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Can I counter-vomb?

GarretKadeDupre
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1/5/2014 12:46:43 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
Some vote-bombs aren't very obvious. For example, "Juan-Pablo"'s vote on the infamous Minimum Wage debate between Beverlee and I:

The Burden of proof was on Con to show why minimum wage should be eliminated, against established precedent in the United States and most other industrialized countries. This was indicated in Round 1. Because Con did not achieve this, Pro wins the debate. Secondly Pro was able to show that one of Con's critical sources has made incorrect predictions before on addressing how minimum wage hikes effect employment ( the actual results showed the complete opposite effect, dismaying staunch capitalists!). Fantastic arguments by the way. Very well presented, Pro! I would have enjoyed this debate much more if Pro showed how the lack of sufficient minimum wage hikes in the U.S. ( to match inflation ) has led to the diminishing of the middle class and the expansion of the bottom class.

You see, anyone who actually read the whole debate would realize that this RFD was construed solely to disguise an otherwise blatant votebomb.

Secondly Pro was able to show that one of Con's critical sources has made incorrect predictions before on addressing how minimum wage hikes effect employment ( the actual results showed the complete opposite effect, dismaying staunch capitalists!).


I cited a paper that did some math to determine a number related to employment in the PAST.

Beverlee (probably knowingly) tried to discredit my source by arguing that the organization which wrote the paper has done an awful job at predicting future employment... HOWEVER, that does not discredit their research on the PAST.

Beverlee used a red herring / strawman whatever you wanna call it. I called her out on it, yet my opponent still totally jumped on this opportunity to justify his votebombing.

If I see votes like this in the future, I'm going to counter them, and I'm not the only one who's declared this publicly.

Will I be banned? lol
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bsh1
Posts: 27,504
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1/5/2014 1:15:51 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/5/2014 12:46:43 AM, GarretKadeDupre wrote:
Some vote-bombs aren't very obvious. For example, "Juan-Pablo"'s vote on the infamous Minimum Wage debate between Beverlee and I:

The Burden of proof was on Con to show why minimum wage should be eliminated, against established precedent in the United States and most other industrialized countries. This was indicated in Round 1. Because Con did not achieve this, Pro wins the debate. Secondly Pro was able to show that one of Con's critical sources has made incorrect predictions before on addressing how minimum wage hikes effect employment ( the actual results showed the complete opposite effect, dismaying staunch capitalists!). Fantastic arguments by the way. Very well presented, Pro! I would have enjoyed this debate much more if Pro showed how the lack of sufficient minimum wage hikes in the U.S. ( to match inflation ) has led to the diminishing of the middle class and the expansion of the bottom class.

You see, anyone who actually read the whole debate would realize that this RFD was construed solely to disguise an otherwise blatant votebomb.

Secondly Pro was able to show that one of Con's critical sources has made incorrect predictions before on addressing how minimum wage hikes effect employment ( the actual results showed the complete opposite effect, dismaying staunch capitalists!).


I cited a paper that did some math to determine a number related to employment in the PAST.

Really, that shows that the judge didn't read carefully enough. Point it out to them--challenge their RFD. This is where such a challenge is appropriate and useful.

Beverlee (probably knowingly) tried to discredit my source by arguing that the organization which wrote the paper has done an awful job at predicting future employment... HOWEVER, that does not discredit their research on the PAST.

Beverlee used a red herring / strawman whatever you wanna call it. I called her out on it, yet my opponent still totally jumped on this opportunity to justify his votebombing.

I really doubt that Beverlee would be that dishonest or stoop that low in a debate. From my interaction with her, I would vouch for her impartiality and integrity. I am also a bit disconcerted that you would personally discredit someone in such a public fashion as this, but that is another topic entirely.

If I see votes like this in the future, I'm going to counter them, and I'm not the only one who's declared this publicly.

Will I be banned? lol

Counter-votes are now being discouraged, I believe. I think what you're supposed to do is report them using the red flag button and wait for them to be taken down.
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GarretKadeDupre
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1/5/2014 1:17:18 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
I really doubt that Beverlee would be that dishonest or stoop that low in a debate. From my interaction with her, I would vouch for her impartiality and integrity. I am also a bit disconcerted that you would personally discredit someone in such a public fashion as this, but that is another topic entirely.

I'm not attacking her personally, just pointing out a fallacy she used in that particular debate.

I've done it myself on purpose in some debates... doesn't make me a bad person, does it? lol...
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Ore_Ele
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1/5/2014 1:19:17 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
No, but your voting privileges could be removed. If you read a debate thoroughly enough to recognize a poor vote, then just vote on the debate as the vote should be. You're vote should be completely independent for anything outside of the debate, which includes but is not limited to, comments, forums, PMs, and other RFDs.
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bsh1
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1/5/2014 1:36:24 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/5/2014 1:17:18 AM, GarretKadeDupre wrote:
I really doubt that Beverlee would be that dishonest or stoop that low in a debate. From my interaction with her, I would vouch for her impartiality and integrity. I am also a bit disconcerted that you would personally discredit someone in such a public fashion as this, but that is another topic entirely.

I'm not attacking her personally, just pointing out a fallacy she used in that particular debate.

I've done it myself on purpose in some debates... doesn't make me a bad person, does it? lol...

I am not saying that you're personally attacking her, but rather that you are publicly saying that she did something wrong. Typical protocol on DDO is to not name people in cases like these.

Instead, you say things like "some used an argument that..." or "someone votebombed..."

I just find it a bit inappropriate to call people out in such a public fashion when a PM expressing your concerns would suffice.
Live Long and Prosper

I'm a Bish.


"Twilight isn't just about obtuse metaphors between cannibalism and premarital sex, it also teaches us the futility of hope." - Raisor

"[Bsh1] is the Guinan of DDO." - ButterCatX

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GarretKadeDupre
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1/5/2014 1:40:41 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/5/2014 1:19:17 AM, Ore_Ele wrote:
No, but your voting privileges could be removed. If you read a debate thoroughly enough to recognize a poor vote, then just vote on the debate as the vote should be. You're vote should be completely independent for anything outside of the debate, which includes but is not limited to, comments, forums, PMs, and other RFDs.

ah ok
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Stephen_Hawkins
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1/5/2014 6:30:29 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/5/2014 1:19:17 AM, Ore_Ele wrote:
No, but your voting privileges could be removed. If you read a debate thoroughly enough to recognize a poor vote, then just vote on the debate as the vote should be. You're vote should be completely independent for anything outside of the debate, which includes but is not limited to, comments, forums, PMs, and other RFDs.

This. A votebomb is a case of someone undeniably casting a vote with no justification other than malice. You can claim you said X, Y, and Z all you want. However, that does not mean the message got across. Debating, like all forms of communication, requires good explanatory skills and an ability to convey key ideas clearly and in a fashion that is emphasised when you present your case. If a reader did not get a point you put across, you cannot blame the reader for that.

A votebomb fits into a simple category: that which does not take into consideration the debate. This is defensible as a vote, and as such cannot be counter-votebombed.
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GarretKadeDupre
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1/5/2014 3:17:52 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/5/2014 6:30:29 AM, Stephen_Hawkins wrote:
At 1/5/2014 1:19:17 AM, Ore_Ele wrote:
No, but your voting privileges could be removed. If you read a debate thoroughly enough to recognize a poor vote, then just vote on the debate as the vote should be. You're vote should be completely independent for anything outside of the debate, which includes but is not limited to, comments, forums, PMs, and other RFDs.

This. A votebomb is a case of someone undeniably casting a vote with no justification other than malice. You can claim you said X, Y, and Z all you want. However, that does not mean the message got across. Debating, like all forms of communication, requires good explanatory skills and an ability to convey key ideas clearly and in a fashion that is emphasised when you present your case. If a reader did not get a point you put across, you cannot blame the reader for that.

A votebomb fits into a simple category: that which does not take into consideration the debate. This is defensible as a vote, and as such cannot be counter-votebombed.

ok ty
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sadolite
Posts: 8,838
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1/5/2014 3:31:09 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Can I counter-vomb?

Yes
It's not your views that divide us, it's what you think my views should be that divides us.

If you think I will give up my rights and forsake social etiquette to make you "FEEL" better you are sadly mistaken

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