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Communism and Capitalism

yay842
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1/16/2014 12:16:22 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
Just to be sure I got the definitions correct:

Communism: you own nothing, you work for the government, if you don't, the government shoots you in the face

Capitalism: the masses must fight against each other to have more money than the other

sounds about right?
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airmax1227
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1/16/2014 12:21:14 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/16/2014 12:16:22 AM, yay842 wrote:
Just to be sure I got the definitions correct:

Communism: you own nothing, you work for the government, if you don't, the government shoots you in the face

Capitalism: the masses must fight against each other to have more money than the other

sounds about right?

There might be a bit more nuance to it than that. Either way, it's probably worth checking out a dictionary.
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FREEDO
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1/16/2014 12:44:23 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
No, I think that's far too simplistic.

However, I echo the mood of the post, that both ideologies are failures. But I extend this to say that all ideologies are this way.
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yay842
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1/16/2014 1:21:43 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
the basic definition in the simplest form of what it basically is
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FREEDO
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1/16/2014 1:23:40 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/16/2014 1:21:43 AM, yay842 wrote:
the basic definition in the simplest form of what it basically is

Actually, Communism, by definition, is opposed to the state. But states have taken the title.
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yay842
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1/16/2014 1:25:19 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/16/2014 1:23:40 AM, FREEDO wrote:
At 1/16/2014 1:21:43 AM, yay842 wrote:
the basic definition in the simplest form of what it basically is

Actually, Communism, by definition, is opposed to the state. But states have taken the title.

so Communsim is basically govt owns everything, you own nothing. profit all goes to govt to control your life. you have no life. you profit the govt. something like that
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Cheetah
Posts: 106
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1/16/2014 1:46:54 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/16/2014 1:25:19 AM, yay842 wrote:
At 1/16/2014 1:23:40 AM, FREEDO wrote:
At 1/16/2014 1:21:43 AM, yay842 wrote:
the basic definition in the simplest form of what it basically is

Actually, Communism, by definition, is opposed to the state. But states have taken the title.

so Communsim is basically govt owns everything, you own nothing. profit all goes to govt to control your life. you have no life. you profit the govt. something like that

According to the Communist Manifesto, Communism is a utopia where the society is a classless, collectivist society. Government and state isn't spotlighted in the manifesto, however, realistically, Communism will need government influence to be established and managed. According to the Karl, Marx believes that eventually, the world will 'upgrade' into communism where feudalism is a system widely used in medieval ages, then comes Capitalism (industrial age/revolution), Karl predicted that Socialism will replace Capitalism then Communism replacing Socialism soon afterwards.
Noumena
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1/16/2014 3:17:02 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/16/2014 1:46:54 AM, Cheetah wrote:
At 1/16/2014 1:25:19 AM, yay842 wrote:
At 1/16/2014 1:23:40 AM, FREEDO wrote:
At 1/16/2014 1:21:43 AM, yay842 wrote:
the basic definition in the simplest form of what it basically is

Actually, Communism, by definition, is opposed to the state. But states have taken the title.

so Communsim is basically govt owns everything, you own nothing. profit all goes to govt to control your life. you have no life. you profit the govt. something like that

According to the Communist Manifesto, Communism is a utopia where the society is a classless, collectivist society. Government and state isn't spotlighted in the manifesto, however, realistically, Communism will need government influence to be established and managed.

Most non-Marxist communists are/were anarchists. Communism refers to a specific theory of resource allocation and hierarchical management. The concept can be codified into statist or anarchist philosophies.

According to the Karl, Marx believes that eventually, the world will 'upgrade' into communism where feudalism is a system widely used in medieval ages, then comes Capitalism (industrial age/revolution), Karl predicted that Socialism will replace Capitalism then Communism replacing Socialism soon afterwards.

Historical materialism doesn't hold a monopoly on communist theory.
: At 5/13/2014 7:05:20 PM, Crescendo wrote:
: The difference is that the gay movement is currently pushing their will on Churches, as shown in the link to gay marriage in Denmark. Meanwhile, the Inquisition ended several centuries ago.
Cheetah
Posts: 106
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1/16/2014 3:20:47 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/16/2014 3:17:02 AM, Noumena wrote:
At 1/16/2014 1:46:54 AM, Cheetah wrote:
At 1/16/2014 1:25:19 AM, yay842 wrote:
At 1/16/2014 1:23:40 AM, FREEDO wrote:
At 1/16/2014 1:21:43 AM, yay842 wrote:
the basic definition in the simplest form of what it basically is

Actually, Communism, by definition, is opposed to the state. But states have taken the title.

so Communsim is basically govt owns everything, you own nothing. profit all goes to govt to control your life. you have no life. you profit the govt. something like that

According to the Communist Manifesto, Communism is a utopia where the society is a classless, collectivist society. Government and state isn't spotlighted in the manifesto, however, realistically, Communism will need government influence to be established and managed.

Most non-Marxist communists are/were anarchists. Communism refers to a specific theory of resource allocation and hierarchical management. The concept can be codified into statist or anarchist philosophies.

According to the Karl, Marx believes that eventually, the world will 'upgrade' into communism where feudalism is a system widely used in medieval ages, then comes Capitalism (industrial age/revolution), Karl predicted that Socialism will replace Capitalism then Communism replacing Socialism soon afterwards.

Historical materialism doesn't hold a monopoly on communist theory.

Yes, communism in it's heart is anarchy, but since you are a communist, you probably know more about it than I do. Please feel free to add in further information if you have any.
Noumena
Posts: 6,047
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1/16/2014 3:22:23 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/16/2014 3:20:47 AM, Cheetah wrote:
At 1/16/2014 3:17:02 AM, Noumena wrote:
At 1/16/2014 1:46:54 AM, Cheetah wrote:
At 1/16/2014 1:25:19 AM, yay842 wrote:
At 1/16/2014 1:23:40 AM, FREEDO wrote:
At 1/16/2014 1:21:43 AM, yay842 wrote:
the basic definition in the simplest form of what it basically is

Actually, Communism, by definition, is opposed to the state. But states have taken the title.

so Communsim is basically govt owns everything, you own nothing. profit all goes to govt to control your life. you have no life. you profit the govt. something like that

According to the Communist Manifesto, Communism is a utopia where the society is a classless, collectivist society. Government and state isn't spotlighted in the manifesto, however, realistically, Communism will need government influence to be established and managed.

Most non-Marxist communists are/were anarchists. Communism refers to a specific theory of resource allocation and hierarchical management. The concept can be codified into statist or anarchist philosophies.

According to the Karl, Marx believes that eventually, the world will 'upgrade' into communism where feudalism is a system widely used in medieval ages, then comes Capitalism (industrial age/revolution), Karl predicted that Socialism will replace Capitalism then Communism replacing Socialism soon afterwards.

Historical materialism doesn't hold a monopoly on communist theory.

Yes, communism in it's heart is anarchy, but since you are a communist, you probably know more about it than I do. Please feel free to add in further information if you have any.

1) Anarchy =/= anarchism. Different connotations are different.
2) Communism need not be anarchic as I said before. It can be but it doesn't have to be. Various forms of more Orthodox Marxisms can be used as examples.
: At 5/13/2014 7:05:20 PM, Crescendo wrote:
: The difference is that the gay movement is currently pushing their will on Churches, as shown in the link to gay marriage in Denmark. Meanwhile, the Inquisition ended several centuries ago.
lannan13
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1/16/2014 7:38:48 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/16/2014 12:16:22 AM, yay842 wrote:
Just to be sure I got the definitions correct:

Communism: you own nothing, you work for the government, if you don't, the government shoots you in the face

Capitalism: the masses must fight against each other to have more money than the other

sounds about right?

Sounds right. Speeking of which I'm surprised STALIN hasn't added a comment here yet.
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FREEDO
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1/16/2014 9:14:45 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/16/2014 1:46:54 AM, Cheetah wrote:
At 1/16/2014 1:25:19 AM, yay842 wrote:
At 1/16/2014 1:23:40 AM, FREEDO wrote:
At 1/16/2014 1:21:43 AM, yay842 wrote:
the basic definition in the simplest form of what it basically is

Actually, Communism, by definition, is opposed to the state. But states have taken the title.

so Communsim is basically govt owns everything, you own nothing. profit all goes to govt to control your life. you have no life. you profit the govt. something like that

According to the Communist Manifesto, Communism is a utopia where the society is a classless, collectivist society. Government and state isn't spotlighted in the manifesto, however, realistically, Communism will need government influence to be established and managed. According to the Karl, Marx believes that eventually, the world will 'upgrade' into communism where feudalism is a system widely used in medieval ages, then comes Capitalism (industrial age/revolution), Karl predicted that Socialism will replace Capitalism then Communism replacing Socialism soon afterwards.

There was a split between Communists right from the very beginning. The Marxists, you believed that government needed to take the initial action, which would eventually evolve into Communism. And The Bakuninists who believed the government is itself an establishment of class and could only make things worse.

Marxists have Soviet Russia to show for their results.

Bakuninists have Anarchist Catalonia, which flourished for 3 years until it was crushed by both Communist and Fascist armies.

[video]
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Tophatdoc
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1/16/2014 9:28:39 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/16/2014 9:14:45 PM, FREEDO wrote:

There was a split between Communists right from the very beginning. The Marxists, you believed that government needed to take the initial action, which would eventually evolve into Communism. And The Bakuninists who believed the government is itself an establishment of class and could only make things worse.

Marxists have Soviet Russia to show for their results.

Bakuninists have Anarchist Catalonia, which flourished for 3 years until it was crushed by both Communist and Fascist armies.

[video]



There won't be any reconciliation in this relationship. Too much blood has been spilt in disagreement. Anarchists have fallen been stabbed in the back enough times by the Communists. The most prominent backstabbing was when the Bolsheviks repressed the Black Guards and abolished the Workers' Councils.
"Don't click on my profile. Don't send me friend requests. Don't read my debates. There are many interesting people on DDO. Find one of them. Go find someone exciting and loquacious. Go click on their profile. Go send them friend requests. Go read their debates. Leave me alone." -Tophatdoc
RoyLatham
Posts: 4,488
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1/17/2014 11:38:12 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/16/2014 12:16:22 AM, yay842 wrote:
Just to be sure I got the definitions correct:

Communism: you own nothing, you work for the government, if you don't, the government shoots you in the face

That's about right.

Capitalism: the masses must fight against each other to have more money than the other

Not quite. It's the way in which people fight. Under democratic socialism, the masses compete by voting for a government that gives them the most benefits for the least contribution. 51% takes from the 49%. Under capitalism, the fight is to offer goods and services that people voluntarily buy in enough quantity to make you rich. Success comes from earning rather than taking.
Noumena
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1/17/2014 2:28:52 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/17/2014 11:38:12 AM, RoyLatham wrote:
At 1/16/2014 12:16:22 AM, yay842 wrote:
Just to be sure I got the definitions correct:

Communism: you own nothing, you work for the government, if you don't, the government shoots you in the face

That's about right.

I take it you haven't bothered to educate yerself on communist philosophy and/or haven't read the explanations given by both FREEDO and myself concerning the different variations of communist thought.
: At 5/13/2014 7:05:20 PM, Crescendo wrote:
: The difference is that the gay movement is currently pushing their will on Churches, as shown in the link to gay marriage in Denmark. Meanwhile, the Inquisition ended several centuries ago.
RoyLatham
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1/17/2014 4:03:40 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/17/2014 2:28:52 PM, Noumena wrote:

I take it you haven't bothered to educate yerself on communist philosophy and/or haven't read the explanations given by both FREEDO and myself concerning the different variations of communist thought.

I'm well of the utopian visions. The problem is that they are pure bunk, unfounded in any reality and never demonstrated. Communism is exactly what is defined by the practice of communism, not by a fantastic vision.
Noumena
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1/17/2014 7:05:58 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/17/2014 4:03:40 PM, RoyLatham wrote:
At 1/17/2014 2:28:52 PM, Noumena wrote:

I take it you haven't bothered to educate yerself on communist philosophy and/or haven't read the explanations given by both FREEDO and myself concerning the different variations of communist thought.

I'm well of the utopian visions. The problem is that they are pure bunk, unfounded in any reality and never demonstrated.

Is that an argument?

Communism is exactly what is defined by the practice of communism, not by a fantastic vision.

I suppose coercive or violent business practices aren't really capitalism though.
: At 5/13/2014 7:05:20 PM, Crescendo wrote:
: The difference is that the gay movement is currently pushing their will on Churches, as shown in the link to gay marriage in Denmark. Meanwhile, the Inquisition ended several centuries ago.
dylancatlow
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1/17/2014 7:36:39 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/17/2014 7:05:58 PM, Noumena wrote:
At 1/17/2014 4:03:40 PM, RoyLatham wrote:
At 1/17/2014 2:28:52 PM, Noumena wrote:

I take it you haven't bothered to educate yerself on communist philosophy and/or haven't read the explanations given by both FREEDO and myself concerning the different variations of communist thought.

I'm well of the utopian visions. The problem is that they are pure bunk, unfounded in any reality and never demonstrated.

Is that an argument?

Communism is exactly what is defined by the practice of communism, not by a fantastic vision.


I suppose coercive or violent business practices aren't really capitalism though.

He's essentially saying that communism in practice is defined by communism in practice. On what grounds could you deny that?
Noumena
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1/17/2014 7:44:05 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/17/2014 7:36:39 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 1/17/2014 7:05:58 PM, Noumena wrote:
At 1/17/2014 4:03:40 PM, RoyLatham wrote:
At 1/17/2014 2:28:52 PM, Noumena wrote:

I take it you haven't bothered to educate yerself on communist philosophy and/or haven't read the explanations given by both FREEDO and myself concerning the different variations of communist thought.

I'm well of the utopian visions. The problem is that they are pure bunk, unfounded in any reality and never demonstrated.

Is that an argument?

Communism is exactly what is defined by the practice of communism, not by a fantastic vision.


I suppose coercive or violent business practices aren't really capitalism though.

He's essentially saying that communism in practice is defined by communism in practice. On what grounds could you deny that?

Because him, and other capitalists, would vehemently deny the same of capitalism. Hypocrisy is kinda annoying.
: At 5/13/2014 7:05:20 PM, Crescendo wrote:
: The difference is that the gay movement is currently pushing their will on Churches, as shown in the link to gay marriage in Denmark. Meanwhile, the Inquisition ended several centuries ago.
dylancatlow
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1/17/2014 7:46:42 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/17/2014 7:44:05 PM, Noumena wrote:
At 1/17/2014 7:36:39 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 1/17/2014 7:05:58 PM, Noumena wrote:
At 1/17/2014 4:03:40 PM, RoyLatham wrote:
At 1/17/2014 2:28:52 PM, Noumena wrote:

I take it you haven't bothered to educate yerself on communist philosophy and/or haven't read the explanations given by both FREEDO and myself concerning the different variations of communist thought.

I'm well of the utopian visions. The problem is that they are pure bunk, unfounded in any reality and never demonstrated.

Is that an argument?

Communism is exactly what is defined by the practice of communism, not by a fantastic vision.


I suppose coercive or violent business practices aren't really capitalism though.

He's essentially saying that communism in practice is defined by communism in practice. On what grounds could you deny that?

Because him, and other capitalists, would vehemently deny the same of capitalism. Hypocrisy is kinda annoying.

Roy wouldn't deny that capitalism in practice is defined by capitalism in practice, but he would deny that coercive and violent business practices could be called capitalist to begin with.
Noumena
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1/17/2014 7:49:49 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/17/2014 7:46:42 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 1/17/2014 7:44:05 PM, Noumena wrote:
At 1/17/2014 7:36:39 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 1/17/2014 7:05:58 PM, Noumena wrote:
At 1/17/2014 4:03:40 PM, RoyLatham wrote:
At 1/17/2014 2:28:52 PM, Noumena wrote:

I take it you haven't bothered to educate yerself on communist philosophy and/or haven't read the explanations given by both FREEDO and myself concerning the different variations of communist thought.

I'm well of the utopian visions. The problem is that they are pure bunk, unfounded in any reality and never demonstrated.

Is that an argument?

Communism is exactly what is defined by the practice of communism, not by a fantastic vision.


I suppose coercive or violent business practices aren't really capitalism though.

He's essentially saying that communism in practice is defined by communism in practice. On what grounds could you deny that?

Because him, and other capitalists, would vehemently deny the same of capitalism. Hypocrisy is kinda annoying.

Roy wouldn't deny that capitalism in practice is defined by capitalism in practice, but he would deny that coercive and violent business practices could be called capitalist to begin with.

And this is where the problem lies. Most communists say the same of Stalinist and Maoist practices.
: At 5/13/2014 7:05:20 PM, Crescendo wrote:
: The difference is that the gay movement is currently pushing their will on Churches, as shown in the link to gay marriage in Denmark. Meanwhile, the Inquisition ended several centuries ago.
RoyLatham
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1/17/2014 11:40:33 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/17/2014 7:05:58 PM, Noumena wrote:
At 1/17/2014 4:03:40 PM, RoyLatham wrote:
I'm well of the utopian visions. The problem is that they are pure bunk, unfounded in any reality and never demonstrated.

Is that an argument?

You didn't make an argument. You cited yourself and Freedo as authorities on economics, and asked a question. Are you familiar with Hayek and Von Mises?

I suppose coercive or violent business practices aren't really capitalism though.

Bank robbing is part of banking too. No business wants an illegal competitor, so illegal practices are outed. Laws are desired and there are competitive reasons to ensure they are enforced. Bad acts engender lawsuits. Under authoritarian rule, there is nothing you can do but obey. Capitalism succeeds only by offering customers something they want at a price people are will to pay.