the experience of a successful presidency, and I think combined with my drive for a positive change, we can make great things happen upon being elected.

So going forward, you can expect the same efforts and motivations behind my platform, and elections. Despite accusations to the contrary, this is entirely about service to me. If I didn"t think I could make a positive difference on the web site, I wouldn"t be running. There is no personal gain in this for me, outside of the satisfaction that I have helped served the community that I love. Because there are accusations of me having different motivations for trying to quickly get into office, I can say that if not elected, I will still put my utmost effort into bettering the website, as I have in the past.

I am a debater at heart, which is why I am here. As a debater, I seek to understand and this nature may have worked against me in my discussion with YYW. This entire ideal has been a learning experience, and despite any negative feelings towards me, I don"t plan on letting them impede my ability to lead. If elected, every member will be treated and valued the same by me regardless of the agreeability. This is one trait I have always admired within airmax, and will strive to uphold myself.

"

Any questions, comments, concerns? Feel free to ask away as usual.

"

and great response. At least it clarifies stuff
YYW
Posts: 36,375
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12/9/2013 12:44:23 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/9/2013 12:28:16 AM, TUF wrote:
Unfortunately this all happened at an inconvenient time for me.

How many other times will it be inconvenient for you to be accessible to the community?

As far as conflict resolution goes, I invite anyone to read my discussion with YYW in "the ideal president" thread, which is where I am led to believe CR may have been inspired to such a decision. While I don"t know if the entire conversation was read or not, I can understand that it doesn"t really matter. The perception of large amounts of quotation, many capitalizations from one party, and passionate words can give the appearance of a "flame war".

We didn't have a flame war, TUF. I expressed some concerns, and you became a combination of frustrated, indignant, confused and obstreperous. That I was asking you questions that you didn't know how to answer or that I capitalized words for emphasis does not mean that it was a flame war. The fact that you dismiss opposition views as "flame wars" -like so many other things- buttresses my already manifest doubts about your ability to lead.

The decision was hasty, yes. And I proudly do not regret accepting it instantaneously.

Even before you could publicly respond to your former VP renouncing his support of you because he doesn't think you're fit to lead?

There is no personal gain in this for me, outside of the satisfaction that I have helped served the community that I love.

We've talked about how much you like to be liked, and how that is going to be always already in conflict with your being an effective president. But, you don't understand that or refuse to even discuss the notion on a meaningful level -so I'll leave it at that.

I am a debater at heart, which is why I am here. As a debater, I seek to understand and this nature may have worked against me in my discussion with YYW.

A debater does not make personal attacks against the one he is debating, because a debater knows that personal attacks are not only logically fallacious, but they are exercises in bad character. I believe you when you say that you are running because you think you can make a positive difference. But, though our discussions you have showcased for us all that (1) you do not understand the nature of the office you seek, (2) you malign and dismiss opposition when you cannot effectively resolve it, (3) you do not understand what will be required of you when in office and (4) your personality is not conducive to the demands of the office.

But, rather than debate these, you've dismissed that entire discussion as a "flame war." And now, you're trying -without merit or cause- to seek the moral high ground when your foundations of sand are precipitously eroding from beneath you. Your Vice President left your side because he didn't think you were fit to serve, and now, you have the audacity to try to vindicate the reasons that he left you by saying that you're a debater? Disappointing, TUF. Disappointing, indeed.

This entire ideal has been a learning experience, and despite any negative feelings towards me, I don"t plan on letting them impede my ability to lead.

I don't think anyone has negative feelings toward you personally, TUF. I certainly don't. We just don't trust your leadership. We don't think you're fit to lead. That's the thick and thin of it.

If elected, every member will be treated and valued the same by me regardless of the agreeability.

In the same way that you dismiss hard questions as nothing more than a "flame war"? Is that how you'll treat Juggle when they confront you with a tough question about the community that is inconvenient for you? Is that how you'll treat the community when they ask you about a decision you made? We want to know, TUF. Your record of doing the exact opposite of what you described above was the very reason your VP abandoned you. That's pretty telling, if you ask me.
Tsar of DDO
TUF
Posts: 21,310
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12/9/2013 5:14:48 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
YYW, I would like to start out by saying that I respect your passion, fire, and ability to stand by your ideals. I don"t think you intended for this to have escalated to the point it has, and I know you believe your intentions are for the improvement of the community, just as mine. I see that you see a fundamental flaw in the way I present myself, such that you do not think I have the ability to lead. I can respect that. I have gotten over attempting to understand why, and do not think that is important. As a matter of respect, however, I would like to extend a personal request that such efforts to publicize against me are not directed at my supporters. This is a debating website, and I understand want to make a point, and have people support it. Unfortunately I feel that this has escalated far enough, where it is no longer in that realm. Decisions have been made, bereft of the context of such a discussion, and have transgressed into a physical reaction of perceived negativity.

I don"t think the presidential election should result in this much negativity, nor do I want it to. I am willing to move any discussion into a PM, or a debate if it is needed. I think it is important that we all remember what the elections are about. At the end of the day, there is no actual benefit to the candidates in this election, as we are all only volunteering our support to the community. With that said, the negative impact a person can have upon being elected is very limited. It is okay to think a candidate may be better suited for a position, but I think we should be careful on how we phrase things concerning accusing candidates volunteering as having a malicious intent.

I don"t expect to be loved by everyone, but I intend to treat everyone with an equal respect and honor them and their voice just as much as the next person. I am eagerly open to hearing any feedback regarding my ideals, or perceived leadership traits, and the reasons behind them. I know I am not perfect by any means, and I understand every presidency will have its hardships and those that will openly voice against ideals. Everything is a learning experience for me. YYW, I think you are an intelligent person, and I would appreciate any specific details or feedback towards my abilities. If such details cannot be given, I can understand as well.

From what I have seen and heard, I find my ideals to be very identical to yours, outside of only a few very small details. I wish things had turned out differently than they did, and we were able to communicate more efficiently. I am appreciative of the advice and effort you put into the thread you made about what an effective president should do, and actually want to work on those things as a personal goal. I will definitely seek your advice on such things mentioned, like ideas for new colors and designs, working on getting so much attention off of opinions, and back on to debate. Even if not elected, your advice on such things is entirely appreciated. I am also up for suggestions on modifying my current goals so that they encompass these things more.
"I've got to go and grab a shirt" ~ Airmax1227
YYW
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12/9/2013 8:53:12 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/9/2013 5:14:48 AM, TUF wrote:
YYW, I would like to start out by saying that I respect your passion, fire, and ability to stand by your ideals.

Ok.

I don"t think you intended for this to have escalated to the point it has, and I know you believe your intentions are for the improvement of the community, just as mine.

I haven't escalated anything, and any escalation that has occurred has been completely on your end and not mine. As I have said from the beginning, this isn't personal. It never was. There are many valuable assets you bring to this site -but your personality is not conducive to being president, as I have explained, repeatedly. Your former vice president and I are in agreement on that.

As I have also said before, I think that your intentions are good -but you do not know the reality of what your holding that office will mean. I know you well enough to know what it will mean, and I know what the office does well enough because of the role I've played in Airmax's administration. Given that vantage point, I can say with confidence that you are not a person I could reasonably see myself supporting as representing the DDO community to Juggle. On site development? Sure. But not president.

I see that you see a fundamental flaw in the way I present myself, such that you do not think I have the ability to lead.

I did not say that you did not have the ability to lead. I said that given the constraints and demands of the office you seek, you are not fit to lead.

I can respect that. I have gotten over attempting to understand why, and do not think that is important.

So, one more, we're not making any progress here in that you still cannot see what I and your former vice president already know -and, as I have mentioned afore- I think many others who are just too polite to say so.

As a matter of respect, however, I would like to extend a personal request that such efforts to publicize against me are not directed at my supporters.

What are you talking about?

This is a debating website, and I understand want to make a point, and have people support it. Unfortunately I feel that this has escalated far enough, where it is no longer in that realm. Decisions have been made, bereft of the context of such a discussion, and have transgressed into a physical reaction of perceived negativity.

You are "feeling" which is the problem. You're not thinking. You're emotionally reacting rather than logically responding. This hasn't escalated at all, TUF. This isn't personal. It's not about a "physical reaction" (how could it be, this is an internet site...) and there is no perceived "negativity." The reality is that there are only legitimate concerns about the extent to which you are fit to be president because of who you are and how you conduct yourself. Those are concerns which were sufficient to cause your former vice president to withdraw his name as your running mate. Those are concerns that will keep me from voting for you, and at the point, there is nothing that you can do about that. You are who you are, TUF. You might have posted a comparably less caustic thread than you have previously, but that doesn't change anything or ameliorate any concern that I have about your being president.

I don"t think the presidential election should result in this much negativity, nor do I want it to.

The "negativity" of which you speak is about genuine concern with your potential to be elected. Your attempting to reframe what I'm saying as not genuine trepidation about your leadership into something of a fight against "negativity" is cheap and shallow when the "negativity" is opposition sentiment. I'm sure this isn't comfortable for you, but it's necessary. It's something you subjected yourself to by making yourself a candidate. It's something that you will not be able to avoid as president -but it will be from Juggle and the whole of the community rather than just me. What then? Will you plead with everyone not to hate on you so much because you will think that their disagreement with your decisions is somehow no more than "negativity" that needs to be silenced? Presidents don't act that way, TUF. But, even when you're trying to be diplomatic, you do. Again, this is not good.

I am willing to move any discussion into a PM, or a debate if it is needed.

The people have a right to know, given that you seek to lead them. So, we can talk via PM -but that doesn't mean that I'm going to stop what I'm doing here. I will not support you running. I will not support you running even if Cody aspires to be your "stabilizing force." I don't trust your judgement. I don't trust his insofar as it relates to interaction with Juggle. I trusted Airmax, but you are not him.
Tsar of DDO
TUF
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12/9/2013 8:59:59 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
Thankyou for the feedback YYW. I genuinely appreciate it and will take it seriously.
"I've got to go and grab a shirt" ~ Airmax1227
YYW
Posts: 36,375
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12/9/2013 9:20:30 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/9/2013 8:59:59 AM, TUF wrote:
Thankyou for the feedback YYW. I genuinely appreciate it and will take it seriously.

So, here you thank me and tell me you'll take this seriously... but when Cermank tries to understand my position you say, and I quote:

Don't bother. He is set in his ways.

http://www.debate.org...
Post 75

Not good, TUF. Not good.
Tsar of DDO
TUF
Posts: 21,310
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12/9/2013 9:28:20 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/9/2013 9:20:30 AM, YYW wrote:
At 12/9/2013 8:59:59 AM, TUF wrote:
Thankyou for the feedback YYW. I genuinely appreciate it and will take it seriously.

So, here you thank me and tell me you'll take this seriously... but when Cermank tries to understand my position you say, and I quote:

Don't bother. He is set in his ways.

http://www.debate.org...
Post 75

Not good, TUF. Not good.

You can't tell someone something if they refuse to listen. I will deal with you with respect, but outside of that, you know where my thoughts on this whole ordeal lie. I am not going to argue with you anymore thats all. Good luck mate.
"I've got to go and grab a shirt" ~ Airmax1227
TheHitchslap
Posts: 1,231
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12/9/2013 1:44:00 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/9/2013 12:28:16 AM, TUF wrote:
Hello debate.org! There has been many twists and turns in this election, and I get the feeling the community is largely dis-oriented with all of it. I can definitely understand this. This is definitely one of the craziest elections I have ever seen. I just want to let you know, the amidst all of the craziness, I choose to push through the challenges. I think this has been a big learning experience so far, and I can only now get a glimpse of what I feel airmax has had to deal with throughout his election. I came into the election fully prepared for the emotional and mental stress I might have to endure. Principally, I don"t believe in losing motivation, or quitting at a decent challenge. If anything my drive to continue has only strengthened.

Unfortunately this all happened at an inconvenient time for me. Since some of you have been speculating the order of events, let me be clear exactly what has been going on. I have been at drill the past couple of days, and only finally returned home. I got a 2 hour nap, and am now straight back to work. In a time period of 10 minutes I could spare in getting ready for work, I have had to take in 1. My VP"s retraction without any communication or notification whatsoever, 2. New competition in the election with the support of my own previous VP, and 3. An interesting offer from Cody to be my VP.

I would be lying if I said that this wasn"t a lot to take in. But I refuse to let any of this change who I am, and to look at the whole thing as a learning experience. As far as conflict resolution goes, I invite anyone to read my discussion with YYW in "the ideal president" thread, which is where I am led to believe CR may have been inspired to such a decision. While I don"t know if the entire conversation was read or not, I can understand that it doesn"t really matter. The perception of large amounts of quotation, many capitalizations from one party, and passionate words can give the appearance of a "flame war". While the entire discussion for me was simply to grasp an understanding, I should have realized much earlier that such could not come of the conversation. And because perception is everything, I can understand where one might have been led to think that conflict resolution is an issue.

Because there are speculations currently arising of malicious intent in my choosing of a VP, let me attempt to put them at rest. My campaign is still the same. I still believe in accomplishing everything I set out to do, and am not deterred by a little challenge. I appreciate it if anything, and hope to learn and grow from all of this. Cody is someone in whom I have a deep respect for. Had I not been running myself, I think I may have been on board with his presidency with a lot more understanding than he initially received from the user base. With Cody"s offer, I accepted immediately upon being asked. The decision was hasty, yes. And I proudly do not regret accepting it instantaneously. I have known Cody for a long time, and I know what he can do. Even my previous VP can attest to the respect I have mentioned for Cody. Despite popular opinion, I think I viewed him as the strongest competition so far, despite poll results, and member support. I was actually surprised that Cody didn"t get more support at first. I realize that many members were not directly familiar with him, however, and can understand the lack of immediate support. Because of my experience with Cody, his character, values, and intelligence, I don"t think much consideration was needed in joining together with him. In fact, I think it would be rather silly of me to refuse such an offer, as I have so much I can learn from a figure. Cody has the experience of a successful presidency, and I think combined with my drive for a positive change, we can make great things happen upon being elected.

So going forward, you can expect the same efforts and motivations behind my platform, and elections. Despite accusations to the contrary, this is entirely about service to me. If I didn"t think I could make a positive difference on the web site, I wouldn"t be running. There is no personal gain in this for me, outside of the satisfaction that I have helped served the community that I love. Because there are accusations of me having different motivations for trying to quickly get into office, I can say that if not elected, I will still put my utmost effort into bettering the website, as I have in the past.

I am a debater at heart, which is why I am here. As a debater, I seek to understand and this nature may have worked against me in my discussion with YYW. This entire ideal has been a learning experience, and despite any negative feelings towards me, I don"t plan on letting them impede my ability to lead. If elected, every member will be treated and valued the same by me regardless of the agreeability. This is one trait I have always admired within airmax, and will strive to uphold myself.

"

Any questions, comments, concerns? Feel free to ask away as usual.

"

It is to my understanding that you and Bobbert were incredibly close as friends. As such, one would think that it would take an immense factor to separate you two from no longer running together. This doesn't provide us with a heck of a lot of details, only that Bobbert was mis-informed, yet ironically enough the person you denounced as mistaking your passion is probably the one who knows you the best on this site.

As such, as a voter: is something else going on behind the scenes? Or was that it? And how can we possibly trust your leadership when that very person who supported you backed out and supports your opponents?
Thank you for voting!
TUF
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12/9/2013 6:13:14 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/9/2013 1:44:00 PM, TheHitchslap wrote:
It is to my understanding that you and Bobbert were incredibly close as friends. As such, one would think that it would take an immense factor to separate you two from no longer running together. This doesn't provide us with a heck of a lot of details, only that Bobbert was mis-informed, yet ironically enough the person you denounced as mistaking your passion is probably the one who knows you the best on this site.
As such, as a voter: is something else going on behind the scenes? Or was that it?

I am to believe it was exactly as ClassicRobert said it was, and nothing more. If you are to doubt him, I ask that you contact him for further details. In our presidency message, he had told me before that he wanted me to talk differently to people. He imagined me referring to people and handling to them in much more of a professional way. I can udnerstand this, because I had been talking to YYW just I had as a normal user. I realize that as a president, personalization must be taken out of my interactions with people and addressed differently. I have asked for advice from others in this category, and hope to improve.

And how can we possibly trust your leadership when that very person who supported you backed out and supports your opponents?

CR is a great guy, but honestly if he was willing to contradict the ideals we were going for that he said he supported, only to support those that in the past he said he didn't, we weren't of the same mindset. This was ultimately for the better, and I think Cody is much more suited for the position. Also from my interactions with CR, he was emphasizing parts of my platform which weren't as important. I don't think he was ever fully on board with my ideals. I have messaged CR, let him know that there are know hard feelings, and we both agree that our ideas of presidency are different.
"I've got to go and grab a shirt" ~ Airmax1227