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Why TUF/ Cody deserve the presidential ticket

Cermank
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12/11/2013 12:48:20 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
So this is no endorsement (I'm no one to endorse anyone), just putting out reason why TUF/ Cody deserve the presidential ticket, to balance out all the anti-TUF wave that's been going around.

There are a number of things that have been bothering me throughout the election- the most troubling of which was that there seems to be a distinct division of being pro-TUF and anti-TUF, rather than being pro-TUF and pro-bsh1. Let's go over the credentials. TUF has been working towards betterment of the site EVEN BEFORE he was expected to work, just out of sheer willingness to. He started the voting incentive tournaments, SPENT ACTUAL MONEY to buy gifts that'd add as an incentive to voters- and we are not talking 2-3$, we're talking enough money to buy X-box and PS4. That is dedication, if nothing else. He has the technical knowledge to add team debates/ work appreciation stickers/ everything. And even though it DOES depend on Juggle whether or not to implement these- having a president with working codes for new features, and the will to, is the best bet we have in implementing new features.

But that's not all- we have Cody, who has already reserved as a president once, and thus HAS the experience when it comes to being a president. He's universally respected, has a flair for words and diplomacy, has been a staunch supporter of talking with words rather than banning, and has been here forever, and thus knows the site well.

This is the strongest it gets. We have dedication, experience, technical expertise, and diplomatic poweress.

Perhaps if bsh1 tried again next year, he would have a comparable skill set, but right now, comparing the two tickets, I don't see how we can even compare both of them.
YYW
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12/11/2013 1:17:10 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/11/2013 12:48:20 AM, Cermank wrote:
So this is no endorsement (I'm no one to endorse anyone), just putting out reason why TUF/ Cody deserve the presidential ticket, to balance out all the anti-TUF wave that's been going around.

There are a number of things that have been bothering me throughout the election- the most troubling of which was that there seems to be a distinct division of being pro-TUF and anti-TUF, rather than being pro-TUF and pro-bsh1. Let's go over the credentials. TUF has been working towards betterment of the site EVEN BEFORE he was expected to work, just out of sheer willingness to. He started the voting incentive tournaments, SPENT ACTUAL MONEY to buy gifts that'd add as an incentive to voters- and we are not talking 2-3$, we're talking enough money to buy X-box and PS4. That is dedication, if nothing else. He has the technical knowledge to add team debates/ work appreciation stickers/ everything. And even though it DOES depend on Juggle whether or not to implement these- having a president with working codes for new features, and the will to, is the best bet we have in implementing new features.

But that's not all- we have Cody, who has already reserved as a president once, and thus HAS the experience when it comes to being a president. He's universally respected, has a flair for words and diplomacy, has been a staunch supporter of talking with words rather than banning, and has been here forever, and thus knows the site well.

This is the strongest it gets. We have dedication, experience, technical expertise, and diplomatic poweress.

Perhaps if bsh1 tried again next year, he would have a comparable skill set, but right now, comparing the two tickets, I don't see how we can even compare both of them.

TUF has demonstrated that he's good at site development. Being good at site development is not sufficient to indicate that one will also, if good at site development, also be a good president. There has been a lot of talk about how much TUF has personally sacrificed for the DDO community. On the surface, that seems like a good thing -but in reality it tells me that he wants to be liked more than he wants to lead.

Moreover, site development ability isn't really even relevant to whether or not a person will be a good president. Airmax had almost no site development experience when elected -at least not that I'm aware of. But, he learned quickly. So, whether a candidate has experience in site development or not, that doesn't mean that they will be a better or worse candidate -i.e. prior site development experience is almost irrelevant to whether or not a person will be a good president.

TUF has, however, demonstrated that he's really good at site development -and that is where his skill-set is best used. Especially given that he has already said that he will continue to work on site development whether he is president or not, it seems like it is wholly irrelevant whether he is elected president if we want him to continue developing.

Cermank, your argument that TUF deserves this -which is the same argument that Heineken has been making- fails to persuade me because (1) this is not about individual merit, it's about personality and ability to function as an intermediary between Juggle and the DDO community, (2) this is not about who is more committed, because both are committed and both believe that they are doing this for the right reasons, and (3) this is most critically and only a question of who is best able to represent DDO to Juggle.

The kind of person who will represent DDO to juggle will be levelheaded especially under pressure from competing interests and tension from contrasting objectives from multiple parties, they will be mature even when things don't go their way, they will understand the DDO community and not alienate other members even when they disagree with their perspective and they will not dismiss opposition as "negativity" that needs to be dismissed because it is "negativity." They will instead listen, learn and proceed prudently. Bsh1 and Thett represent all of those things. TUF represents none of those things. My endorsing Bsh1 and Thett is just as much for them because they represent the best possible option for DDO's future as much as it is a vote against TUF because he is everything we do not need in a president. I've tired to not be that blunt about that in the past, but this is where we are at this point.
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rross
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12/11/2013 1:42:06 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/11/2013 1:17:10 AM, YYW wrote:
The kind of person who will represent DDO to juggle will be levelheaded especially under pressure from competing interests and tension from contrasting objectives from multiple parties, they will be mature even when things don't go their way, they will understand the DDO community and not alienate other members even when they disagree with their perspective and they will not dismiss opposition as "negativity" that needs to be dismissed because it is "negativity." They will instead listen, learn and proceed prudently. Bsh1 and Thett represent all of those things..

YYW, could you please link an example of when bsh1 has been under pressure and when things haven't gone his way? I'd barely heard of him before the election so it would be good to see an example of him handling conflict.
Cermank
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12/11/2013 2:12:10 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/11/2013 1:17:10 AM, YYW wrote:


TUF has demonstrated that he's good at site development. Being good at site development is not sufficient to indicate that one will also, if good at site development, also be a good president. There has been a lot of talk about how much TUF has personally sacrificed for the DDO community. On the surface, that seems like a good thing -but in reality it tells me that he wants to be liked more than he wants to lead.

Why do you think someone dedicating his time to the site is doing that solely to be liked? This argument really doesn't have any ground- working for the community implies he won't be a leader? Why do you have such a draconion idea of a leader?

Moreover, site development ability isn't really even relevant to whether or not a person will be a good president. Airmax had almost no site development experience when elected -at least not that I'm aware of. But, he learned quickly. So, whether a candidate has experience in site development or not, that doesn't mean that they will be a better or worse candidate -i.e. prior site development experience is almost irrelevant to whether or not a person will be a good president.

Of course, never said it was. It is an added benefit, he's providing all bsh1/ thett can offer, and more. You don't even have to learn site development experience, being a president is a service position.

TUF has, however, demonstrated that he's really good at site development -and that is where his skill-set is best used. Especially given that he has already said that he will continue to work on site development whether he is president or not, it seems like it is wholly irrelevant whether he is elected president if we want him to continue developing.

I don't where you are getting this from, tbh. But you're essentially saying that EVEN if we don't reward TUF for all he's been doing for the site, he has enough integrity to continue doing the same things. Thus, since we are already getting the benefits of his skill set, we should give the actual position (one of whose requirement is having the very integrity and dedication you're implicitely crediting TUF with) to someone who has been here for 3 months. That's not logical.


Cermank, your argument that TUF deserves this -which is the same argument that Heineken has been making- fails to persuade me because (1) this is not about individual merit, it's about personality and ability to function as an intermediary between Juggle and the DDO community, (2) this is not about who is more committed, because both are committed and both believe that they are doing this for the right reasons, and (3) this is most critically and only a question of who is best able to represent DDO to Juggle.

The kind of person who will represent DDO to juggle will be levelheaded especially under pressure from competing interests and tension from contrasting objectives from multiple parties, they will be mature even when things don't go their way, they will understand the DDO community and not alienate other members even when they disagree with their perspective and they will not dismiss opposition as "negativity" that needs to be dismissed because it is "negativity." They will instead listen, learn and proceed prudently. Bsh1 and Thett represent all of those things. TUF represents none of those things. My endorsing Bsh1 and Thett is just as much for them because they represent the best possible option for DDO's future as much as it is a vote against TUF because he is everything we do not need in a president. I've tired to not be that blunt about that in the past, but this is where we are at this point.

And this complete speculation. Bsh1 has never been in a position for you to have such great faith in him. Cody has already been a president, he knows what it is. TUF has been handling your opinions pretty calmly, without being hostile- asking you to explain the reason for your beliefs n number of times. Thett is pretty diplomatic, sure, but then again he has never been the president- unlike Cody. I do believe theft would be a great VP, but given the options, I think Cody would be much better than him. You are proclaiming faith in bsh1, but I see no basis for your belief. There is literally hope ther, hope that he would be a good president- like you were hoping with bench. As long as its not TUF, you're okay with anyone.
YYW
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12/11/2013 2:32:39 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/11/2013 2:12:10 AM, Cermank wrote:
At 12/11/2013 1:17:10 AM, YYW wrote:


TUF has demonstrated that he's good at site development. Being good at site development is not sufficient to indicate that one will also, if good at site development, also be a good president. There has been a lot of talk about how much TUF has personally sacrificed for the DDO community. On the surface, that seems like a good thing -but in reality it tells me that he wants to be liked more than he wants to lead.

Why do you think someone dedicating his time to the site is doing that solely to be liked?

For the x^[n]th time, I did not say that TUF does this only to be liked. I have never doubted his commitment to the community, either. I believe that TUf is a well intending guy who believes that he can do a good job as present, and therefore is running because he wants to serve the community. I also believe, to the same extent, that his desire to be in others' good favor presents a problem. The reason it presents a problem is this: he will constantly be caught between adversarial parties. Sometimes that tension is more intense than others -but when the cards don't fall as TUF sees fit, he has on repeated occasions lashed out, and so in unproductive ways. That he means well does not vindicate his failures to exercise good judgement under pressure.

This argument really doesn't have any ground- working for the community implies he won't be a leader? Why do you have such a draconion idea of a leader?

Working for the community indicates that he's a good worker, and that he is committed to community development -not that he is an adequate candidate for president. These distinctions matter. And I have no idea what you mean by "draconian" when used in this context. Aside from spelling it wrong, it's spelled "draconian" not "draconion" -draconian means excessively harsh or severe. Nothing about what I have said is excessively harsh or severe.


Moreover, site development ability isn't really even relevant to whether or not a person will be a good president. Airmax had almost no site development experience when elected -at least not that I'm aware of. But, he learned quickly. So, whether a candidate has experience in site development or not, that doesn't mean that they will be a better or worse candidate -i.e. prior site development experience is almost irrelevant to whether or not a person will be a good president.

Of course, never said it was. It is an added benefit, he's providing all bsh1/ thett can offer, and more.

No, he's not. Thett is calm under pressure, and doesn't react with bombast and vitriol when things don't go his way. He doesn't personally internalize disagreement as an assault on his character. Neither does bsh1. TUF does both of those things.

You don't even have to learn site development experience, being a president is a service position.

Being president means this: If you are the president, then your role is to function as a liaison between DDO and Juggle. This means that whenever Juggle comes up with something they want, you weigh that against the interests of the DDO community and whenever the community comes up with something they want, the president makes the best case s/he can to Juggle to make it happen. That's the beginning and end of what it means to be a president -as the role is defined. So, it's a service position only insofar as one is representing the interests of the DDO community to Juggle. No more. Knowing how to code has noting to do with being president. Giving away free implements of technology at one's personal expense has nothing to do with being president.

TUF has, however, demonstrated that he's really good at site development -and that is where his skill-set is best used. Especially given that he has already said that he will continue to work on site development whether he is president or not, it seems like it is wholly irrelevant whether he is elected president if we want him to continue developing.

I don't where you are getting this from, tbh.

I know you don't, which is why I'm willing to explain this even though I feel like I'm running in circles. The reason you don't see this the way I do is because you haven't worked side by side with Airmax as his Chief of Staff, and you don't understand what the actual demands of a president are. This is unfortunate, but I'm doing the only thing I can here: hope that people will understand what it means to be president, and select the best person for the job. Not pick a guy who means well but whose personality will harm the DDO community because he could not be an effective liaison between DDO and Juggle.
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YYW
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12/11/2013 2:33:03 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/11/2013 1:42:06 AM, rross wrote:
At 12/11/2013 1:17:10 AM, YYW wrote:
The kind of person who will represent DDO to juggle will be levelheaded especially under pressure from competing interests and tension from contrasting objectives from multiple parties, they will be mature even when things don't go their way, they will understand the DDO community and not alienate other members even when they disagree with their perspective and they will not dismiss opposition as "negativity" that needs to be dismissed because it is "negativity." They will instead listen, learn and proceed prudently. Bsh1 and Thett represent all of those things..

YYW, could you please link an example of when bsh1 has been under pressure and when things haven't gone his way? I'd barely heard of him before the election so it would be good to see an example of him handling conflict.

Why don't you ask him... rather than me. I am not his mouthpiece.
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YYW
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12/11/2013 2:37:28 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/11/2013 2:12:10 AM, Cermank wrote:
And this complete speculation. Bsh1 has never been in a position for you to have such great faith in him. Cody has already been a president, he knows what it is.

I like Cody, but he wasn't a president as we currently understand the role. Innomen was the first real president we had, and then Airmax followed in kind.

TUF has been handling your opinions pretty calmly, without being hostile- asking you to explain the reason for your beliefs n number of times.

You didn't read those threads, did you...

Thett is pretty diplomatic, sure, but then again he has never been the president- unlike Cody.

Thett, unlike TUF, has been a member of Airmax's IC and has seen things from the inside. Cody was also never a member of the IC. Thett has more actual experience dealing with presidential related responsibilities as we understand them than TUF and Cody combined. It surprises me that more people don't understand this.
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TheHitchslap
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12/11/2013 3:04:17 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/11/2013 12:48:20 AM, Cermank wrote:
So this is no endorsement (I'm no one to endorse anyone), just putting out reason why TUF/ Cody deserve the presidential ticket, to balance out all the anti-TUF wave that's been going around.

There are a number of things that have been bothering me throughout the election- the most troubling of which was that there seems to be a distinct division of being pro-TUF and anti-TUF, rather than being pro-TUF and pro-bsh1. Let's go over the credentials. TUF has been working towards betterment of the site EVEN BEFORE he was expected to work, just out of sheer willingness to. He started the voting incentive tournaments, SPENT ACTUAL MONEY to buy gifts that'd add as an incentive to voters- and we are not talking 2-3$, we're talking enough money to buy X-box and PS4. That is dedication, if nothing else. He has the technical knowledge to add team debates/ work appreciation stickers/ everything. And even though it DOES depend on Juggle whether or not to implement these- having a president with working codes for new features, and the will to, is the best bet we have in implementing new features.

But that's not all- we have Cody, who has already reserved as a president once, and thus HAS the experience when it comes to being a president. He's universally respected, has a flair for words and diplomacy, has been a staunch supporter of talking with words rather than banning, and has been here forever, and thus knows the site well.

This is the strongest it gets. We have dedication, experience, technical expertise, and diplomatic poweress.

Perhaps if bsh1 tried again next year, he would have a comparable skill set, but right now, comparing the two tickets, I don't see how we can even compare both of them.

Answer me this one question:

TUF works in the Reserves. Say Syria gets really out of control, and the Reserves call him to action: what then? We go without a president and the VP takes the job?

Unfit to lead dude.
Thank you for voting!
TUF
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12/11/2013 4:47:09 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/11/2013 3:04:17 AM, TheHitchslap wrote:
TUF works in the Reserves. Say Syria gets really out of control, and the Reserves call him to action: what then? We go without a president and the VP takes the job?

Unfit to lead dude.

I have been informed that my unit will be deployed in 2016 to north korea, and no sooner. No problem whatsoever unless I was reelected that many times.
"I've got to go and grab a shirt" ~ Airmax1227
TUF
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12/11/2013 4:48:50 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
For any readers keeping track of the conversation, I would like to redirect you to the "role of the president" where I have responded to everything. It was supposed to have been posted here, but oh well.
"I've got to go and grab a shirt" ~ Airmax1227
rross
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12/11/2013 5:11:04 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/11/2013 2:33:03 AM, YYW wrote:
At 12/11/2013 1:42:06 AM, rross wrote:
At 12/11/2013 1:17:10 AM, YYW wrote:
The kind of person who will represent DDO to juggle will be levelheaded especially under pressure from competing interests and tension from contrasting objectives from multiple parties, they will be mature even when things don't go their way, they will understand the DDO community and not alienate other members even when they disagree with their perspective and they will not dismiss opposition as "negativity" that needs to be dismissed because it is "negativity." They will instead listen, learn and proceed prudently. Bsh1 and Thett represent all of those things..

YYW, could you please link an example of when bsh1 has been under pressure and when things haven't gone his way? I'd barely heard of him before the election so it would be good to see an example of him handling conflict.

Why don't you ask him... rather than me. I am not his mouthpiece.

Eh? But he's not the one making these claims - you are.

You just said that bsh1 represents level-headedness under competing pressures and maturity when things don't go his way. ^

You must have a reason for saying those things. You must have seen him handle conflict, pressure and negativity in a good way, right? Thett3 too, for that matter. So I was just hoping that you could put a link so I could see it for myself. That would be really useful for getting a sense of their style of conflict resolution.
TUF
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12/11/2013 5:22:46 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
Cermank, while realizing you have not made an endorsement, I would like to express my appreciation at your willingness to be open minded on the issue.
"I've got to go and grab a shirt" ~ Airmax1227
Heineken
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12/11/2013 6:10:53 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/11/2013 3:04:17 AM, TheHitchslap wrote:
At 12/11/2013 12:48:20 AM, Cermank wrote:
So this is no endorsement (I'm no one to endorse anyone), just putting out reason why TUF/ Cody deserve the presidential ticket, to balance out all the anti-TUF wave that's been going around.

There are a number of things that have been bothering me throughout the election- the most troubling of which was that there seems to be a distinct division of being pro-TUF and anti-TUF, rather than being pro-TUF and pro-bsh1. Let's go over the credentials. TUF has been working towards betterment of the site EVEN BEFORE he was expected to work, just out of sheer willingness to. He started the voting incentive tournaments, SPENT ACTUAL MONEY to buy gifts that'd add as an incentive to voters- and we are not talking 2-3$, we're talking enough money to buy X-box and PS4. That is dedication, if nothing else. He has the technical knowledge to add team debates/ work appreciation stickers/ everything. And even though it DOES depend on Juggle whether or not to implement these- having a president with working codes for new features, and the will to, is the best bet we have in implementing new features.

But that's not all- we have Cody, who has already reserved as a president once, and thus HAS the experience when it comes to being a president. He's universally respected, has a flair for words and diplomacy, has been a staunch supporter of talking with words rather than banning, and has been here forever, and thus knows the site well.

This is the strongest it gets. We have dedication, experience, technical expertise, and diplomatic poweress.

Perhaps if bsh1 tried again next year, he would have a comparable skill set, but right now, comparing the two tickets, I don't see how we can even compare both of them.


Answer me this one question:

TUF works in the Reserves. Say Syria gets really out of control, and the Reserves call him to action: what then? We go without a president and the VP takes the job?

Unfit to lead dude.

Wow....really?
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Heineken
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12/11/2013 6:13:29 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/11/2013 4:47:09 AM, TUF wrote:
At 12/11/2013 3:04:17 AM, TheHitchslap wrote:
TUF works in the Reserves. Say Syria gets really out of control, and the Reserves call him to action: what then? We go without a president and the VP takes the job?

Unfit to lead dude.

I have been informed that my unit will be deployed in 2016 to north korea, and no sooner. No problem whatsoever unless I was reelected that many times.

That's a TDY deployment. I've been to Korea. High-speed internet and brand new barracks.
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TUF
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12/11/2013 6:21:45 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/11/2013 6:13:29 AM, Heineken wrote:
At 12/11/2013 4:47:09 AM, TUF wrote:
At 12/11/2013 3:04:17 AM, TheHitchslap wrote:
TUF works in the Reserves. Say Syria gets really out of control, and the Reserves call him to action: what then? We go without a president and the VP takes the job?

Unfit to lead dude.

I have been informed that my unit will be deployed in 2016 to north korea, and no sooner. No problem whatsoever unless I was reelected that many times.

That's a TDY deployment. I've been to Korea. High-speed internet and brand new barracks.

That's great!
"I've got to go and grab a shirt" ~ Airmax1227
ClassicRobert
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12/11/2013 6:31:21 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/11/2013 1:42:06 AM, rross wrote:
At 12/11/2013 1:17:10 AM, YYW wrote:
The kind of person who will represent DDO to juggle will be levelheaded especially under pressure from competing interests and tension from contrasting objectives from multiple parties, they will be mature even when things don't go their way, they will understand the DDO community and not alienate other members even when they disagree with their perspective and they will not dismiss opposition as "negativity" that needs to be dismissed because it is "negativity." They will instead listen, learn and proceed prudently. Bsh1 and Thett represent all of those things..

YYW, could you please link an example of when bsh1 has been under pressure and when things haven't gone his way? I'd barely heard of him before the election so it would be good to see an example of him handling conflict.

If I may-

Notice the way he responds to criticisms and confrontational posts in a calm manner- that is the way a leader speaks. This example is just the most recent example I could think of.

http://www.debate.org...

I'll point to his responses to imabench in general, beginning with post 67. Imabench took serious issue with Bsh1 increasing the number of people inducted into the Hall of Fame, as that is ima's thing, and while Bsh1 ended up dropping it, nothing that Bsh1 said could be perceived as escalating the conflict. His responses also seemed to calm imabench down.

Then, when BlackVoid and Raisor raised valid critiques of a specific aspect of Bsh1's platform, he responded in a calm manner that prevented it from turning into a conflict, which is fundamentally different than the way that TUF went about criticisms (not in that thread, but in other threads)

However, a huge part of what made me specifically understand his conflict resolution abilities is hard for me to link to because it wasn't on DDO. For a few weeks, he ran a political twitter account with me. When you tweet from an account like that, you get responses from literally some of the most idiotic, most confrontational people you can imagine (I mean, hey, it's Twitter). However, he never caved, he never insulted back, he never escalated the conflict, and in most cases, he was able to make these people, who almost seemed like they were there for the sole purpose of confrontation, stop insulting him. It was really interesting to watch that happen.
Debate me: Economic decision theory should be adjusted to include higher-order preferences for non-normative purposes http://www.debate.org...

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TUF
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12/11/2013 6:42:18 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
ClassicRobert, again for the sake of those following the conversation only, could you answer a few questions for me? Also your initiative in assisting another member in a professional tone is very respectable. My questions are as follows:

1. Could you give a personal definition of the word "calm" as you see it?

2. Would you mind finding a few examples during this election where you specifically found that I didn't match that definition?

3. And finally, would you mind stating exactly what you feel the role of a president is, and demonstrating how you feel my behavior contradicted that role?

There is no obligation to answer of course and your feedback is appreciated!
"I've got to go and grab a shirt" ~ Airmax1227
ClassicRobert
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12/11/2013 6:59:49 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/11/2013 6:42:18 AM, TUF wrote:
ClassicRobert, again for the sake of those following the conversation only, could you answer a few questions for me? Also your initiative in assisting another member in a professional tone is very respectable. My questions are as follows:

1. Could you give a personal definition of the word "calm" as you see it?

Well, in regards to posting, I would say that calm is represented through a rational tone. If there is a confrontational tone, or if the user posting it is showing that the user is taking something personally, than it is clear that the user is not posting with a calm mind.

2. Would you mind finding a few examples during this election where you specifically found that I didn't match that definition?

For this question, I'll just point you to post 86 of this thread. I gave a two examples there. http://www.debate.org...

3. And finally, would you mind stating exactly what you feel the role of a president is, and demonstrating how you feel my behavior contradicted that role?

The role of the president is to be a leader within the community and to be a liaison between the DDO community and Juggle. With leadership, however, comes a certain level of responsibility to the community, which includes A.) being able to take criticisms in a non-personal manner, B.) being able to resolve conflicts, and C.) if not resolve, the leader should at least be able to be involved in conflicts without being responsible for the escalation of said conflicts. As YYW has pointed out, the presidency is a high tension job between two parties that often have conflicting interests (the DDO community and Juggle), and your conduct in the forums has not given me confidence that you are capable of handling that without the conversation devolving into higher tensions.

There is no obligation to answer of course and your feedback is appreciated!
Debate me: Economic decision theory should be adjusted to include higher-order preferences for non-normative purposes http://www.debate.org...

Do you really believe that? Or not? If you believe it, you should man up and defend it in a debate. -RoyLatham

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ClassicRobert
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12/11/2013 7:02:48 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/11/2013 6:59:49 AM, ClassicRobert wrote:
At 12/11/2013 6:42:18 AM, TUF wrote:
ClassicRobert, again for the sake of those following the conversation only, could you answer a few questions for me? Also your initiative in assisting another member in a professional tone is very respectable. My questions are as follows:

1. Could you give a personal definition of the word "calm" as you see it?

Well, in regards to posting, I would say that calm is represented through a rational tone. If there is a confrontational tone, or if the user posting it is showing that the user is taking something personally, than it is clear that the user is not posting with a calm mind.

2. Would you mind finding a few examples during this election where you specifically found that I didn't match that definition?

For this question, I'll just point you to post 86 of this thread. I gave a two examples there. http://www.debate.org...

3. And finally, would you mind stating exactly what you feel the role of a president is, and demonstrating how you feel my behavior contradicted that role?

The role of the president is to be a leader within the community and to be a liaison between the DDO community and Juggle. With leadership, however, comes a certain level of responsibility to the community, which includes A.) being able to take criticisms in a non-personal manner, B.) being able to resolve conflicts, and C.) if not resolve, the leader should at least be able to be involved in conflicts without being responsible for the escalation of said conflicts. As YYW has pointed out, the presidency is a high tension job between two parties that often have conflicting interests (the DDO community and Juggle), and your conduct in the forums has not given me confidence that you are capable of handling that without the conversation devolving into higher tensions.

There is no obligation to answer of course and your feedback is appreciated!

Also, it should be added (because I would like to see you improve at this), that asking questions as a rebuttal is generally not a good way to keep tensions from escalating. I don't generally respond negatively to them, but they have a way of pushing people into a mental corner, which brings out the fight or flight response in many.
Debate me: Economic decision theory should be adjusted to include higher-order preferences for non-normative purposes http://www.debate.org...

Do you really believe that? Or not? If you believe it, you should man up and defend it in a debate. -RoyLatham

My Pet Fish is such a Douche- NiamC

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rross
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12/11/2013 7:39:17 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/11/2013 6:31:21 AM, ClassicRobert wrote:
At 12/11/2013 1:42:06 AM, rross wrote:
At 12/11/2013 1:17:10 AM, YYW wrote:
The kind of person who will represent DDO to juggle will be levelheaded especially under pressure from competing interests and tension from contrasting objectives from multiple parties, they will be mature even when things don't go their way, they will understand the DDO community and not alienate other members even when they disagree with their perspective and they will not dismiss opposition as "negativity" that needs to be dismissed because it is "negativity." They will instead listen, learn and proceed prudently. Bsh1 and Thett represent all of those things..

YYW, could you please link an example of when bsh1 has been under pressure and when things haven't gone his way? I'd barely heard of him before the election so it would be good to see an example of him handling conflict.

If I may-

Notice the way he responds to criticisms and confrontational posts in a calm manner- that is the way a leader speaks. This example is just the most recent example I could think of.

http://www.debate.org...

I'll point to his responses to imabench in general, beginning with post 67. Imabench took serious issue with Bsh1 increasing the number of people inducted into the Hall of Fame, as that is ima's thing, and while Bsh1 ended up dropping it, nothing that Bsh1 said could be perceived as escalating the conflict. His responses also seemed to calm imabench down.

Then, when BlackVoid and Raisor raised valid critiques of a specific aspect of Bsh1's platform, he responded in a calm manner that prevented it from turning into a conflict, which is fundamentally different than the way that TUF went about criticisms (not in that thread, but in other threads)

However, a huge part of what made me specifically understand his conflict resolution abilities is hard for me to link to because it wasn't on DDO. For a few weeks, he ran a political twitter account with me. When you tweet from an account like that, you get responses from literally some of the most idiotic, most confrontational people you can imagine (I mean, hey, it's Twitter). However, he never caved, he never insulted back, he never escalated the conflict, and in most cases, he was able to make these people, who almost seemed like they were there for the sole purpose of confrontation, stop insulting him. It was really interesting to watch that happen.

OK thanks. That's interesting.

It must be just style preference, because I have to say that after reading those excerpts (and the ones you objected to from TUF), I have to say that I prefer TUF's style, even though I have found TUF to be abrasive in the past.

It's true that bsh1 is much calmer, but also that the conversation doesn't progress much. Josh_b was very aggressive, but he also had some legitimate complaints which bsh1 didn't address at all. I'm pretty sure that TUF would have addressed the actual substance of the comments.

And about the hall of fame - bsh1 just backed down, basically, when Airmax intervened. And for a couple of other questions on that thread, he never really answered them except in the vaguest of terms.

I get that you've seen him in other contexts, so you have a different perspective, but my own view is that avoidance is just one strategy to handle conflict, and when people over-rely on it, they don't make good leaders. I don't know enough about bsh1 to say whether or not that's the case with him, but that would be my biggest concern after reading the examples you provided.
Mirza
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12/11/2013 8:13:32 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
About being calm versus aggressive in tone - some of you should take psychology classes. Targeting your audience through different roles easily changes the way you communicate.
bsh1
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12/11/2013 8:19:26 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/11/2013 7:39:17 AM, rross wrote:
At 12/11/2013 6:31:21 AM, ClassicRobert wrote:
At 12/11/2013 1:42:06 AM, rross wrote:
At 12/11/2013 1:17:10 AM, YYW wrote:
The kind of person who will represent DDO to juggle will be levelheaded especially under pressure from competing interests and tension from contrasting objectives from multiple parties, they will be mature even when things don't go their way, they will understand the DDO community and not alienate other members even when they disagree with their perspective and they will not dismiss opposition as "negativity" that needs to be dismissed because it is "negativity." They will instead listen, learn and proceed prudently. Bsh1 and Thett represent all of those things..

YYW, could you please link an example of when bsh1 has been under pressure and when things haven't gone his way? I'd barely heard of him before the election so it would be good to see an example of him handling conflict.

If I may-

Notice the way he responds to criticisms and confrontational posts in a calm manner- that is the way a leader speaks. This example is just the most recent example I could think of.

http://www.debate.org...

I'll point to his responses to imabench in general, beginning with post 67. Imabench took serious issue with Bsh1 increasing the number of people inducted into the Hall of Fame, as that is ima's thing, and while Bsh1 ended up dropping it, nothing that Bsh1 said could be perceived as escalating the conflict. His responses also seemed to calm imabench down.

Then, when BlackVoid and Raisor raised valid critiques of a specific aspect of Bsh1's platform, he responded in a calm manner that prevented it from turning into a conflict, which is fundamentally different than the way that TUF went about criticisms (not in that thread, but in other threads)

However, a huge part of what made me specifically understand his conflict resolution abilities is hard for me to link to because it wasn't on DDO. For a few weeks, he ran a political twitter account with me. When you tweet from an account like that, you get responses from literally some of the most idiotic, most confrontational people you can imagine (I mean, hey, it's Twitter). However, he never caved, he never insulted back, he never escalated the conflict, and in most cases, he was able to make these people, who almost seemed like they were there for the sole purpose of confrontation, stop insulting him. It was really interesting to watch that happen.

OK thanks. That's interesting.

It must be just style preference, because I have to say that after reading those excerpts (and the ones you objected to from TUF), I have to say that I prefer TUF's style, even though I have found TUF to be abrasive in the past.

It's true that bsh1 is much calmer, but also that the conversation doesn't progress much. Josh_b was very aggressive, but he also had some legitimate complaints which bsh1 didn't address at all. I'm pretty sure that TUF would have addressed the actual substance of the comments.

And about the hall of fame - bsh1 just backed down, basically, when Airmax intervened. And for a couple of other questions on that thread, he never really answered them except in the vaguest of terms.

I think I did have a meaningful discourse with Bench. Even after our disagreement, he was still willing to endorse me.

I get that you've seen him in other contexts, so you have a different perspective, but my own view is that avoidance is just one strategy to handle conflict, and when people over-rely on it, they don't make good leaders. I don't know enough about bsh1 to say whether or not that's the case with him, but that would be my biggest concern after reading the examples you provided.

Hi!

I would not characterize myself as being conflict averse. As a debater, I often find myself taking hard (or unpopular) stands. I am definitely willing to engage in conflict when necessary, but I would prefer that the discussion remain calm and levelheaded. When anger and frustration are allowed to prevail, it is hard to have an effective discourse and to reach a suitable solution.

I am on my phone right now, but--if you would like--I would be willing to PM you some examples of me in disagreements, but where I also sought diplomatic compromises, as soon as I get to a regular computer.
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TUF
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12/11/2013 8:52:53 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/11/2013 7:02:48 AM, ClassicRobert wrote:
Also, it should be added (because I would like to see you improve at this), that asking questions as a rebuttal is generally not a good way to keep tensions from escalating. I don't generally respond negatively to them, but they have a way of pushing people into a mental corner, which brings out the fight or flight response in many.

Thanks for this, CR, this is a very important issue that you have brought up. And while I can certainly understand where you find this similar to a rebuttal, I hope you don't mind allowing me to quickly make a statement on my experience in this area as I believe it can also help you as much as it has me.

From years of playing mafia, I have gleaned certain psychological tactics that can be productively used in almost any conversation, even outside of the game. One of the biggest tools learned, is one that I have witnessed FourTrouble and F-16_Fighting_Falcon use in the past, and that is the question.

I think you said it perfectly in this statement: "they have a way of pushing people into a mental corner, which brings out the fight or flight response in many." This feeling, from my experience, is generally caused by the perception that the question implies one's beliefs. A person who is un-confident in such answers, will tend to "back in to a corner", seem defensive, or address the question as if it is a belief. From a mafia perspective, one might then inquire why, if someone has nothing to hide, would they be acting in such ways. The same ideal can be applied to questions anywhere else. If a person is fully willing and able to answer a specific question, and with confidence, it can be hypothesized that the action in question was made soundly, with full dis-course of information, and was not made out of ignorance. With that said, I cannot control whether tensions escalate, if the reasons behind them our beyond my control. If asking a question is to be instantly interpreted as that of a rebuttal, the responsibility on how to react to such a question, is up to the answering party, which will also dictate where tensions "escalate" or do not.

TL;DR?

A question that is generally seeking information, cannot be a rebuttal unless it is rhetorical, or has no purpose or placement in the conversation.

Moving on, let me now address specifically why I think my questions to you are important. Upon your leaving as my vice president, many questions have been raised, that I myself am not suited to answer appropriately. Based on the questions that have been raised, it is safe to assume that upon your leaving, some members felt that their wasn't a proper enough explanation given as to your true reasons, or motives. The lack there-of of a specific answers, has led members like YYW and Imabench to make public assumptions about my integrity, based on the actions of an external entity (IE you).

So since you have yourself stated that you can handle questions well, and given that the election is literally tomorrow, I deem it necessary, and think other would too, for you to answer these pertinent questions. If at anytime during my questioning, you feel you fit the criteria of being "backed into a corner", please let me know, and the questioning will stop, as those words instantly cease the need for any further questioning, in regards to what I have said above.
"I've got to go and grab a shirt" ~ Airmax1227
ClassicRobert
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12/11/2013 9:07:55 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/11/2013 8:52:53 AM, TUF wrote:
At 12/11/2013 7:02:48 AM, ClassicRobert wrote:
Also, it should be added (because I would like to see you improve at this), that asking questions as a rebuttal is generally not a good way to keep tensions from escalating. I don't generally respond negatively to them, but they have a way of pushing people into a mental corner, which brings out the fight or flight response in many.

Thanks for this, CR, this is a very important issue that you have brought up. And while I can certainly understand where you find this similar to a rebuttal, I hope you don't mind allowing me to quickly make a statement on my experience in this area as I believe it can also help you as much as it has me.

From years of playing mafia, I have gleaned certain psychological tactics that can be productively used in almost any conversation, even outside of the game. One of the biggest tools learned, is one that I have witnessed FourTrouble and F-16_Fighting_Falcon use in the past, and that is the question.

I think you said it perfectly in this statement: "they have a way of pushing people into a mental corner, which brings out the fight or flight response in many." This feeling, from my experience, is generally caused by the perception that the question implies one's beliefs. A person who is un-confident in such answers, will tend to "back in to a corner", seem defensive, or address the question as if it is a belief. From a mafia perspective, one might then inquire why, if someone has nothing to hide, would they be acting in such ways. The same ideal can be applied to questions anywhere else. If a person is fully willing and able to answer a specific question, and with confidence, it can be hypothesized that the action in question was made soundly, with full dis-course of information, and was not made out of ignorance. With that said, I cannot control whether tensions escalate, if the reasons behind them our beyond my control. If asking a question is to be instantly interpreted as that of a rebuttal, the responsibility on how to react to such a question, is up to the answering party, which will also dictate where tensions "escalate" or do not.

TL;DR?

A question that is generally seeking information, cannot be a rebuttal unless it is rhetorical, or has no purpose or placement in the conversation.

Moving on, let me now address specifically why I think my questions to you are important. Upon your leaving as my vice president, many questions have been raised, that I myself am not suited to answer appropriately. Based on the questions that have been raised, it is safe to assume that upon your leaving, some members felt that their wasn't a proper enough explanation given as to your true reasons, or motives. The lack there-of of a specific answers, has led members like YYW and Imabench to make public assumptions about my integrity, based on the actions of an external entity (IE you).

So since you have yourself stated that you can handle questions well, and given that the election is literally tomorrow, I deem it necessary, and think other would too, for you to answer these pertinent questions. If at anytime during my questioning, you feel you fit the criteria of being "backed into a corner", please let me know, and the questioning will stop, as those words instantly cease the need for any further questioning, in regards to what I have said above.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not interpreting those questions as a rebuttal or anything. It's just that those reminded me of the way you addressed YYW, Imabench, Citrakayah, Zaradi, etc. and I thought that it would be constructive to offer that advice so you don't continue to escalate conflict last the point where it needs to be in the future.

However, I have addressed exactly why I left in the thread I linked you to and in the thread where I first announced my withdrawal from your ticket , and I have answered any questions that were messaged to me or asked to me in the forums. I don't believe that you lack integrity, I just believe that you lack the ability to be a leader within the DDO community, and I have made it perfectly clear why that is so. I am, of course, flattered that users like YYW and Imabench hold my views in such high esteem, and I am honored that they take my reasoning to be reasoning for themselves.

And anyway, look back a few posts. I did answer those questions that you put forth.
Debate me: Economic decision theory should be adjusted to include higher-order preferences for non-normative purposes http://www.debate.org...

Do you really believe that? Or not? If you believe it, you should man up and defend it in a debate. -RoyLatham

My Pet Fish is such a Douche- NiamC

It's an app to meet friends and stuff, sort of like an adult club penguin- Thett3, describing Tinder
TUF
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12/11/2013 9:19:17 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/11/2013 6:59:49 AM, ClassicRobert wrote:
At 12/11/2013 6:42:18 AM, TUF wrote:
ClassicRobert, again for the sake of those following the conversation only, could you answer a few questions for me? Also your initiative in assisting another member in a professional tone is very respectable. My questions are as follows:

1. Could you give a personal definition of the word "calm" as you see it?

Well, in regards to posting, I would say that calm is represented through a rational tone. If there is a confrontational tone, or if the user posting it is showing that the user is taking something personally, than it is clear that the user is not posting with a calm mind.

Do you think there is a difference in identifying an item that is meant to be personal, and a member himself actually taking offense to something personal?

If so, can you demonstrate where I have shown to have taken something as personal, rather than merely identifying that something was meant that way?

2. Would you mind finding a few examples during this election where you specifically found that I didn't match that definition?

For this question, I'll just point you to post 86 of this thread. I gave a two examples there. http://www.debate.org...

http://www.debate.org...

You referenced this post here. Can you define where in context, my speech doesn't seem calm as per your definition?

http://www.debate.org...

You also referenced this post. Same as above, can you point out where in context of my speech, my tone did not represent that of your definition of calm?

Do you believe the expression of confusion, contradicts that of a calm tenure, and if so can you explain why?

Though it is the role of the president to resolve conflict, I could only see him getting involved as escalating the conflict, which lead me to doubt his abilities as a leader.

In the post you referenced here, you stated this statement ^.

Do you believe resolving conflicts should rely in the hands of a moderator, or a president? What direct aspects of confrontation do you believe a president should involve himself in, if not the above? If you answered a president to the first question, where do you think the line was in determining that as someone offering their candidacy towards the role, should I, or should I not have involved myself in such a situation?


3. And finally, would you mind stating exactly what you feel the role of a president is, and demonstrating how you feel my behavior contradicted that role?

The role of the president is to be a leader within the community and to be a liaison between the DDO community and Juggle. With leadership, however, comes a certain level of responsibility to the community, which includes A.) being able to take criticisms in a non-personal manner,

Agreed.

B.) being able to resolve conflicts, and C.) if not resolve, the leader should at least be able to be involved in conflicts without being responsible for the escalation of said conflicts.

Do you believe if a leader is involved in a conflict, that any escalation thereof is automatically assigned to his responsibility?

6 Days ago, you made this thread:
http://www.debate.org...

In this thread, you gave a number of statements including this one:

This is the fundamental difference between TUF and the other candidates. Though I believe that every candidate in the running is respected within the community and will do a fine job with the position of leadership, TUF has the potential to fundamentally change the nature of presidential advocacy towards Juggle to be more than just asking for change. TUF is a man of action, and that is why I support him for the presidency.

In what ways has "conflict resolution" effected the things expressed in that thread, such that they are no longer true, so much that you have chosen to support contradicting ideals of those belonging to another candidate?

In the 2013 presidential discussion thread started by Mikal, you stated the following:

Anyway, to address imabench's liberal banning policy: we think it is an well-intentioned, but ultimately unwise idea. Banning has always been and should always be taken as a last resort, after everything else has been tried, except in extreme cases. Some of these extreme cases might include sexual harassment of other members or posting member's personal information to the forums. Banning needs to be based on standards which are as objective as we can possibly make them, and standards like the above are objective.

http://www.debate.org...

Given that the liberal banning policy is something that bsh1 and thett3 have included in their own platform, what in the past 5 days (the start of that thread), has changed your mind on the liberal banning policy?

That is all I have for now.
"I've got to go and grab a shirt" ~ Airmax1227
TUF
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12/11/2013 9:52:08 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/11/2013 9:07:55 AM, ClassicRobert wrote:
Don't get me wrong, I'm not interpreting those questions as a rebuttal or anything. It's just that those reminded me of the way you addressed YYW, Imabench, Citrakayah, Zaradi, etc. and I thought that it would be constructive to offer that advice so you don't continue to escalate conflict last the point where it needs to be in the future.

Your advice as always, is appreciated :)

Do you think that my questions imabench/citrakyah were designed to cause a tension excalation, or do you think they were a method of gaining information for public viewing? Given that you expressed contention with some of their ideals, do you think that any "escalation", could be attributed to your nicely worded "backed into a corner" mentality?

However, I have addressed exactly why I left in the thread I linked you to and in the thread where I first announced my withdrawal from your ticket , and I have answered any questions that were messaged to me or asked to me in the forums. I don't believe that you lack integrity, I just believe that you lack the ability to be a leader within the DDO community, and I have made it perfectly clear why that is so.

If you think you were clear in your answers, do you think it would be good to address speculations as to your leaving my CP yourself, or to leave them up in the air as they have been?

I am, of course, flattered that users like YYW and Imabench hold my views in such high esteem, and I am honored that they take my reasoning to be reasoning for themselves.

Do you believe that their public speculations as to your motives properly accredit your statement of them taking your "reasoning to be reasoning"?

I'll post qoutes for references:

Imabench: but if someone's own VP drops out because he thinks that the other campaign is a far better option, then his OWN ticket.... Then he is seeing something that the rest of us arent necessarily seeing, and that is a HUGE red flag for me, and I think it should raise up a red flag to you too.

This statement suggests speculation that there may be more to your motives than what you have stated.

And anyway, look back a few posts. I did answer those questions that you put forth.

You did, thankyou :) I did have further questions based on some of those things you stated also. The questions have already been posed. Thanks again, and Cheerio mate!
"I've got to go and grab a shirt" ~ Airmax1227
ClassicRobert
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12/11/2013 12:22:35 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/11/2013 9:19:17 AM, TUF wrote:
At 12/11/2013 6:59:49 AM, ClassicRobert wrote:
At 12/11/2013 6:42:18 AM, TUF wrote:
ClassicRobert, again for the sake of those following the conversation only, could you answer a few questions for me? Also your initiative in assisting another member in a professional tone is very respectable. My questions are as follows:

1. Could you give a personal definition of the word "calm" as you see it?

Well, in regards to posting, I would say that calm is represented through a rational tone. If there is a confrontational tone, or if the user posting it is showing that the user is taking something personally, than it is clear that the user is not posting with a calm mind.

Do you think there is a difference in identifying an item that is meant to be personal, and a member himself actually taking offense to something personal?

If so, can you demonstrate where I have shown to have taken something as personal, rather than merely identifying that something was meant that way?

The post that this is linked to quite clearly shows that you took something personally when there is no rational basis or advantage towards taking it that way. I answered this in the post where I explained it, and I don't care to answer it again.

2. Would you mind finding a few examples during this election where you specifically found that I didn't match that definition?

For this question, I'll just point you to post 86 of this thread. I gave a two examples there. http://www.debate.org...

http://www.debate.org...

You referenced this post here. Can you define where in context, my speech doesn't seem calm as per your definition?

I'm not going to do a literary analysis of the post. It is quite clear that you overreacted, took it personally, and that the post had a confrontational tone.

http://www.debate.org...

You also referenced this post. Same as above, can you point out where in context of my speech, my tone did not represent that of your definition of calm?

When you indicated that continuing the discourse was a waste of your time.

Do you believe the expression of confusion, contradicts that of a calm tenure, and if so can you explain why?

Depends on the situation.
Though it is the role of the president to resolve conflict, I could only see him getting involved as escalating the conflict, which lead me to doubt his abilities as a leader.

In the post you referenced here, you stated this statement ^.

Do you believe resolving conflicts should rely in the hands of a moderator, or a president? What direct aspects of confrontation do you believe a president should involve himself in, if not the above? If you answered a president to the first question, where do you think the line was in determining that as someone offering their candidacy towards the role, should I, or should I not have involved myself in such a situation?

When two members get into a heated dispute to the point where the users are actually getting angry to the point of insults, the leader of a community should get involved. If you are involved in a conflict, the leader of the community should by no means speak in a way that escalates the conflict. The leader should be someone that can mediate disputes, and that is in the President's hands. If the president cannot do this, then the president is serving as no use to a community that needs a diplomat.

3. And finally, would you mind stating exactly what you feel the role of a president is, and demonstrating how you feel my behavior contradicted that role?

The role of the president is to be a leader within the community and to be a liaison between the DDO community and Juggle. With leadership, however, comes a certain level of responsibility to the community, which includes A.) being able to take criticisms in a non-personal manner,

Agreed.

B.) being able to resolve conflicts, and C.) if not resolve, the leader should at least be able to be involved in conflicts without being responsible for the escalation of said conflicts.

Do you believe if a leader is involved in a conflict, that any escalation thereof is automatically assigned to his responsibility?

It obviously depends on context, but it is clear when the leader is involved in the escalation of tensions.

6 Days ago, you made this thread:
http://www.debate.org...

In this thread, you gave a number of statements including this one:

This is the fundamental difference between TUF and the other candidates. Though I believe that every candidate in the running is respected within the community and will do a fine job with the position of leadership, TUF has the potential to fundamentally change the nature of presidential advocacy towards Juggle to be more than just asking for change. TUF is a man of action, and that is why I support him for the presidency.

In what ways has "conflict resolution" effected the things expressed in that thread, such that they are no longer true, so much that you have chosen to support contradicting ideals of those belonging to another candidate?

It's not that they are not true, it's just that it doesn't matter. You've said yourself that you are going to be working towards site updates and making voting initiatives regardless of whether or not you win. This means that those things are irrelevant to this election, so ability in conflict resolution becomes much more serious in relations to this election. I have seen Bsh1's effectiveness in this regard, on here and on twitter. He doesn't tend to escalate conflict, while I have seen nothing of late from you other than conflict escalation.
In the 2013 presidential discussion thread started by Mikal, you stated the following:

Anyway, to address imabench's liberal banning policy: we think it is an well-intentioned, but ultimately unwise idea. Banning has always been and should always be taken as a last resort, after everything else has been tried, except in extreme cases. Some of these extreme cases might include sexual harassment of other members or posting member's personal information to the forums. Banning needs to be based on standards which are as objective as we can possibly make them, and standards like the above are objective.

http://www.debate.org...

Given that the liberal banning policy is something that bsh1 and thett3 have included in their own platform, what in the past 5 days (the start of that thread), has changed your mind on the liberal banning policy?

My only real objection to the liberal banning policy as Imabench presented it was that it had the "idiot" clause. Bsh1 does not include that, and seems to be referring more to temp bans to enforce the rules that we already have rather than permabans. I have no problem with this.
That is all I have for now.
Debate me: Economic decision theory should be adjusted to include higher-order preferences for non-normative purposes http://www.debate.org...

Do you really believe that? Or not? If you believe it, you should man up and defend it in a debate. -RoyLatham

My Pet Fish is such a Douche- NiamC

It's an app to meet friends and stuff, sort of like an adult club penguin- Thett3, describing Tinder
ClassicRobert
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12/11/2013 12:32:13 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/11/2013 9:52:08 AM, TUF wrote:
At 12/11/2013 9:07:55 AM, ClassicRobert wrote:
Don't get me wrong, I'm not interpreting those questions as a rebuttal or anything. It's just that those reminded me of the way you addressed YYW, Imabench, Citrakayah, Zaradi, etc. and I thought that it would be constructive to offer that advice so you don't continue to escalate conflict last the point where it needs to be in the future.

Your advice as always, is appreciated :)

Do you think that my questions imabench/citrakyah were designed to cause a tension excalation, or do you think they were a method of gaining information for public viewing? Given that you expressed contention with some of their ideals, do you think that any "escalation", could be attributed to your nicely worded "backed into a corner" mentality?

I don't believe they were designed to, but the fact that you did so unintentionally is what is so worrying. And yes, it is largely due to the "backed into a corner" mentality that your use of questions created.

However, I have addressed exactly why I left in the thread I linked you to and in the thread where I first announced my withdrawal from your ticket , and I have answered any questions that were messaged to me or asked to me in the forums. I don't believe that you lack integrity, I just believe that you lack the ability to be a leader within the DDO community, and I have made it perfectly clear why that is so.

If you think you were clear in your answers, do you think it would be good to address speculations as to your leaving my CP yourself, or to leave them up in the air as they have been?

I have said all that I needed to say, and what I have said gets across exactly the meaning that I attribute to it. If people choose to make assumptions based on it, that is their problem.
I am, of course, flattered that users like YYW and Imabench hold my views in such high esteem, and I am honored that they take my reasoning to be reasoning for themselves.

Do you believe that their public speculations as to your motives properly accredit your statement of them taking your "reasoning to be reasoning"?

I'll post qoutes for references:

Imabench: but if someone's own VP drops out because he thinks that the other campaign is a far better option, then his OWN ticket.... Then he is seeing something that the rest of us arent necessarily seeing, and that is a HUGE red flag for me, and I think it should raise up a red flag to you too.

This statement suggests speculation that there may be more to your motives than what you have stated.

Like I said, if people choose to speculate past what I have written, that's their choice. I said what I needed to say, and I'm just flattered that users like Imabench and YYW take my views to heart.
And anyway, look back a few posts. I did answer those questions that you put forth.

You did, thankyou :) I did have further questions based on some of those things you stated also. The questions have already been posed. Thanks again, and Cheerio mate!

I would like to add here that this sort of response by you, with all of the questions used in an attempt to make a point, is exactly the sort of behavior you need need to stop if you really want to get better at not escalating conflict.
Debate me: Economic decision theory should be adjusted to include higher-order preferences for non-normative purposes http://www.debate.org...

Do you really believe that? Or not? If you believe it, you should man up and defend it in a debate. -RoyLatham

My Pet Fish is such a Douche- NiamC

It's an app to meet friends and stuff, sort of like an adult club penguin- Thett3, describing Tinder
TUF
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12/11/2013 2:34:48 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Thankyou ClassicRobert. I think you gave given enough quality answers, that if anyone has any further questions or speculations, your answers here can be referenced to give a better clarification of things. And I apologize if you think my friendly sentiments were intended to be insulting. I hope you can take me at my word that they were meant to be genuine, and to make the situation more comfortable for you.
"I've got to go and grab a shirt" ~ Airmax1227
Cermank
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12/12/2013 1:11:59 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/11/2013 2:32:39 AM, YYW wrote:
At 12/11/2013 2:12:10 AM, Cermank wrote:
At 12/11/2013 1:17:10 AM, YYW wrote:


TUF has demonstrated that he's good at site development. Being good at site development is not sufficient to indicate that one will also, if good at site development, also be a good president. There has been a lot of talk about how much TUF has personally sacrificed for the DDO community. On the surface, that seems like a good thing -but in reality it tells me that he wants to be liked more than he wants to lead.

Why do you think someone dedicating his time to the site is doing that solely to be liked?

For the x^[n]th time, I did not say that TUF does this only to be liked. I have never doubted his commitment to the community, either. I believe that TUf is a well intending guy who believes that he can do a good job as present, and therefore is running because he wants to serve the community. I also believe, to the same extent, that his desire to be in others' good favor presents a problem. The reason it presents a problem is this: he will constantly be caught between adversarial parties. Sometimes that tension is more intense than others -but when the cards don't fall as TUF sees fit, he has on repeated occasions lashed out, and so in unproductive ways. That he means well does not vindicate his failures to exercise good judgement under pressure.

That's contradictory.

On one hand, you believe he desires to be in other's good books. At the same time, you contend he has lashed out when the 'cards don't fall as he pleases'? Either he's a pushover, due to his desire to please everyone- or he stands his ground. He can't be both.

Working for the community indicates that he's a good worker, and that he is committed to community development -not that he is an adequate candidate for president. These distinctions matter.

They sure do.

YYW. This is an online debate site. Don't you think you're overthinking and imposing an abstract standard of perfection on TUF (and only TUF, I must add) required for the managing it?

And I have no idea what you mean by "draconian" when used in this context. Aside from spelling it wrong, it's spelled "draconian" not "draconion" -draconian means excessively harsh or severe. Nothing about what I have said is excessively harsh or severe.

My bad.

Anyway, you can still work with people even if you have a deep innate desire for them to like you, you don't really have to boss them over. Which is what I assumed you meant when you pointed out he was a people pleaser.


No, he's not. Thett is calm under pressure, and doesn't react with bombast and vitriol when things don't go his way. He doesn't personally internalize disagreement as an assault on his character. Neither does bsh1. TUF does both of those things.

Nowhere did TUF react with bombast and vitriol. He asked you to explain WHY you believed he had a crappy personality. Because that's what you said in your OP. You took it that way.

Being president means this: If you are the president, then your role is to function as a liaison between DDO and Juggle. This means that whenever Juggle comes up with something they want, you weigh that against the interests of the DDO community and whenever the community comes up with something they want, the president makes the best case s/he can to Juggle to make it happen. That's the beginning and end of what it means to be a president -as the role is defined. So, it's a service position only insofar as one is representing the interests of the DDO community to Juggle. No more. Knowing how to code has noting to do with being president. Giving away free implements of technology at one's personal expense has nothing to do with being president.

I know, YYW. And I agree with this. It is an added benefit. It strengthens the president's case to push for developments. If he wants to push for team debates, he can show them the requisite codes in addition to the proposal- which makes it much more difficult to turn down- than if he were to show them a mere petition. It is an asset to Juggle.


I don't where you are getting this from, tbh.

I know you don't, which is why I'm willing to explain this even though I feel like I'm running in circles. The reason you don't see this the way I do is because you haven't worked side by side with Airmax as his Chief of Staff, and you don't understand what the actual demands of a president are. This is unfortunate, but I'm doing the only thing I can here: hope that people will understand what it means to be president, and select the best person for the job. Not pick a guy who means well but whose personality will harm the DDO community because he could not be an effective liaison between DDO and Juggle.

You can't be cryptic and expect me to 'understand'. I haven't worked side by side with Airmax, so I don't know what these mystery duties are. In any case, given that airmax himself said that he believes that 'TUF is certainly qualified to be the DDO President', I wouldn't think these deficiencies are nearly as huge as you are making them out to be.

Post #17:
http://www.debate.org...